So... What exactly was the problem in support items costing 350 gold?

S0kaX·Aug 10, 2018·19 votes·7,738 views

Why would you change it? Before I could take and for extra mana regen, but now I'm stuck with 2 potions... Why RITO, why?

35 Comments

Colgate GatorAug 10, 201819 votes

I mean, you answered your own question, they don't want supports to have access to such high regen from the get go (be it HP or mana), you just don't like it.

S0kaXAug 10, 20185 votes

I think pots are better at restoring hp than item 1006 . Also 2 mana (less or more) every 5 seconds isn't game breaking either.

KaìjuAug 10, 20184 votes

You think that until you stack on Manaflow Band and realize that it's busted.

S0kaXAug 10, 20185 votes

I've been playing with manaflow band and I haven't seen any busted combination.

OtterlyLostAug 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Postal Badger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ep9VE5Am,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-10T15:07:24.584+0000)

I mean, you answered your own question, they don't want supports to have access to such high regen from the get go (be it HP or mana), you just don't like it.

Not only that but melee carries bot were absolutely abusing relic in lane to get tons of extra healing and sustain. :/

BLIGHTBRINGERAug 10, 201814 votes

To be honest, I never saw anyone build item 3303 with item 1004 or a item 1006 . Having the support items cost 350g allowed them to not only have more potions than the rest of the other lanes but it also allowed them to poke out the enemy and win pretty much all trades because of their higher early sustain from 3 set of potions.

So I think having the price go up by 50g is more than reasonable, equivalent to 1 less potion.

S0kaXAug 10, 20186 votes

If 3 potions was so much of a big deal, then just make faerie charm 100 gold so I can still take it and everybody wins.

BLIGHTBRINGERAug 10, 20187 votes

In doing so you'd be practically changing the total cost of every item that uses Mana Regen, costing 50 less gold. It's not for me to decide if such decisions would be balanced, so I don't know what to reply to your suggestion.

S0kaXAug 10, 20184 votes

Just because item 1004 gets cheaper, it doesn't mean all items that build from it must get cheaper.

KaìjuAug 10, 20182 votes

But it does because you remove 50 gold from the total cost of the item overall. An item that costs 1000 gold and builds out of two 300 items is cheaper than one that builds out of one 875 item, because the daggers are much easier to get.

S0kaXAug 10, 20182 votes

and 2 minions worth of gold is really that game breaking

Ashe mage ADAug 10, 20188 votes

What are you smoking? The 50g can be easily re-added on the combine cost.

MarothennanAug 10, 20183 votes

cause only bronze theorists used the gold to buy faerie charm and rejuvenation bead, they barely make a difference in lane compared to pots edit: bronze theorists are really salty apparently

WeaselRuneAug 10, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ep9VE5Am,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-10T15:00:37.851+0000)

To be honest, I never saw anyone build with or a . Having the support items cost 350g allowed them to not only have more potions than the rest of the other lanes but it also allowed them to poke out the enemy and win pretty much all trades because of their higher early sustain from 3 set of potions.

So I think having the price go up by 50g is more than reasonable, equivalent to 1 less potion.

Im sorry... did you even think about what you wrote?

"it also allowed them to poke out the enemy and win pretty much all trades" part is total nonsense. If youre in a lane vs another support with item 2033 , how do both sides "win pretty much all trades?"

If both sides have the same potions, how do they poke eachother out?

If both sides have the same tools, why isnt it a break even? Your post is written from the perspective that only one side has this option, when in reality both sides have it, and yet you say it "win(s) pretty much all trades."

You swallowed Ritos propaganda, go ahead rage downvote me.

This change was SO people get poked out of lane. This was to lower sustain, and sustain is what counters poke. They want to increase the amount of low HP situations to force backs so one side gets ahead for shorter games, and to allow for more all ins on low HP bot lanes.

BLIGHTBRINGERAug 11, 20182 votes

Both marksman on both sides of the team will have 1 health potion (50g) assuming that they buy Doran's Blade (450g).

Where as before Supports were able to purchase 3 health potions (150g) due to their starter items being cheap (350g).

Think about this a little more carefully, who would win trades? a Marksman who has one Health Potion healing them up to 150 Health or a Support who has 3 Health Potions allowing them to heal up to 450 Health?

This was a big problem when the Marksman nerfs came live and where Supports were a lot stronger than them in the early laning phase, meaning they had higher damage than them since they had their base AD nerfed and on top of all that they deal even more damage because Marksman also received a nerf to their defensive stats.

I'm not swallowing Riot's anything, i'm just giving my opinion from my own experience in the Bot lane. I don't understand why it's such a big deal, it's literally just 50g more expensive. Though it can be argue-able since we are on the subject of 3 health potion purchasing, that Assassin's who start Long Sword with 3 health potions needing the same treatment as supports.

WeaselRuneAug 11, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ep9VE5Am,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2018-08-11T00:38:27.880+0000)

Both marksman on both sides of the team will have 1 health potion (50g) assuming that they buy Doran's Blade (450g).

Where as before Supports were able to purchase 3 health potions (150g) due to their starter items being cheap (350g).

Think about this a little more carefully, who would win trades? a Marksman who has one Health Potion healing them up to 150 Health or a Support who has 3 Health Potions allowing them to heal up to 450 Health?

This was a big problem when the Marksman nerfs came live and where Supports were a lot stronger than them in the early laning phase, meaning they had higher damage than them since they had their base AD nerfed and on top of all that they deal even more damage because Marksman also received a nerf to their defensive stats.

I'm not swallowing Riot's anything, i'm just giving my opinion from my own experience in the Bot lane. I don't understand why it's such a big deal, it's literally just 50g more expensive. Though it can be argue-able since we are on the subject of 3 health potion purchasing, that Assassin's who start Long Sword with 3 health potions needing the same treatment as supports.

I quoted your post so your numbers and math are up there, and you cant edit it and make up some other argument after I school you.

I mean... If you understood how off that crap was you would have been embarrassed to have written it.

Math: item 2003 150 HP

item 2031 TWO.... 2 charges, not 3. You wrote 3 down more than once so its clear you think refill gives 3 potions. They heal 125 each, totals 250.

item 2033 cost 500 (or refill 150 + 350 combine cost), it also heals 125 per charge, IT HAS 3 charges, so thats 375 HP so I dont know where youre getting 450 from. Unless you just assumed they had the same heal value and added up 3 item 2003 worth of healing and that would be 450... but then that would be you talking about something with assumptions, and I know you didnt do that...

Also we cant ignore the fact that ADCs start a Life steal item that aids in sustain. Now, who will win trades? Well with your fantasy sustain numbers it looks more in the supports favor... but again, both sides have supports. Both sides have life steal ADCs. One side somehow auto loses because both sides have the same items because.... I still cant follow your logic.

Also I checked your match history, and after two scrolls down, I mostly saw Varus, and an..... AD Lux, and an AD LeBlanc.... No refill potions. So this is clearly a case of someone "talking out of their ass, and pulling numbers from thin air," or at best guessing.

You shouldnt be arguing about this with anyone, your bad math, and misunderstanding of the items involved and clear bias of a person who builds AD Lux means all you can do is... well I think I said it, embarrass yourself.

NOW. All that said.

Its a problem because of two reasons. First.... I just realized this is wasted on you. Youve decided "SUPPORT SUSTAIN BAD," and all explanations will just be ignored. So for other people Ill give a basic summery instead of talking to a wall that cant be bothered to argue with correct numbers or charge counts of items...

First, it hits supports gold efficiency for no reason. It adds the 50g cost to their starting item to begin with, and forces them to either start with NO potions to save the gold, or buy 100g worth of potions, and then spend another 150g on a refill potion. They didnt just put supports back 50g, they put them back 150g (50g on the starting item, 100g on the level 1 potion buy)

Second, this weakens the bot lane (both sides), and this weakness makes it more vulnerable to roaming and ganks. A lane that if it loses puts 40% of the team in a hole and gives more pressure on the drake objective for the winning side. It does all this in the early game (right at the first items bought). These days games are being decided very early because of all the damage and snowballing. Setting back probably the lowest income role in the game 150g at the very beginning is pretty heavy handed.

BLIGHTBRINGERAug 11, 20181 votes

I honestly have no idea where you got the idea that I said that Refillible potions give 3 charges for starters.

Also we cant ignore the fact that ADCs start a Life steal item that aids in sustain. Now, who will win trades?

It's 3% lifesteal that is barely even noticeble unless you were Autoattacking for straight several minutes. The sustain is somewhat bad overall in my opinion that I sometimes switch to Cull as Varus because the healing you get from it (+3 life on-hit) is better when you have Rageblade making that +3 life on-hit trigger twice healing for +6 life instead.

Well with your fantasy sustain numbers

What fantasy numbers lol? One heath potion heals someone for 150 health, times that by 3 because you know they had 3 health potions before (before the changes to support item cost) it will give you a total of 450 health healed in total.

Also I checked your match history, and after two scrolls down, I mostly saw Varus, and an..... AD Lux, and an AD LeBlanc.... No refill potions.

I don't often buy refillable potions because Health Potion sustain is better. I choose to pay 50g for 150 health to be restored, where as you pay 150g for a total of 250 health to be restored, however I could still get better sustain for the same price of 150g, healing me up to 450 health which is almost double the amount of being healed. Though taking a refillable potion sometimes against a heavy poke lane seems to help out.

Additionally what's wrong with playing AD Lux and AD Leblanc, it's called having fun and trying something new.

instead of talking to a wall that cant be bothered

You do realise the same applies to you? Because you're the one who seems to be heated up about this, you might of misunderstood something here.

Second, this weakens the bot lane (both sides), and this weakness makes it more vulnerable to roaming and ganks. A lane that if it loses puts 40% of the team in a hole and gives more pressure on the drake objective for the winning side. It does all this in the early game (right at the first items bought). These days games are being decided very early because of all the damage and snowballing.

This is something I can agree with, see? There's no reason to not have a reasonable discussion.

WeaselRuneAug 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ep9VE5Am,comment-id=00020002000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-11T09:51:22.986+0000)

I honestly have no idea where you got the idea that I said that Refillible potions give 3 charges for starters.

It's 2% lifesteal that is barely even noticeble unless you were Autoattacking for straight several minutes. The sustain is somewhat bad overall in my opinion that I sometimes switch to Cull as Varus because the healing you get from it (+3 life on-hit) is better when you have Rageblade making that +3 life on-hit trigger twice healing for +6 life instead.

What fantasy numbers lol? One heath potion heals someone for 150 health, times that by 3 because you know they had 3 health potions before (before the changes to support item cost) it will give you a total of 450 health healed in total.

I don't often buy refillable potions because Health Potion sustain is better. I choose to pay 50g for 150 health to be restored, where as you pay 150g for a total of 250 health to be restored, however I could still get better sustain for the same price of 150g, healing me up to 450 health which is almost double the amount of being healed. Though taking a refillable potion sometimes against a heavy poke lane seems to help out.

Additionally what's wrong with playing AD Lux and AD Leblanc, it's called having fun and trying something new.

You do realise the same applies to you? Because you're the one who seems to be heated up about this, you might of misunderstood something here.

This is something I can agree with, see? There's no reason to not have a reasonable discussion.

I get that you think it has 3 charges because you write 3 charges every time you talk about potions in this chain.

In fact all I had to do was scroll up to find this qout from you:

"Where as before Supports were able to purchase 3 health potions (150g) due to their starter items being cheap (350g)."

Now... are you telling me that youre playing in games where its more common for the supports to start 3 item 2003 with their left over 150g, instead of item 2031 ? Is that what youre seeing more of?

Oh, and it would be a post from you if you didnt get your numbers wrong... again. item 1055 is 3% not 2%. Sure its 1% difference, but come on... Youre going to argue with me, AFTER I call you out on bad math, and still come back with another wrong number?

Well, one of us is clearly confused about whats going on in bot lane... at least by 1% I should think.

BLIGHTBRINGERAug 12, 20181 votes

I mentioned 3 health potions not 3 Refillible potion charges, you don't even have the evidence for that statement.

Also thanks for pointing out that it's 3% not 2% lifesteal on doran's blade.

Youre going to argue with me, AFTER I call you out on bad math, and still come back with another wrong number?

You're*

It's called not remembering the exact number. Calm yourself. I'm sorry that I can't be perfect because i'm human. Jeez.

Let's just drop this, it's clearly not going anywhere anyway.

NahDogSolRahnAug 11, 20181 votes

Except for those who went item 2003 item 2055 with supp item, they now get twice the sustain with no vision.

Somebody Love MeAug 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ep9VE5Am,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-10T15:00:37.851+0000)

To be honest, I never saw anyone build with or a . Having the support items cost 350g allowed them to not only have more potions than the rest of the other lanes but it also allowed them to poke out the enemy and win pretty much all trades because of their higher early sustain from 3 set of potions.

So I think having the price go up by 50g is more than reasonable, equivalent to 1 less potion.

But in exchange, a lot of the supports are naturally squishier than non-supports, with tanks and engage supports being exceptions, but they trade that for being mostly melee.