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Thornmail rework is perfect for every tank, except Rammus. I have a solution.

KuroCaliber··2 votes·672 views

So I see a lot of shit about the new thornmail, but the majority of complaints are from Rammus mains. The counter arguments in general seem valid. Tanks shouldn't do free damage for tanking, but they shouldn't be health pots. Grievous wounds on thornmail fixed a lot of these problems.

Now only Rammus used the damage on thornmail offensively. Because it synergized with defensive ball curl. Rammus before the thornmail changes would deal the damage return in addition to his own w damage. So I propose to do one of two things.

Either add scaling damage return to Rammus w active. Such as 5/10/15/20/25%, but remove the extra 5% armor ratio on w active, or increase the % armor damage passive from 10% to say 25% to make up for the change in DPS. Either change would probably bring Rammus back up.

Aside from him, no tank is intended to use thornmail for damage. It was made to counter A SINGLE healing item. Now that healing is very stackable, grievous wounds performs the job better.

/Tldr: buff Rammus not thornmail, if you use it for damage, you're using it for something that wasn't its intent.

6 Comments

TEA Nietzsche 1 votes

Rammus was in a great state last patch so let's wait how things are looking for the Armadillo in the current one.

KuroCaliber1 votes

It's more that people complain about losing damage on thornmail, when easy damage on tanks is what gets them over nerfed.

makkii1 votes

When considering the 1 second duration of GW the cuurent thornmail and old thornmail function exactly the same, the difference being that with old thornmail its damage-lifesteal= net health fluctuation,

With new thornmail its damage(much less)-lifesteal x 0.6= net health fluctuation.

Keeping this in mind, if you do the math old thornmail counters draintanking much more effectively.

To top it off, thornmail use to counter lifesteal, so adc's needed arnor pen and magic resist to counter tmail. Since most of the dmage has been converted to power budget for grievous wounds, adc's no longer are incentivized to build magic resist to counter thornmail, which means they just need to build more armor pen.

When you take the inferior numbers of the effect and compound the itemization issueon top of it, new tmail is CONSIDERABLY worse.

KuroCaliber2 votes

I'm fairly sure old thornmail could counter one healing item, not the several stacked that are very common in top fighters. Plus spirit visage amplified the healing as well, while blocking thornmail damage. ADCs may not need to build mr anymore, but being punished for doing damage is poor game design, so instead of plain damage, thornmail focuses on cutting sustain at its core.

makkii1 votes

{quoted}

I'm fairly sure old thornmail could counter one healing item, not the several stacked that are very common in top fighters. Plus spirit visage amplified the healing as well, while blocking thornmail damage. ADCs may not need to build mr anymore, but being punished for doing damage is poor game design, so instead of plain damage, thornmail focuses on cutting sustain at its core.

Most champs who use lifesteal including those used top never get more than two, and ive done the math and even with builds that have 2 lifesteal items or 35-40% lifesteal still isnt anywhere near enough to make new thornmail even on par with the old.

Also people werent building thorn to deal with ad bruisers top, it was to deal with adc's

In regards to the math, it is also true that now at full build 300 AD 60% crit with 0 Armor pen and base magic resist an adc can now not only fully nullify new thornmail but outheal it with a single lifesteal item provided you take warlords as a keystone.

If were gunna make tmail this weak the recipe needs to cost 300 less gold and other tank items need to be buffed to compensate.

You can say that "tanks doing damage for just standing there is bad design" but

1: considering lifesteal is always bought, and thornmail has almost always been 5th or 6th item, its always merely been a way to nullify healing, not do heavy damage while doing nothing.

2: right click auto attacks being the hardest scaling damage in the game is somehow better design?

Adc are op right now, tanks are UP, a weaker thornmail that incentivizes adc's to keep building fully offensive/standard rather than deviating build slightly for mercurial/maw or something with magic resist is the LAST THING tanks need right now.

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

Funny enough, Rammus still rushes thornmail after cinderhulk. furthermore, his winrate increased this patch.

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