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Runaan's Hurricane or Phantom Dancer on Caitlyn?

5000000000000000··2 votes·3,093 views

Her passive allows to do 150% damage every 5 AAs and ignores 50% of target's bonus armor. With Runaan's, that's ever 2 AAs (the on-hit effect applies, I confirmed) unless you're attacking in a bush, in which case that's every AA.

Every 150% damage on every 2 AA and armor penetration AND bunch of AoE damage sounds pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure if it's worth getting instead of another crit item.

I tried to do some math but I failed. Can someone help me?

EDIT: I'm doing some math again. I'll add a tl'dr after each section.

I'm gonna assume item 3031 item 3006 item 3072 item 3035 item 3026 for the build (most popular and highest winrate build minus PD), and add PD or Runaan's. I'll also ignore runes and masteries for the sake of simplicity, and assume level 18.

Caitlyn's Base Stats AD: 101 AS: 0.625+68% CC (Crit Chance): 0%

item 3046 build AD: 301 AS: 0.625+128%=1.425 CC: 55%

item 3085 AD: 301 AS: 0.625+173%=1.699 CC: 20% Unique Passive (Runaan's proc)

I'll calculate how much damage would be done over 5 AAs, and calculate DPS later by dividing it by how much time it would take to do that much damage. Also, I'll make multiple cases for whether passive crits or not. I'm assuming 3 crits for PD (55% rounded up to 60%) and 2 passive procs for Runaan's (2.5 rounded down to 2).

item 3046 DPS (case 1) 3 crits: 3012.53=2257.5 1 regular attack: 3011=301 1 non-crit passive: 3011.5=451.5 Total: 3010/3.509 seconds=~858 DPS

item 3046 DPS (case 2) 2 crits: 3012.52=1505 2 regular attack: 3012=602 1 crit passive: 3011.5*2.5=1128.75 Total: 3235.75/3.509 seconds=~922 DPS

item 3085 DPS (case 1) 3 regular attack: 3013=903 1 regular passive: 3011.5=451.5 1 crit passive: 3011.52.5=1128.75 Total: 2483.25/2.943 seconds=~844 DPS

item 3085 DPS (case 2) 2 regular attack: 3012=602 1 crit: 3012.5=752.5 2 non-crit passive: 3011.52=903 Total: 2257.5/2.943 seconds=~767 DPS

tl;dr: In terms of raw damage, PD build does much more damage.

What if we account for armor? Let's say the enemy has base armor of 90 and bonus armor of 150, which is approximately 2 armor items. More armor they buy, more damage your passive will do. This means the enemy will have total of 240 armor. With item 3035, 35% of the armor is ignored, so that's total of 156 armor. The passive ignores 50% of bonus armor, so with the passive, that's 165*.65=107.25 armor. 156 armor reduces physical damage by ~61% (39% goes through), and 107.25 armor reduces physical damage by ~52% (48% goes through). If the enemy builds more armor, Runaan's build will be less affected by than PD build.

item 3046 DPS (case 1) 3 crits: 3012.53=2257.5 reduced to 880 1 regular attack: 3011=301 reduced to 117.39 1 non-crit passive: 3011.5=451.5 reduced to 216.72 Total damage to tank: 1214.11/3.509 seconds=346 DPS

item 3046 DPS (case 2) 2 crits: 3012.52=1505 reduced to 587 2 regular attack: 3012=602 reduced to 234.78 1 crit passive: 3011.5*2.5=1128.75 reduced to 541.8 Total damage to tank: 1363.58/3.509 seconds=389 DPS

item 3085 DPS (case 1) 3 regular attack: 3013=903 reduced to 352.17 1 regular passive: 3011.5=451.5 reduced to 216.72 1 crit passive: 3011.52.5=1128.75 reduced to 541.8 Total damage to tank: 1110.69/2.943 seconds=377 DPS

item 3085 DPS (case 2) 2 regular attack: 3012=602 reduced to 234.78 1 crit: 3012.5=752.5 reduced to 293.475 2 non-crit passive: 3011.52=903 reduced to 433.44 Total damage to tank: 961.695/2.943 seconds=326 DPS

tl;dr: So even if the enemy is tanky, PD build does more damage. The gap is much smaller now, so with more armor, Runaan's may do more DPS to someone with, say, 200 bonus armor (300 total armor).

What if we account for Runaan's bolt procs? The goal of ADC is to do consistent damage, and that isn't necessarily single-target. Consider that the bolts will most likely hit more squishy targets instead of tanks.

item 3046 DPS (case 1) 3 crits: 3012.53=2257.5 1 regular attack: 3011=301 1 non-crit passive: 3011.5=451.5 Total: 3010/3.509 seconds=~858 DPS

item 3046 DPS (case 2) 2 crits: 3012.52=1505 2 regular attack: 3012=602 1 crit passive: 3011.5*2.5=1128.75 Total: 3235.75/3.509 seconds=~922 DPS

item 3085 DPS (case 1) 3 regular attack: 3013=903 1 regular passive: 3011.5=451.5 1 crit passive: 3011.52.5=1128.75 Runaan's bolts: (10+0.5*301)*10=1605 Total: 4088.25/2.943 seconds=~1389 DPS

item 3085 DPS (case 2) 2 regular attack: 3012=602 1 crit: 3012.5=752.5 2 non-crit passive: 3011.52=903 Runaan's bolts: (10+0.5*301)*10=1605 Total: 3862.5/2.943 seconds=~1312 DPS

tl;dr: total damage is much better with Runaan's, although single target damage is still bad.

11 Comments

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Thing is, that bonus AD and armor pen stacks with the bonus damage from a critical strike.

So yeah, PD is better, especially since they nerfed IE.

asamu2 votes

PD. Runaan's isn't worth building ever on most ADCs.

Hedønist2 votes

Phantom 100% the only adc that gets runaans is kalista

Prospector Pete1 votes

Phantom Dancer would probably be better.

Linna Excel1 votes

What's the rest of your build?

50000000000000001 votes

Let's assume the most played/winrate build, item 3031 item 3006 item 3046 item 3072 item 3035 item 3026. I want to switch out PD for Runaan's. I'm trying to do some maths right now.

Linna Excel1 votes

If you don't need the GA, you can drop that.

Here are two rules of thumb I have about hurricanes on ADCs

  1. If you kit and build has 2 on hit effects (vayne's bolts don't count), hurricane is worth considering. If you've only got one, it's meh at best.
  2. If your team lacks reliable wave clear, or you want/need to split push, then you want to get a hurricane on your ADC.

Now while hurricane does charge up Cait's passive faster, that in itself may not be enough to justify getting it regularly but you still might want it as a situational item. Now if you dropped GA for a cleaver because you've got an AD mid, top, and jungler, then yes get a hurricane.

50000000000000001 votes

What if I get item 3153 in place of item 3072?

Runaan's bolts will do much more damage that way, and I won't be losing much lifesteal because bork bolts apply lifesteal from bork (tested).

Linna Excel1 votes

A few months ago I would have said sure. Today not so much. BORK's passive gets weaker with every hit and it lacks the AD, life steal, and shield that BT has. I like bork on champs that don't need to build raw damage stats so much to do damage like Shyvana or Irelia, maybe Vi if you are going a more damage oriented build, but for most ADCs I'm more on the fence than I used to be about it.

BORK's damage is very front loaded. That means you need to be able to finish a fight with your base damage more than with other items. It's good if the other team has a lot of tanks and a lot of health, but it's not quite a core item unless you are vayne. It's also good if you need to use the active to slow a target.

Bork is probably better on ADCs that scale on AD and AS. Caitlyn is one of them so it's not terrible on her and you can consider it. However I'm starting to think in a vacuum, for ADCs, that bork works best as a supplimental item to BT.

67chrome1 votes

Runaan's Hurricane or Phantom Dancer on Caitlyn?

In my experience, you only get 1 Hurricane shot every-other attack in most PvP situations, the side-bolts are only really reliable vs. minions. The main advantage of Cait is being as far from danger as possible after-all, even with her range it's not like she's firing a melee-range spray at everyone.

So - rather than 1 headshot every 7 AA's, it's more 1 every 4 - which only really works out to 12.5% boost in overall DPS vs. no bonus-armor foes. Which, realistically, are usually the ones you want to down ASAP.

PD insuring 60% of your AA's are critical strikes with IE's bonus (on top of the 10% crit damage mastery point vs. non-tanks) is a pretty difficult thing to pass up. It's also worth noting PD offers a smattering of movement speed.

Ahurath1 votes

You don't want to phantom dancer on adcs since that delays your third item spike when you become relevant in the game, unless you are super fed then you go for pd.

But if I have to choose then it's obviously going to be the pd for better single target dps.

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