Just because you can find ways to counter someone doesn't mean they're suddenly balanced

Atuko·Jan 10, 2015·42 votes·2,793 views

Just because you can handle them doesn't mean others can

Take for example, people always try to stick up for Akali's balance by saying "oh just bring a pink ward problem solved" No, that doesn't solve the fact that she's has three point and click targeted dashes that she can utilize in a high burst combo pretty much at any point in the game, plus an insane amount of spellvamp. (this isn't an "Akali is op" thread I swear)

People try to excuse the balance of champs by making it seem as if it's just the players fault that they got wrecked by the champion, and not the balance of the actual champion.

Another example of this I've been seeing is , apparently now people see Yasuo as not a problem at all just because high elo has been dealing with him pretty well, and most of the responses I see towards people making Yasuo is op threads is "oh Yasuo is only op if you're bronze 5" Well how about the fact that he's a ball of free stats. Double crit chance, 50% armor shred and an ability that basically allows him to negate all harass being thrown at him.

But no, it's totally the players fault.

50 Comments

AtukoJan 10, 20158 votes

inb4 you look in my match history and see that I made this after I face Yasuo and assume I'm butthurt because I lost to Yasuo, I couldn't care less about that match, facing Yasuo made me remember this opinion of mine that I wanted to share, and bam, here it is.

Because I know someone was gonna do it, there's always that guy.

SwordSeraphJan 10, 20154 votes

I don't necessarily want to be that guy but upon closer inspection on that match the yasuo had 301 cs while you only had 127. He also went 13/20/4 leading me to believe that alongside your score of 11/13/9 that you may have been his only source of kills. That being said, simply speculation.

AtukoJan 11, 20151 votes

Meaning what?

JunkοJan 11, 20153 votes

Meaning that it's entirely your fault he stomped you

AtukoJan 11, 20151 votes

I literally just said in the post above that this topic was not made because I was upset that I got beaten by a Yasuo, did you even read it?

JunkοJan 11, 20151 votes

Meaning what?

I gave you the answer

asktiksJan 11, 20151 votes

o rly???

pray do tell how DO you stop yasuo from killing you as say ....orianna?

be half the map away is the only consistent way ive found to avoid him or zed, there is literally NOTHING that you can do except run away everytime, and if hes looking for you, you wont even be able to level , so again, how is it his fault?

JunkοJan 11, 20152 votes

a good Orianna will shit all over Yasuo, he goes to you? you shield yourself and use ER, he just took all your burst now

AltricadJan 10, 20156 votes

^ THis. People think that just because you can kill someone, doesn't mean their balanced. For example, It's true that Zed ult can be blocked numerous ways, but late late game, he can kill squishes anyway with just his qe-auto combo ( 500 AD hurts a lot you know, since his passive gives him 25% bonus AD). Same was true for Khazix , he could insta gib squishes due to how hard he scales. But, Kha'zix appeared as a more glaring issue because none of his abilities could be rendered useless item 3157 with just the click of a button. THis guy was nerfed Talon because he prevented that from being used for ONE second.

What happens is, people see that ONE ( repeat 1 ) characteristic of a champ can be outplayed, and believe they are balanced, even if they're whole kit is weak in the end.

This guy Vladimir tons had spell vamp like Akali back in season 2 and just because his "counters" item 3165 ( executioners culing) were not that common/meta, he got nerfed to oblivion.

Fiddlesticks - His q deals ZERO damage, but they decided to nerf the duration of the cc anyway, meanwhile Morgana can keep the 3 second cc while simultaneously being a nuke. Lissandra - has a passive that makes abilities cost 0 mana from time to time, but in return has her main damage spell cost tons of mana along with low mana regen.

LeeSin - Completely kicks out tanks in the jungle early game ( missing health WHY ), and late game behaves like a tank with his peel and cc. Balanced, because "he falls off". Meanwhile, Pantheon another early game champion has his ulti scale on AP. Who actually falls off more?

It's sad, but people will never look at a champion from a complete perspective. They'll see one defining characteristic and believe a champion is OP/balanced.

The Red WardenJan 10, 20152 votes

Lissandra was actually the only "mage" that didn't have her mana standardized like all the others. (It would have increased her mana regen)

Lee Sin mains will just say that he needs to be op because of his Q, even though his Q is one of the fastest moving skill shots in game and has a decently large hitbox.

Ariel the CruelJan 11, 20152 votes

Lissandra was actually the only "mage" that didn't have her mana standardized like all the others. (It wiuld have increased her mana regen)

Lissandra had the lowest mana regen in the game both before and after the standardization (she ties with Darius at lvl 18). So it's likely intentional.

Though I'd still like to know the logic behind her passive. "We'll give you a passive, but nerf your kit so that you can't live without it!" Not that her passive is weak by any means. It's one of the primary reasons she can survive against assassins (SURPRISE! free ult!). But it's implementation seems counter-intuitive. Especially when Riot has stated they intended for her to be a poke mage. (Because that wasn't a major design fail. . .)

EDIT: Deleted a double post.

EDIT: Diana's passive falls into a similar bracket of being counter-intuitive. She gains bonus attack speed. And deals bonus AoE damage every third auto-attack. But shares having the second lowest tier of base attack speed with the like of Anivia and brand (Singed alone has the lowest). On top of that, she's a burst assassin. I just don't get it.

MagicalMacabreJan 11, 20151 votes

I know! That's always bugged me. It's like "woo hoo" my passive grants me to have about as much mana as I should have had in the first place. They should just raise Lissandras mana regen to the standard level and give her a completely different passive altogether.

Ariel the CruelJan 12, 20151 votes

Her passive is still good. I'd be find if she kept it. Her effective mp5 is actually really high when optimized. Though the shield idea Riot mentioned they were playing with might be more interesting.

It's just the implementation that seems awkward. If she tries to poke, she goes OOM super fast. Then stays that way thanks to her low regen. So she's forced to play around it. Yet the only time she ever truly buys it back, is when she she does a full combo in a team fight. At which point, she's only getting a free Q anyways (everything else will be on CD).

Champion SkinJan 10, 20151 votes

Well the problem with Morgana and CC is that most of her damage is tied to how long you can CC someone You could nerf her CC but that could potentially nerf her damage too much you could make her W deal it's damage faster (and over a shorter amount of time) but this might make just dropping W under someone without hitting Q first deal too much damage without giving it any counterplay

Differences between Fiddle fear and Morgana Snare

Advantages with morgana snare Longer range Longer duration Deals damage

Disadvantages Enemy can fight back (if they have enough range to do so) It is a skill shot (and thus can miss)

ReyvaxJan 10, 201514 votes

I don't think you understand anything honestly.

Talon got his silence removed because he could chain it with his ult, preventing you from ever using any ability on him until he had finished his whole combo.

Vlad got nerfed because he was obnoxious as hell. If you think he's unplayable now you don't know much.

Morgana's q and Fid's q have nothing in common. Fid's is hard CC and is TARGETED. Morgana's is a slow moving skillshot.

And Pantheon's ult isn't something you really use to nuke people anyway. It could not deal damage at all and still be efficient. Who cares that it scales off ap?

This is why I have trouble with a lot of people's opinions about balance. They are often just not knowledgeable about what they're talking about.

Ashes AriseJan 11, 20155 votes

Oh man... Here we go again with another person that doesn't understand the "ball of stats" term. Ball of stats has nothing to do with champions having passive stats in their abilities. Ball of stats is where a bunch of stats are pumped into base stats to compensate for a very underwhelming kit. Shyvana is the best example.

Joe DreddJan 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Just because you can handle them doesn't mean others can

Take for example, people always try to stick up for Akali's balance by saying "oh just bring a pink ward problem solved" No, that doesn't solve the fact that she's has three point and click targeted dashes that she can utilize in a high burst combo pretty much at any point in the game, plus an insane amount of spellvamp. (this isn't an "Akali is op" thread I swear)

People try to excuse the balance of champs by making it seem as if it's just the players fault that they got wrecked by the champion, and not the balance of the actual champion.

Another example of this I've been seeing is , apparently now people see Yasuo as not a problem at all just because high elo has been dealing with him pretty well, and most of the responses I see towards people making Yasuo is op threads is "oh Yasuo is only op if you're bronze 5" Well how about the fact that he's a ball of free stats. Double crit chance, 50% armor shred and an ability that basically allows him to negate all harass being thrown at him.

But no, it's totally the players fault.

Ball of stats? Yasuo base stats are bad, he's the only person with a conditional ult, unless you count kalista which is simply being in range, and his windwall has a 20% uptime. Also, he has 50% Bonus armor pen. Not actual armor pen.

Stars ShaperJan 11, 20154 votes

The fact that Yasuo is not countered... he is nullified from those methods makes your 4th paragraph a huge lie.

Edit: Also your knowledge of Yasuo mechanics is kindergarden level.

JustMyBassCannonJan 11, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Just because you can handle them doesn't mean others can

Just because you can't handle them doesn't mean they're imbalanced, either.

"oh Yasuo is only op if you're bronze 5" Well how about the fact that he's a ball of free stats. Double crit chance, 50% armor shred and an ability that basically allows him to negate all harass being thrown at him.

50% of bonus Armor, the doubled crit chance is at the cost of a lot of damage, and Wind Wall blocks less than half of the spells in League of Legends. But why bother with details when you can bitch at Riot, and at the players defending Riot?

Hellish ProphecyJan 12, 20151 votes

Well, I have to defend OP here. 50% of bonus armor rends all tanks absolutely useless during this time. And if you try the "stack HP" excuse BOTRK destroys that in seconds. The doubled crit chance is at the cost of 90% crit damage instead of 100%. Sure it can make a big damage difference, right? But IE and early game where he is buying Shiv means he has 60-80% crit chance (iforgot the amount of crit chance Shiv gets) combined with attack speed meaning his AA and Q is going to be hitting you for 200-300 damage before you are level 9. Wind Wall blocks ALL projectiles. Including AA. So champions like Ezreal, Ashe, almost every ranged are going through Hell if he has to be focused or fought, not to mention Anivia, and several other mages. That's two entire classes being insta-screwed by someone with decent knowledge of Yas with ONE ABILITY. I AM NOT STATING HE IS OP. There are other champs with more jaw-dropping advantages that are nowhere close to OP. Yas is just one of the most annoying champs to fight, but certainly not my personal worst.

JustMyBassCannonJan 13, 2015

[{quoted}](name=Its Not Ogre Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZlk7kOs,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2015-01-12T13:15:42.497+0000)

Well, I have to defend OP here. 50% of bonus armor rends all tanks absolutely useless during this time. And if you try the "stack HP" excuse BOTRK destroys that in seconds.

Leaving aside the fact that melee carries cannot function without innate anti-tank measures, I still don't see Yasuo players picking up BotRK very often. Something about Ravenous Hydra providing much more bang for his buck. Not that I'm judging the players who do pick it up, I can understand the strategic advantages of BotRK over RH.

The doubled crit chance is at the cost of 90% crit damage instead of 100%. Sure it can make a big damage difference, right? But IE and early game where he is buying Shiv means he has 60-80% crit chance (I forgot the amount of crit chance Shiv gets) combined with attack speed meaning his AA and Q is going to be hitting you for 200-300 damage before you are level 9.

Nononono, it's not "90% crit damage instead of 100%" damage. When Yasuo lands a crit, the total damage is reduced by 10%. With his Q, it's by 25% instead. Instead of 200%, he crits for 180% (200 * 0.9 = 180) or 150% on his Q (200 * 0.75 = 150). Infinity Edge still provides a substantial boost, giving him 225% damage (187.5% on his Q), but it's still significant enough reduction that his DPS ends up being lower when compared to Yi and Tryndamere.

Shiv and IE both grant +20%, for a total 40%, which his passive doubles to 80%, just so you know.

Anyway, Yasuo's passive was very well-designed. The increased Crit Chance gives him a mid-game spike in DPS that allows him to push an advantage, but the reduced damage makes his late-game DPS not especially outstanding when compared to a less complex melee carry.

Wind Wall blocks ALL projectiles. Including AA. So champions like Ezreal, Ashe, almost every ranged are going through Hell if he has to be focused or fought, not to mention Anivia, and several other mages. That's two entire classes being insta-screwed by someone with decent knowledge of Yas with ONE ABILITY.

Wind Wall blocks all projectiles.

First, not all ranged attacks/spells are projectiles. Yes, the majority of Marksmen attacks are projectiles, and there are enough ultimate spells that are projectiles for Yasuo to be permanently blacklisted by pretty much everyone in League, but there are a lot of spells that bypass it entirely. Arcanopulse, Conflagration, Rune Cage, Incinerate, Noxious Blast, Lay Waste, I could keep listing specific spells but the point is that there are a lot of spells that bypass Wind Wall. I actually got bored one time, went through every spell in the game, tallied up a list of all ranged spells, and found that the ratio of projectiles to non-projectiles was very nearly 1:1. If I excluded gap closers, there are slightly more projectiles; if I included them, there are slightly more non-projectiles.

Second, while it's true you can't shoot through Wind Wall, it's stationary. You can either back off (if it's not in the very middle of a team fight), or you can reposition so that it's not a problem. The only time you can't deal with Wind Wall is if Yasuo specifically uses it to block an in-flight shot, which is the same thing as Kayle ulting a teammate who's about to take a kill shot, or Sivir activating her spell shield and running over traps on purpose. Well, I guess you could also count being locked in position by CC or terrain, but that's like saying you were forced to target Rammus because of Taunt.

I AM NOT STATING HE IS OP. There are other champs with more jaw-dropping advantages that are nowhere close to OP. Yas is just one of the most annoying champs to fight, but certainly not my personal worst.

Yeah, I know; like you said, you were defending the OP's statements, even though they were even less informed than yours.

I'm just on the side of presenting all the data involved. A lot of people in League's community seem to enjoy looking at a champion's kit, specifically only absorbing the strengths of the kit, then calling them overpowered because things do stuff. Or they'll look at a mechanic and ask how a champion could possibly be balanced with that mechanic (but they'll conveniently ignore every single valid point that explains why it's balanced).

It's not like Riot is perfect, but too many people give Riot absolutely no credit when it comes to the game's balance, while conveniently ignoring the penalties that come with the strengths that are supposedly overpowered. It's particularly amusing when you can name exactly what every professional player would do against a particular champion, and they will still say it doesn't matter, the champion needs to be nerfed to the point of being useless, and there's a high chance of being "called out" for defending that champion's design, "because you probably play them."

It's a song and dance with only one verse and three steps, playing on loop for five years.

Hellish ProphecyJan 13, 20151 votes

True melee carries usually must have SOME anti-tank to fight against them....but I'll go more into detail on his armor pen. It lasts 15 seconds. Most teamfights are over before 10 alone. I'm surprised you don't see Yas pick up a BOTRK too often. The AS and AD combined with the passive make it very viable on Yas and he becomes very dangerous. I suppose you are right on his crit chance, but nontheless he could easily have 100% crit chance before 25 minutes depending on how the match goes for him. This can be very, very dangerous regardless of your build. No, it does not require him to be fed. And though you state it doesn't block Lay Waste, ect. ect.. The point still stands: it blocks ALL PROJECTILES. Projectiles being the key word here. And of course the ideal thing would be to lock him down with CC, but what if the ADC is not caught in? They managed to avoid it or the CC AoE or such doesn't have enough range to catch the other carries with it. If the carry doesn't get you, the hyper-carry will. Also going back there are a lot of spells that bypass WindWall, but there are just as much that get blocked. Yet you did state that. And teamfights determine the course of the match USUALLY. And in heavy ones you have no time to re-position, and backing off allows the enemy team to recuperate. I like to look at a champion's weaknesses and strengths myself, but I have to PLAY the champion to understand them. Ex: Akali, who I also think isn't necessarily OP, used to be the bane of League for me, after playing her, it's no problem taking care of her and finding out when to do what. I would NOT say Yas is balanced, not at all. But if someone has the slightest knowledge with him, he gives a fed Poppy a run for her money. (over exaggerated)

JustMyBassCannonJan 13, 20151 votes

Yes, I'm aware that the ArPen lasts 15 seconds. I've often thought that duration was a bit excessive, but there are a lot of comparable effects. Yi's Highlander lasts 10 seconds minimum, Vayne's Final Hour lasts 8-12 seconds, and neither of them require a primer to activate.

Yes, I'm aware that it blocks all projectiles. The person playing against Yasuo should be aware of this, and should be wary about throwing their spells.

Yes, he can have 100% Crit at 25 minutes on a normal build without excessive gold. He was designed to do that. Jayce was designed to hit the AS cap without items. Alistar was designed to break CC without Quicksilver Sash. Repeat ad nauseam; champions are designed to do things.

If the team playing against Yasuo doesn't have enough CC to split between more than one target, the composition was not very well-made. It's the same story if any champion gets out of control because the team didn't have enough CC.

You can tell me that a heavy team fight is hard to navigate, but the Marksman's advantage is kiting and orb-walking.

A player who knows what they are doing is dangerous almost regardless of the champion. The only reason Yasuo is one of the few on the forefront of peoples' minds is because he is a relatively new champion whose kit has numerous, newly-designed mechanics that formed a strong champion. Because his strengths, like almost every new champion, were different from the normal champion picks, a lot of players did not react properly in facing him, and ended up losing games to him.

The wisest course of action would be to study how Yasuo works, so you can learn to counter-play him. Never let it be said that the majority of this community was wise.

Hellish ProphecyJan 13, 20151 votes

It's simple but frustrating to fight a Yas whether you know how to counter him or not. And note I said anyone with the slightest knowledge. Not necessarily "good" with the champion. I myself know how to deal with a Yasuo, and hilariously love using a Poppy or Taric to do so. Now the excuse "just counter-pick him" can't exactly apply to the sittuation because people like me (after playing solo ranked) refuse to jump into ranked games except if I am duo'd or ranked team. Upon his release yes his kit and mechanics were completely knew, and Riot should have realized at the start that almost no-one is going to play against Yas a few times and immediatly know how to counter him, so he shouldn't have been nerfed. his stats and power should have been low at the start, and then buff him a bit to around the level he is now. And from my experience from teamfights it's not the fact that we don't have enough CC it's the fact that we can't have EVERYBODY carrying some EVERY game. It's very costly in some way to run into the game with every member (inc or exclude the ADC) running CC as something else is lost in the process. But moving on. From my own experience in teamfights IF WE ARE FIGHTING ENEMY YAS for the sake of argument, that first focus is to (at least) control anyone they have with an AoE knockup, the assassin so he lays off our ADC for a few seconds just in case we MUST focus someoen else before them, then we all focus the carry. I can't go much into detail, but even allowing yourself to get knocked-up by an AoE with a Yas on either side can result in a loss of that crucial fight. You of course know what Yas's ultimate does in terms of rendering the target(s) useless for a crucial amount of time, and you of course know the buff he gains.

InvalidGuestJan 10, 20153 votes

watch out, the zed mains are going to come after you

AtukoJan 10, 20157 votes

THE COLD NEVER BOTHERED ME ANYWAY

SeargentAnusJan 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Just because you can handle them doesn't mean others can

Take for example, people always try to stick up for Akali's balance by saying "oh just bring a pink ward problem solved" No, that doesn't solve the fact that she's has three point and click targeted dashes that she can utilize in a high burst combo pretty much at any point in the game, plus an insane amount of spellvamp. (this isn't an "Akali is op" thread I swear)

People try to excuse the balance of champs by making it seem as if it's just the players fault that they got wrecked by the champion, and not the balance of the actual champion.

Another example of this I've been seeing is , apparently now people see Yasuo as not a problem at all just because high elo has been dealing with him pretty well, and most of the responses I see towards people making Yasuo is op threads is "oh Yasuo is only op if you're bronze 5" Well how about the fact that he's a ball of free stats. Double crit chance, 50% armor shred and an ability that basically allows him to negate all harass being thrown at him.

But no, it's totally the players fault.

Yasuo is fine. He is a high skill, high risk, and high reward champion.

{quoted}

I don't think you understand anything honestly.

Talon got his silence removed because he could chain it with his ult, preventing you from ever using any ability on him until he had finished his whole combo.

Vlad got nerfed because he was obnoxious as hell. If you think he's unplayable now you don't know much.

Morgana's q and Fid's q have nothing in common. Fid's is hard CC and is TARGETED. Morgana's is a slow moving skillshot.

And Pantheon's ult isn't something you really use to nuke people anyway. It could not deal damage at all and still be efficient. Who cares that it scales off ap?

This is why I have trouble with a lot of people's opinions about balance. They are often just not knowledgeable about what they're talking about.

It can be difficult balance wise as most people look at things very flat. They tend to look at flat damage, over utility.

I'll use LeeSin as an example as I actually think he is balanced right now. I'll probably be beheaded for that comment, but hell I'll say why. Lee has tons of mobility, this is what he is known for and why he is hated. He is who is blamed for mobility creep. While his mobility may be a bit extreme it is needed for him to function as a champion. Lets say lees W was replaced by a damage buff. This would help his assassination, but it would mean that he only has one movement ability. This ability can only be used on Monsters/Minions/Champions causing for him to practically lose all mobility. He'd be able to initiate easily, deal a ton of damage easily, but he'd instantly blow up with no true escape.

RogueWillJan 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo is fine. He is a high skill, high risk, and high reward champion.

It can be difficult balance wise as most people look at things very flat. They tend to look at flat damage, over utility.

I'll use as an example as I actually think he is balanced right now. I'll probably be beheaded for that comment, but hell I'll say why. Lee has tons of mobility, this is what he is known for and why he is hated. He is who is blamed for mobility creep. While his mobility may be a bit extreme it is needed for him to function as a champion. Lets say lees W was replaced by a damage buff. This would help his assassination, but it would mean that he only has one movement ability. This ability can only be used on Monsters/Minions/Champions causing for him to practically lose all mobility. He'd be able to initiate easily, deal a ton of damage easily, but he'd instantly blow up with no true escape.

You just described this champion Diana She only has one mobility and it can only be used on monster/creeps/champions. She has no problem initiating but so much trouble escaping or recovering after assassinating the carries. if lee is balanced to you this girl needs some love.

Ariel the CruelJan 11, 20152 votes

To be fair. Diana has a bigger shield. Less utility. Less DPS. Less base damage. And actually has to worry about running out of mana.

So what has she done to deserve and escape? Clearly Lee has earned his by having tier 2 move speed.

RogueWillJan 11, 20153 votes

What she has done? you just said it yourself. Diana is trading, less utility, less dps, less base damage and no ability to dash ally minions or champions just for a slightly stronger shield that is only stronger if you land all 3 spheres. Lee is by far no balanced, right now he was either too much raw damage or too much mobility (take your pick) making him really too strong without any kind of trade off. You go in but fight went downhill, just e away. You couldn't capitalize early game just build tanky and still provide tons of utility to your team mates. The only real downside of playing lee is that its mechanics are a bit hard on new players but after a few games with him there is no trade off on playing him. He is just too good.

Ariel the CruelJan 11, 20152 votes

Hm.... perhaps the sarcasm wasn't clear enough. My bad.

P.S.: Tier 2 move speed means he out-runs 90% of champions in game. In addition to him having 2 dashes, a knock-back/AoE knock-up, and a slow.

agbudarJan 11, 20151 votes

I'll use as an example as I actually think he is balanced right now. I'll probably be beheaded for that comment, but hell I'll say why. Lee has tons of mobility, this is what he is known for and why he is hated. He is who is blamed for mobility creep. While his mobility may be a bit extreme it is needed for him to function as a champion. Lets say lees W was replaced by a damage buff. This would help his assassination, but it would mean that he only has one movement ability. This ability can only be used on Monsters/Minions/Champions causing for him to practically lose all mobility. He'd be able to initiate easily, deal a ton of damage easily, but he'd instantly blow up with no true escape.

ow dude wtf i think he is balanced as well... but i dont think you are right about how you go on explaining this tons of chamions have what you describe here XinZhao MonkeyKing Irelia MasterYi Pantheon Akali all of em are viable champs too so there is no need for lee sin to be 2x as good as this. its not his damage thats the concern its the mobility combined with high lvl play that makes this champ impossible to deal with honestly removing the ward/champion jump and replacing this with something that shields/damages people would be good.

SeargentAnusJan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

ow dude wtf i think he is balanced as well... but i dont think you are right about how you go on explaining this tons of chamions have what you describe here all of em are viable champs too so there is no need for lee sin to be 2x as good as this. its not his damage thats the concern its the mobility combined with high lvl play that makes this champ impossible to deal with honestly removing the ward/champion jump and replacing this with something that shields/damages people would be good.

This is the issue LeeSin -CC tied to ult, very easy to kill if his mobility is down. XinZhao CC tied to 3 AA's and ability activation MonkeyKing Invisibility, and clone to mitigate damage Irelia Stun on enemy with higher HP MasterYi Reduced damage and HP regen on W Pantheon Stun is tied with gapcloser. Really in the same boat as lee though. Akali Invisibility, and MS on W.

All of these champions have a way to either mitigate or stun the target without using their ult. Lee Doesn't have this, and its why he has his mobility W. His Shield could be buffed allowing for more damage mitigation if people really want his mobility down.

SchneidRproJan 11, 20153 votes

Stop listing yasuo's strengths and list me his weaknesses.

he is easily kitable without minions his damage is rng till he gets 100% crit his shield is nothing takes like one auto cant use his own ult reliably

DirewolfiezJan 11, 20152 votes

So...what you're saying is this: "Ignore his crazy strengths because he has a few weaknesses!"

SwordSeraphJan 11, 20155 votes

So what you are saying is ignore his weaknesses for his strengths? Of course someone sounds strong when ONLY their upsides are taken into account.

RogueWillJan 10, 20152 votes

Seems like you are having problems playing against assassin mages/mid laners, and this is mainly due to last season love for poker mid laners why are so bad against assassin due to being glass canons. Akali and yasuo has tons of counterplayed but doesn't mean they can be counterplayed by every champ, that would beat up the purpose of counterpicking. Yasuo alone doesn't do as well against other assassin, since his nerfs other assassins eat him alive unless he gets a successful early game gank and he continues to snowball. Assassin also does poorly against brust mages, which are unpopular due to last season poker dominance (try playing an annie agaist an orianna or a ziggs, you won't be able to touch them). If you compare them against your favorite champions they are proabably unbalanced, but against the total chmpion pool they are a bit balanced. You have to remember assassins are high risk/high rewards, if you don't do well early is sorta hard to catch up.

JunkοJan 11, 20152 votes

The only problem with them is that while you can deal with them in lane, you can only deal with them if YOU are against them. if your mid lane feeds them 10 kills you can't do anything about it but accept a free loss.

RaptameiJan 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Just because you can handle them doesn't mean others can

Take for example, people always try to stick up for Akali's balance by saying "oh just bring a pink ward problem solved" No, that doesn't solve the fact that she's has three point and click targeted dashes that she can utilize in a high burst combo pretty much at any point in the game, plus an insane amount of spellvamp. (this isn't an "Akali is op" thread I swear)

People try to excuse the balance of champs by making it seem as if it's just the players fault that they got wrecked by the champion, and not the balance of the actual champion.

Yes, but does she have a high diamond/pro win rate?

The only thing that matters is: does the champion win more than expected when played by pros?

"She has three dashes and therefore I feed her" is not a legitimate concern.

SmokingPuffinJan 11, 20152 votes

Akali and Yasuo are both just pubstompers. Not OP in any serious sense.

The counter to Akali is not "buy a pink ward". It's "don't feed her". She's only good if she gets ahead.

As far as Yasuo goes, he's a melee carry and those are an endangered species. He gets all those free stats because that is what it takes to offset his lame range.

BakedLotionJan 10, 20151 votes

maybe they can make it so that akali has to have the q mark on the enemy in order to repeatedly dash to them? Now they actually have to get in range to gap close instead of the huge range it has now

destiny fanJan 10, 20151 votes

yasuo was over nerfed, he's in the same position as YI

looks amazing when Feed and left unscathed looks horrible when focused and starved

i wouldn't want to be a yasuo against fizz, zed, annie, ryze, xerath... pretty much anyone with non proyectyle CC and some burst

Ariel the CruelJan 11, 20151 votes

Lissandra

WofyeJan 11, 20151 votes

Morgana can easily be shut down to almost useless with item 3139 item 3102 and item 3222 ...

WinterMage42Jan 11, 20151 votes

My only problem is that some bruiser/tank's have the burstyness of an assassin, and can have 3k HP at the same time. Others just have too much lifesteal/spellvamp.