Why is graves allowed to be a ranged tank with burst

ADepressedLeona·Jul 12, 2016·66 votes·4,209 views

Why.

112 Comments

ChaddyFantomeJul 12, 201617 votes

Ranged? He's practically melee.

He's more of a bruiser, and only barely.

AbyssphereJul 12, 20165 votes

Isn't his auto range the same as Urgot's/Morgana's?

ChaddyFantomeJul 13, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Isn't his auto range the same as Urgot's/Morgana's?

Not exactly. His autos stop at the first thign hit and do less damage unless he is basically melee range.

TwinkieProJul 13, 20162 votes

That's generally incorrect. He is better than any melee champ, simply because he has more range. His autos also do 70-100% of his AD based on distance, but each pellet after the first does a 3rd of the first pellets damage. At max range, you usually hit about 2, dealing ~95% of his total AD. However, at point blank, it does either ~150% or 190%, depending how the actual math works out (the wording could use improvement on the wiki). His Q can do up to 195% of his bonus AD, PLUS 375 at max rank, and also has more range than his autos. Not to mention 120 armor just for for dashing a couple times.

But you are correct in saying he's more of a bruiser. A ranged one that can fuck you up even harder than most melee carries if he gets in your face.

five oh tree Jul 12, 201617 votes

0 hard cc 1 slow/vision reducer. He has one of the lowest-cc kits in all of the game and you're calling him a tank. Low attack range with attacks that can't go through enemies. 1 defensive steroid that, contrary to popular belief, takes time to ramp up to any decent numbers. q/r can both be dodged by moving out of the way. especially true for his q.

Garbage winrate according to champion.gg. Not sure why people are still circlejerking about him being op... It's almost as bad as the lee sin complaints.

His dps is worse than almost all marksmen because of the reload mechanic, so his burst has to be better to compensate.

If I pointed out all the pros to a champion, they would sound op too, but they're not. Just as graves is not op, or even strong, for that matter. He's balanced.

ADepressedLeonaJul 12, 20162 votes

Yeah I don't care if he has little CC

I'm gonna call someone who is unburstable/you can't DPS him down because item 3053 / item 3156 , item 3046 and item 3812 just prevents him from dying a tank

INoble KnightIJul 12, 20163 votes

Why did you let him get that big in the first place then?

Papa SlothyJul 12, 20166 votes

it's pretty bias cause he recently lost a game due to a graves going 15-5 building those exact items lol

LeeerzeichenJul 12, 20162 votes

I disagree with 0 hard cc. I think his vision reduction is the worst form of cc to play against, because you are basically completely useless while being inside of his smokescreen and probably dead before you can get out of it. If I could choose between his current smokescreen and an 2s aoe stun I would take the aoe stun.

ChaddyFantomeJul 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I disagree with 0 hard cc. I think his vision reduction is the worst form of cc to play against, because you are basically completely useless while being inside of his smokescreen and probably dead before you can get out of it. If I could choose between his current smokescreen and an 2s aoe stun I would take the aoe stun.

Not being able to do anything > being able to do something. This is dumber than when people claim Silences are worse than stuns.

Arsenic SulfurJul 13, 20163 votes

The people who claim that are Riven or Xerath mains where a silence pretty much is a stun.

AtanchanJul 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I think his vision reduction is the worst form of cc to play against, because you are basically completely useless while being inside of his smokescreen

That's completely contextual. While it does kill your ability to use targeted abilities on anything not nearby, skillshots and self-targeted abilities are still full capable of doing everything - they're just harder to land, because you either need to rely on vision you had before becoming affected ( or fully affected - iirc, the vision range decreases over time, not instantly ) or through your allies feeding your information.

It's like silence and blind: it can make some champions useless until it's removed, but others are either completely unaffected or can still function at reduced ability depending on their kits.

alasarcherJul 12, 201612 votes

Why not?

Void NargacugaJul 12, 201623 votes

This is how you say that!

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/d/d0/360Wynaut.png/250px-360Wynaut.png

I'm not sorry.

MelledoneusJul 12, 20164 votes

Stop stealing my memes.

I'M WARNING YOU.

It took me a very, very long time to come up with that one.

And I don't know why.

Velzard of KozJul 12, 20161 votes

It ain't mene, it shall become buzzword now http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sonicpokemon/images/3/3a/Electabuzz.png/revision/latest?cb=20130109053536

MelledoneusJul 12, 20162 votes

Oh, buzz off.

Void NargacugaJul 12, 20161 votes

Pokemon name puns like that are as old as the version that the Pokemon came from.

So quite have a http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/8/8b/697Tyrantrum.png/250px-697Tyrantrum.png , and let me have my http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/b/b9/321Wailord.png/250px-321Wailord.png of a time!

Velzard of KozJul 12, 20161 votes

What are those! They ain't from the generation I worship.

Voluug13Jul 12, 20164 votes

Burn the genwunner.

MelledoneusJul 12, 20161 votes

I personally only enjoyed up until Emerald. Then the series became weird and the music starting hurting my ears.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 12, 20162 votes

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

MelledoneusJul 12, 20162 votes

Fortree city was the BEST music EVER.

PaladinNOJul 13, 20162 votes

Dunno why, but I just read your nick as "Melodious"...

Nice one - thanks for the tip (melody DLed and placed in my VGM collection). :)

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyCo3DuZMBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM1uyHjwrI8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ckPrape8-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tob_KO45uns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1YKC8cNXR8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttqzq0GOY_E

MrBuffingtonJul 13, 20162 votes

Reading this on my phone, reflexively tried to throw a pokeball

just kidding, my phone is three million years old. rip pokemon go. rip my dreams of being the very best

DarKnight20685Jul 12, 201612 votes

[deleted]

xTropicalPenguinJul 12, 20164 votes

i still think he's too weak without his cigar

CasterGilgameshJul 12, 20165 votes

i agree we need him to have his vape at least its not as OP As his cigar 420 vape it

xTropicalPenguinJul 12, 20167 votes

I mean if you can call "ranged" having to be in melee distance to hit, then sure he's a ranged tank

DengedenJul 12, 20165 votes

Because his range his bad and his burst easy to dodge.

XIII VanitasJul 12, 20164 votes

Because the very moment you nerf Graves, he will become unplayable. He's already a bad marksman because of his low range and his inability to reliably hit his target (if something else gets in the way, like an enemy unit/structure or a neutral monster, he won't be able to attack his target), which also means that he can't last hit properly. If you nerf his defensive stats, he will also become a bad jungler and top laner (roles in which he certainly doesn't shine, considering the fact that his current win rate isn't higher than 49%). On the other hand, if you nerf his ability to burst squishies, Graves' damage output will become negligible, because everyone will be able to simply walk away from him.

TL;DR: In his current state, Graves doesn't need a nerf. He doesn't bring much utility to the team, because he lacks cc. His offensive potential is already gated, because he gets bonus defensive stats only during extended fights and he's able to burst you 100-0 only if you're between him and a wall.

PaladinNOJul 13, 20164 votes

Why is Graves allowed to be a ranged tank with burst

Because when he (forcifully) quit smoking, he became able to gain his full, physical potential.

I7A6X2v2Jul 13, 20164 votes

Because he is allowed to be a ranged tank with burst.

AtanchanJul 13, 20162 votes

This is a rather good point.

Even if I don't agree that he's a tank, he's still designed and balanced around being a bursty, bulky character with kind of ranged attacks. Say what you will of, say, Ekko, but a utility assassin isn't inherently a broken concept - it just needs care and consideration moreso than some other standard concepts, and hopefully if we do get another one or an Ekko rework Riot will be able to manage something less overbearing thanks to the experience of what can make such a concept go off the rails. Like Jihn - it's really not hard to imagine how a marksman who gets incredibly high AD and can contribute from like two screens away in exchange for not having any sort of "proper" AS scaling and only four shots could go horribly wrong, but as he is? He's just an awesome champion that has his niche and rocks it.

And the same goes with all similar non-standard concepts. They can go horribly wrong, sure, but if the actual intention between the design and balance fits the concept, then they can end up making incredibly unique playstyles and make the landscape of the meta that much more dynamic.

Stand in my XJul 12, 20163 votes

gnar?

AbyssphereJul 12, 20165 votes

Gnar has burst?

Darkslayer85Jul 13, 20162 votes

A lot, actually.

AA Q AA AA Q AA E AA AA AA AA Q

The max hp damage will have killed your opponent by then.

AbyssphereJul 13, 20168 votes

In what world is 8 auto attacks on someone who builds no AS and 3 Qs "burst"?

Pika FoxJul 12, 20163 votes

Because his range is pitiful for an ADC, meaning he needs some innate defenses

And his shotgun being 2 shots means he cant have consistent and constant damage, meaning he needs burst.

Also, hes not a tank, at best hes a bruiser.

Jeanne fan clubJul 13, 20163 votes

He has no cc, and all of his abilities are technically skillshots. If you fall behind as graves you really just don't come back. He is snowball relient, Op if ahead and useless if behind.

Papa SlothyJul 12, 20162 votes

this is a really bias post, the OP recently just lost a ranked game to a graves going 15-5 building the exact items he quoted in a comment below

"Yeah I don't care if he has little CC

I'm gonna call someone who is unburstable/you can't DPS him down because item 3053 , item 3156 , item 3046 and item 3812 just prevents him from dying a tank"

graves might be a teeny bit too strong but the graves you (OP) fought was fed as hell

HaloDragonXJul 12, 20161 votes

He can build item 3812 item 3046 item 3031 item 3036 item 3508 and still be tanky, mobile, sustain, assassin. MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T GIVE A CHAMPION FREE 120 ARMOR AND MR AND A TON OF BURST.