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[Item suggestion] A "true" Tank item

Fefnil··8 votes·1,883 views

Riot lately tried to find a way to evaluate tanks, especially in jungle, and it came up with the idea of the Bami's Cinder (similar to Sunfire, it increases damage over time). But I still think it will not resolve the problem of the tanks. If your team is a little behind, you can't do anything: sure, you can lock your targets, but your allies most of the time won't still be able to kill them. And, despite the fact that you are a tank, you are still bursted down like a squishy. The problem with the tanks is that if your team is behind, you can't do anything. While other champions still have something even if they are behind, tanks don't. They sacrifice damage for tankyness and for cc, but cc are mostly useless if behind and even if you are supposed to be tank everyone kills you easily. Now, what I'm trying to suggest is an item that, even if behind, can at least maintain the tankyness you should have. Because, let's be real, every Nautilus with 200 MR rages when a Fizz only 2 levels over kills him 100-0 without even using ult (well, not anymore, but it's to give the idea). I will list only the passive effect, and it's only a suggestion, so numbers can be tweaked, I just want to explain the "idea" behind this.

Passive effect: Reduces physical and magic damage received from champions by 50%. Reduces physical and magic damage dealt to champions by 50%.

The problem with tank items is that they can be built by everyone, so non-tank champions have access to this tankyness and it is difficult to balance. What I suggest is an item that only tanks would want to build, because every other champion would have their damage output halved, while pure tanks simply don't care about their damage. I also specified "from/to champions", so it can't hinder wave clear or jungling ability. What are your thoughts?

EDIT: on second thought, probably it would be better with a more punitive reduction. I would make it 90% or so damage dealt reduced and 50% damage received reduced. Having only 50% could effectively create situations where assassins that can 100-0 may buy this item to have massive tankiness and still have the ability to 50-0 enemies.

27 Comments

Very Hard Engage2 votes

the problem with this is that its a blatantly OP item, 50% is a huge reduction. the other problem is it can still be bought by the enemy jungler as well and if they're ahead they would completely destroy your adc.

Fefnil1 votes

How? If they are fighters or assassins, they would deal no damage with the item, and if they are tanks, nothing would effectively change. If they are ahead, that tank would be unkillable anyway.

Fefnil1 votes

Other thoughts? I try to explain better. What I want is something (item, mastery, rune, anything) easily accessible that only pure tanks would want, because it massively increase their survivability, but also massively cripple their attack, so any other champion would never want it. That's because often, if you want to work as a tank, to put cc you need to stay in the middle of the fight and get focused. If you are behind you simply can't do this, and this simply nullifies your identity, because have only one job, but can't fulfill it, and it's not even your fault, because that's a matter of damage calculation, simple math. If you are behind you can't change the fact that you can't tank, and then what you can do, then? Sure, you can go for objectives, I always do that, but you'll eventually come to the point where you'll have to fight. I just want something that assures you are a tank, in any situation.

Hirok01 votes

CC makes a world of difference no matter how far ahead or behind you are. If you are more tanky, you have much more opportunity to position and get the most out of your CC. If you are an assassin and you get this, you become a fighter with 0-50 burst that can be done every 15 seconds for most champs. I just think its a silly idea to make it work toward champions.

Passives? Armor has double effectiveness against Large Monsters. (ie 20ar = 40ar vs large monsters only) Monsters that attack you take 50% of your total (ar+mr) as true damage over 5 seconds. Gain a shield for 100% of your ar/mr, which recharges 10% of its total amount per second while in combat with monsters. Heal for 25% of your missing health and mana when killing a large monster. etc etc These are probably not great either, but its better because you aren't effecting champ-champ combat directly (mostly). More, you are giving a way to keep up outside of champ-champ combat.

I might accept this if it were... reduce damage you take by 10% and reduce damage you deal by 20%. Something that's clearly a loss to get, but still has a purpose if you are a CC monster.

Fefnil1 votes

Exactly. At first I actually thought about 50% damage taken and 90% damage dealt, because I wanted this item to practically nullify your damage, I wrote 50 just to set the idea. About cc, that's exactly what I want to get with this item. If I (tank) am behind, I can still cc my enemies, but most tanks have low range or comboed cc, and if I get bursted down at the beginning of the fight I can't do it. Because cc make difference, that's why I think this item could work, even if it nullifies your damage, you actually don't lose power. With a more punishing debuff in damage, assassins wouldn't buy it. What about 50% and 90% or so?

Juggernaut6281 votes

{quoted}

Exactly. At first I actually thought about 50% damage taken and 90% damage dealt, because I wanted this item to practically nullify your damage, I wrote 50 just to set the idea. About cc, that's exactly what I want to get with this item. If I (tank) am behind, I can still cc my enemies, but most tanks have low range or comboed cc, and if I get bursted down at the beginning of the fight I can't do it. Because cc make difference, that's why I think this item could work, even if it nullifies your damage, you actually don't lose power. With a more punishing debuff in damage, assassins wouldn't buy it. What about 50% and 90% or so?

Due to the fact that carries need to have an impact on the game or they are useless, the damage taken would probably bereduced by 15%-25% and damage dealt would probably be decreased by 25%-30% as tanks should still be able to do SOMETHING in a fight other than cc.

Fefnil1 votes

But if you are behind you can't do neither of those. You can't tank, because they burst you. You can't cc, because, even if you get in range and manage to do a full combo, they burst you. You can't deal that little damage you have, because they burst you. It's not only a matter of being behind. If you are a tank, it's not easy to get ahead, but for many carries this is pretty easy. If enemy team gets ahead in other lanes, you can't do anything against them, and this just doesn't feel right for someone who should be a bulwark in any situation.

Hirok01 votes

Double Edged Sword (mastery): +1.5% damage dealt and taken for ranged champs. 2% dealt and 1% taken for melee champs. Notice how low the amounts are though. 10/20 is still very high. Its much more likely your'd see 5/10. Quite frankly, 5% could be enough to get your cc off, which is enough to win a fight.

Fefnil1 votes

But defense is different than offense: for a boost in damage, 1,5-2% is actually a good amount, but for a tank who has to take tons of damage, it would be useless. It needs to be high.

Ghiefelstein1 votes

So this is like the double-edged sword mastery but for defense? I think it might work if it had less crazy numbers. Sacrificing damage for tankiness sounds like a meaningful trade-off so only true tanks take it.

Fefnil1 votes

Yeah, but I think that numbers need to be high. For damage, 1,5-2% is actually a good amount, but for tanks who have to take tons of damage, it's just useless.

Necromancer91 votes

This hypothetical true tank item is a cool idea, but chances are that a lot of supports would also get it if possible. They do not usually care about their damage output, and frequently just try to keep their carries alive through healing and peeling. It would be especially potent on Braum, but many of the squishy ones with self healing abilities would potentially becomes quite tanky.

Fefnil1 votes

And where's the problem? I thought this item for every tank, why supports should be excluded? Braum, Leona, Alistar, Taric, this item could help them a lot if they are behind, because, especially the supports that have to sink their gold for other things, they struggle if they are behind. And the squishy ones, well, they do more damage than what you would think. And anyway, a 50% reduction alone is not that powerful. Think about Master Yi while meditating but whitout the heal: the damage he takes is still pretty high.

Necromancer91 votes

I do not think there is a problem here. I just wanted to point out that supports would be interested in this item too, as the folks in this thread were just discussing tanks. It is just another possibility to consider.

Braum and Leona would really love this item, and Soraka would probably like it too. I personally would not want this item on Taric unless I get behind on him because he actually can do a lot of damage. As you said, some of the squishy supports do quite a bit of damage and would not want this item. Zyra, Morgana, and perhaps Sona may be good examples of that.

Fefnil1 votes

Ok, and I just pointed out the fact that supports are not different than tanks. I'll explain better: there are usually 2 types of support: tanks and mages. When I talk about Alistar, Braum, Leona, I categorize them as "tank", they simply also cover the role of a "bot lane support", but I didn't separate them. So when I talked about tanks in the board, I included support tanks too.

And yeah, Taric has actually a pretty good sustained damage, that's because he is a jack of all trades. He is supposed to be a tank, but has a decent heal, a decent cc, a decent damage combo pattern, a decent aura damage boost, a decent armor shred, a bit of everything. I would use this item only if I want to go full tank with him, too.

Necromancer91 votes

I think some of the mage supports would benefit from this hypothetical tank item as it may allow some of the mage type supports to become off-tanks. Obviously they would not become as tanky as tanks with the item, but 50% damage reduction is equivalent to doubling the effect of health, shields, and healing. I think Nami, Janna, and Soraka may be mage type supports that would really benefit from such an item, potentially turning them into off-tanks. Their usefulness comes from their CC and protective abilities instead of their damage, especially once laning ends.

I guess what I am trying to say is that traditionally squishy utility based champions may build the item and become tanks or off-tanks. I do not think that would necessarily be a bad thing, but it may have weird consequences. I do really like the idea of a true tank item.

Fefnil1 votes

Yeah, you're right. I don't think it would be a bad thing, as you said, too. It would make mage supports more focused on cc than cc and poke (that is what they effectively have).

Yandere Carry2 votes

Janna/soraka

Edit: YES, it is insanely powerful... It's why Alistar is so tanky, his ult is like 70% and you pretty much can't kill him w. it up.

Fefnil1 votes

But Alistar's ult works because he's already tanky himself. Try to use the ult without items, it will not be so op then.

Miku Lv991 votes

Way OP on champions that are just utility or CC tanks that don't care about doing much damage. Like look at Leona. She's just a CC tank. A whole lot more tankiness would be a big plus for her. She could even still do damage because of her passive which wouldn't be affected since it makes her ally do the damage and not her. And the enemy team and turrets and stuff would be wasting all of their attacks they used on her or just that she blocked that were intended for other targets because they'd barely even hurt her. Also, thornmail would be ridiculous with this. Even if its damage were halved, they'd still barely be able to hurt you so they'd be hurting themselves for a very long time before they killed you. Same is kinda true for Sion, Braum, etc. And any champion that can deal enough true damage would just have massive fighting potential with this. Another horror would be the split pushers. They don't care much about attacking champions. They just want to take objectives and not die. This would help them with that too much. No one wants to deal with that nearly indestructible Singed that also barely hurts you, but of course you can't ignore him or he'll take objectives.

Fefnil1 votes

Thornmail damage IS reduced. Even though it reflects 1/3 of attacker damage, this % is dealt as magic damage, so the item would reduce it anyway. Same situation with Sunfire cape and whatever other gimmick you can imagine. For Leona, yes, passive damage doesn't get reduced, but it is limited by her cooldown. In a teamfight where both teams are even, Leona would probably survive the fight anyway, but if they are behind, she would get bursted. That's when this item effectively helps. In a teamfight where Leona is behind, she can still helps with her cc and passive, because that's what you would expect from her, and it's silly that just for a matter of damage calculation you are unable to do it. This item should give no difference if a tank is ahead (because, in a teamfight, if you need 10 seconds to shred a fed Leona, changing this number to 20 seconds just makes no difference, when teamfights last 4-7 seconds), but should help a lot if he's behind.

Ok, for the splitpusher, that's a good point.

Mmh... what if this item works only if you are in your base or if there is at least an ally champion nearby?

DisasterSola1 votes

@topic Make it like smite. A key iktem tied to a summoner spell.

Carries get something like barrier, which would unlock IE/rabbadons Bruisers dont get shit Assassins get somethnig like ignite, which would unlock brutalizer And tanks would get something like garrison, which would unlock a new item that scales with champion level and reduces incoming damage and ramps up while in battle (while at the same time lowering your damage output)

Fefnil1 votes

Mmh... Maybe too much restrictive? I mean, not only assassins build brutalizer, same with the other items you mentioned.

DisasterSola1 votes

{quoted}

Mmh... Maybe too much restrictive? I mean, not only assassins build brutalizer, same with the other items you mentioned.

Jungle items were useful on some laners in S4. Sion, volibear, garen, etc. If riot is all for hyper specializing, lets just lock the more powerful and problamatic items into summoner spells that champions wouldnt normally take.

The decsion to buff AD items and nerf tank items, while at the same time locking out some of the strongest utility items in the game, was terrible and only serves to hyper enforce a stagnant meta.

Fefnil1 votes

But I think that your idea would probably make things even more stagnant, following the same logic.

DisasterSola1 votes

{quoted}

But I think that your idea would probably make things even more stagnant, following the same logic.

Riot has already made very clear that they dont want innovation and divergence from the meta. If they did, they would have a more DotA like balance where each champion is generally around the same power level but excel in certain lanes because of their kit.

Fefnil1 votes

True enough, but I still think that your idea is still too much restrictive. Ok, for machete/smite there was a logic, only junglers build machete, and usually laners don't take smite. So tying them together had sense. But adc don't always pick barrier, they also pick heal and sometimes even cleanse. What I mean is that smite has always been a jungler spell, and machete a jungler item. No one would pick them in lane. But the other items and spells, well... they are not so focused on one specific role.

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