And if there's one thing I'd like it's that the bomb prioritizes ENEMY champions first.
Really the priority should be Enemy Champions with a bomb on them Allied Champions with a bomb on them Minions with a bomb on them Enemy Champions Allied champions Minions
But from what I could see it targeted whichever champion was closest, so whenever there was a clusterfuck it was a toss up onto if it was on an ally or enemy.
CirclesBruh24 votesI believe that is the actual intended priority order, but new Zilean is just a little buggy and his bombs are extremely unreliable. I hope they make that minuscule skillshot a little, and I mean just a tiny bit wider and make his bombs' stickiness a bit more reactive, because I've landed bombs on enemies just to have them walk out of it. Also, one time I landed a bomb on a Pantheon that would have killed him but as he ulted out of a teamfight he just left it on the floor... I'm also a little miffed that Zilean bombs can no longer go through Yasuo's wind wall, but I'm sure that's intended because Yasuo and Lee Sin are the favored Sons of Riot.
ANGUSdaGUY1 votesIt cant go through because it's a projectile now...
CirclesBruh3 votesYeah but they made it a projectile see? It could have just as easily been a conjuring like Sydra's Q and probably would have been more thematically appropriate besides. But because they choose for the particle effect to be Zilean chucking the bombsinstead of conjuring it's now a "projectile" and Yasuo buff.
LeeDark3 votesZilean wasn't previously the counter to Yasuo, though, so it doesn't matter than much and isn't really a buff. Yasuo didn't care if you put a bomb on him, because that is Zilean's only damage source and Yasuo's shield passive would stop a hefty chunk of the damage.
ANGUSdaGUY2 votesI see the correlation. But he's also getting a group 1.5 second stun too which kinda annihilates most of the trouble of trading with people. When playing cait I could auto him to death as he walked off but if you're so worried about yasuo, you probably shouldnt go Zil when he's around. He's not that broken anymore. I'll whine a bit about the hangtime and armor pen.
LeeDark1 votesWhat about my post gave you the impression I was worried about Yasuo?
Did you reply to me thinking I was someone else?
ANGUSdaGUY1 votesprobably
CirclesBruh1 votesI took Zil vs Yas all the time! His damage went through windwall, you could just throw an auto at him AFTER placing your bomb to proc his shield, and Zileans ult is a great counter to any assassin with an all in ult.
LeeDark1 votesUm, no. The bomb goes through windwall, but that autoattack you want to break his shield doesn't. Worse, the bomb had a longer range than the auto, so it was easy for him to throw up the wall and back off.
And Zilean's ult is a counter to everything that tries to kill someone... which is pretty much EVERYTHING. Thing is, Zilean can't cast it while Yasuo is ulting him, as opposed to, for example, ulting yourself when you see the warning for Zigg's ult flying at you. Cast it while his tornado is heading toward you? You just wasted your ult, because he won't follow through.
JevelFaithful3 votesYou're honnestly reading too much into it. They probably just wanted it to have a short delay, and it feels natural to throw a bomb. Hence the lob. I mean, look at how many bombs we have that all are thrown : all of Ziggs, Corki flash, Heimer's grenade, Jinx's firetraps aare kind of bombs with traps strapped on them.
And I don't think riot's designer have the foresight to say "hey if we do that, X champion (that'S not even in the spotlight that much right now) is going to get slightly buff! Hourai!". You're giving them too much credit.
GnomeDigest1 votesWell its not even close to replicating that priority order in game so I am left wondering how this ever made it to live.
But hey if you want your players to despise the rework i cannot think of a better way than having a champions only damage ability have buggy as crap targeting. Oh and make sure that targeting is all important to making the new stun play you are using to sell this rework.
Riot ineptness is at an all time high lately.
KING OF MASKS10 votesI tried out new Zilean recently as well, and honestly, I hate what they've done to Time Bomb. Consider that you need to land two skillshots AND spend close to 300 mana to land a decent stun.
No thanks. I'll play Annie instead.
LeeDark5 votesThe bomb now also functions as a bush sweeper. You can easily tell if it attached to a champion or not. Annie cannot do this at all.
With W, two bombs cover a rather large area, making for effective zoning in a siege, something Annie lacks unless her ult and stun are up.
Zilean's E, especially at rank 5, is a VERY effective initiation tool, allowing other champions to easily get in range to start a fight. Annie depends on mobility boots to do the same, and can only initiate herself, rather than enabling someone else to do so. (This, I feel, is one of the more important factors. When Zilean last saw competitive play, it was very often in a comp with a tanky initiator who lacked a gap closer, like a well-farmed Ryze.) While they may have nerfed the duration, the compensation in sheer power means NOBODY is outrunning someone Zilean sped up.
Zilean is chosen for very different reasons than Annie in any case. Annie offers superior harass in lane, compared to almost all other supports except Sona and maybe Zyra. Annie is someone who wants to make plays herself. Zilean offers a mix of mild harass, disengage/engage, a powerful slow/speedup to pick someone off, and a protection ult. Zilean is someone who enables others to make plays. They should not be compared to one another.
KING OF MASKS1 votesFair points all around; in case it wasn't clear, I only played one game with new Zilean and was so underwhelmed I didn't experiment further. Not complaining about his other skills though, they're very strong and perfectly acceptable (with the exception of W which is just a multiplier). But I think most people would agree that the stun portion of Time Bomb is pretty weak.
Arcane Azmadi2 votesSame here. I played him once and gave up on him for good. These "buffs" were almost as bad a hatchet-job as they did to Veigar- it's ridiculously hard to tag your opponent with even a SINGLE bomb, let alone a double. Zilean's completely lost the reliable lane harass that made him remotely useful, now he's just a joke of a champ.
Eraest973 votesI just got to say that as much as the old Zilean was easier to play, the new Zilean isn't horrible. Yes his bombs are harder to hit, but his initiation is so much better than it use to be. I've played the new Zilean a few times and his skill shot is just a new thing you got to practice with like all skillshots.
FoggyPaws4 votes[{quoted}](name=KING OF MASKS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EIWHI5lM,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-03-02T23:02:08.166+0000)
I tried out new Zilean recently as well, and honestly, I hate what they've done to Time Bomb. Consider that you need to land two skillshots AND spend close to 300 mana to land a decent stun.
No thanks. I'll play Annie instead.
Before, he didnt' HAVE a stun, and his kit is still really good, that ult pls, that speed/slow, the cooldown reset, foxy grandpa
Aicle2 votesIs your name a refrence to KoM from Dawngate?
KING OF MASKS2 votesIndeed!
Solidair39 votesThat's the intended priority order, actually. If it's not functioning that way, it's a bug.
Oleandervine4 votesThat's the intended priority order, actually. If it's not functioning that way, it's a bug.
That is not how it is currently functioning. I've had instances where I've bombed a minion and pitched a second bomb in the mob when it was near an enemy champ, only to have the second bomb prioritize the champion instead of thr bombed minion. If the prioritization is indeed buggy, fixing it will help Zilean a ton.
Sightless661 votesAre you sure that's the intended priority order? I haven't seen it prioritize targets that already have bombs. It just seems to be champion > minion, and maybe enemy > ally.
Solidair31 votesThat's what a red post said a while back.
Regardless, that is how it TYPICALLY functions for me, though I've had a few instances where it bugged out and attached to something else entirely.
LeeDark1 votesYes, that is technically how it functions. If you go into a custom game with friends and have them stand together, right on top of each other, and not move, then you will always be able to get the stun off.
The problem seems to be that when enemies and allies are moving around in a clusterfuck, the stun is based more on luck than anything else. Perhaps it isn't a bug, and just the nature of the clusterfuck. You THINK you land it where you need to, but wasn't quite in range. They probably need to increase the radius a little, even if only increasing the radius at which it will connect to someone who already has a bomb on them.
JevelFaithful1 votesMy understanding was that it prioritized Enemy champs > minions, then stun > not stun. I'm not sure where enemy vs ally fit into this.
What the OP is proposing (and what seems the best) is stun > not stun, then enemy > allies > minions.
LeeDark1 votesIt can attach to allies, too. That's where they fit in. My testing in customs indicates it prioritizes other bombs first. I'd guess the problem is in edge cases where people are moving around in the AoE during the travel time of the bomb, because if you have people standing perfectly still, it behaves the same way every time, or at least it did through 150 tries.
JevelFaithful1 votesGood point for people standign still. You mean it appears to take a primary target at cast time?
I meant : I'm not sure how they are prioritised vs minions and enemies. I'm pretty sure it takes enemies champs before allied champs. But not sure when it comes to enemy minions or minions with bomb. Basically, does it prioritize an aoe Stun or does it prioritize guaranteed damage on enemy. Or does it assumes that putting it on an alied champion will lead to an initiation and more aoe.
LeeDark2 votesMy tests indicated that the priority was Bomb > No Bomb FIRST. The only circumstance I did not test there was throwing a bomb at minions, having an enemy champ walk in, then throwing another. It did, however, prioritize attaching to an allied champion that already had a bomb on them over an enemy that didn't. I assumed it would work the same with minions, but on second though, I can see why it would prioritize champions over minions that have a bomb. Perhaps that should be tested. All other things being equal, it will attempt to perform the instant damage and stun.
I did not specifically test to determine when the target is chosen, because I assumed it chooses its target on impact. It would seem like it would have to be programmed that way to be dodged. It has a travel time, can be dodged, and can hit a target that walks into the zone after the cast but before the impact. This is why leading the enemy works. That said, if it is ranking enemies by priority as soon as it is cast, but only attaching to one highest in the priority when it lands, that might be able to explain some of these reported bugs. I cannot claim to know anything about the programming, only what I saw through experimentation.
JevelFaithful1 votesI did not specifically test to determine when the target is chosen, because I assumed it chooses its target on impact.
Yeah, me too. I would find if weird if it somehow choose it's target before landing. Anyway, that's just something I tought I understood.
FLABREZU4 votesNew Zilean is straight garbage. They nerfed almost everything about him. Zilean's only real use in lane was his strong harass with Q. Then they make Q do less damage, AND make it a hard to land skill shot, AND raise its cooldown before you hit level 5, AND lower his attack range? And his ult has a lower duration and much longer cooldown pre-16? And all this is after they already destroyed his passive so he had one of the lowest win rates in the game. Just a bunch of nonsense.
Bombkirby3 votesI think the second bomb should be easier to land by making so that any bombs thrown inside the radius of the first one's AoE will activate the stun. TWO on the same target is completely impossible to land it on a huge cluster of moving targets. Even when trying to put it on your tank or something they might dash and make you miss. It's too precise. And without his AoE stun he's just there for speed boosts, slows, and his ult. Basically since the rework I've only landed two stuns, out of about 5 games, in a team fight. That is not right. In lane against one or two champions... easy! In the clusterfuck of a teamfight? Not so much... It's a very powerful stun. It's like a mini Sej ult every 8 seconds theoretically but its literally impossible to hit the correct target.
Otherwise hes great!
Honestly putting all his damage potential onto one skill shot is only hurting him. Besides, why would you not want annie instead, for the stun?
He gives mobility to the non-mobile that is why. He's kind of scary on champions who struggle getting into range but can blow people up if they do get into range.
kureransu2 votesI think the second bomb should be easier to land by making so that any bombs thrown inside the radius of the first one's AoE will activate the stun. TWO on the same target is completely impossible to land it on a huge cluster of moving targets. Even when trying to put it on your tank or something they might dash and make you miss. It's too precise. And without his AoE stun he's just there for speed boosts, slows, and his ult. Basically since the rework I've only landed two stuns, out of about 5 games, in a team fight. That is not right. In lane against one or two champions... easy! In the clusterfuck of a teamfight? Not so much... It's a very powerful stun. It's like a mini Sej ult every 8 seconds theoretically but its literally impossible to hit the correct target.
Otherwise hes great!
He gives mobility to the non-mobile that is why. He's kind of scary on champions who struggle getting into range but can blow people up if they do get into range.
That is how it curently works, if the "magnetic" area touch each other the stun is activated. You can actually land one on a champ, thow the other one in front of them and as soon as they touch the stun happens and the fist bomb goes off. same if you trow it on one minion then the minion right next to it.
Greenheath3 votesi think they should change his q to be a doublecast like rumbles e (and fix its priority) and give him a completely new w.
he had little counterplay previously but now hes garbage.
Kagemyth2 votesinteresting
Kitten of Evil2 votesYeah, it's incredibly difficult to double-bomb someone in a teamfight, because bomb #2 always decides to attach to the adjacent champion or minion.
junglerboy162 votesIt already does work like that and if it doesn't it is a bug. It is currently set to prioritize: Anything with a bomb (for the obvious reason of triggering it and stunning anyone nearby)>Enemy champions>Ally champions>enemy minions>Ally minions.
If it isn't targeting in that order, report this in the bugs board.
Mohrb1 votesIt already does work like that and if it doesn't it is a bug. It is currently set to prioritize: Anything with a bomb (for the obvious reason of triggering it and stunning anyone nearby)>Enemy champions>Ally champions>enemy minions>Ally minions.
If it isn't targeting in that order, report this in the bugs board.
Point is if it's going todecide to move itself, a bombed minion should take priority over an unbombed champion.
junglerboy161 votesWell duh, that is what it means when it said anything with a bomb is top priority.
Jamnon2 votesHonestly putting all his damage potential onto one skill shot is only hurting him. Besides, why would you not want annie instead, for the stun?
GnomeDigest2 votesUntil they fix his bomb prioritization Zil cannot effectively take a solo lane. Then again maybe Riot has decided Zilean is getting moved into the "only supports" role and are happy with him being exile to the bot lane.
Granted as a support the bomb issues are still a huge problem but at least in that role his utility makes him ok.
The Itis1 votesUsually making an ability require more skill (such as making it a skill shot) is accompanied by having it deal more damage.
Why make it harder to land AND make it do less damage?
Pepsakdoek1 votesAccording to 20thCenturyFaux - "priority is: anything with a bomb > enemy champ > ally champ > enemy creep > ally creep" And I'll add > Ground.
DotEleven1 votesAccording to 20thCenturyFaux - "priority is: anything with a bomb > enemy champ > ally champ > enemy creep > ally creep" And I'll add > Ground.
Alright, that would be great, but from the one game I played, it definitely didn't work like this because like I said, one time in particular when a Leona Zenith bladed into me, I threw a bomb right on top of us and then I had to run out because I got low and the bomb was attached to me, not her.
flyn2111 votesI agree with this statement completely. When Riot updated Zilean, they accidentally created new bugs within Zilean's bombs. Once they work out all the errors, Zilean should be back to his original power.
Spitemaster1 votesHonestly, the biggest change I'd like to see is self-casting bombs. It would make it actually possible to self-peel, and as it's generally not a good idea to get that close as Zilean anyway, wouldn't be a huge buff IMO.
Mohrb1 votesAnother option I saw to make the second bomb functional... Either prioritize Current bomb> Enemy champ... etc. It could be changed over similar to Urgot with the missile lock.
First one can be the retarded delayed thing... but rewind turns on missile lock, letting you land the second improved one.
... although, this encroaches on Karma and LaBlanc's territory.
OhOkYea1 votesI like that zilean players have to actually put effort in now instead of just spamming q and then going back to turret. Now if you want to be just as annoying, you have to actually make an effort.
Chronoshifter1 votesZilean main reporting in, I approve this message