Why was Shen's Q changed? I will answer to any/every comment.

Imperial Japan··3 votes·852 views

Why was Shen's Q changed? There was no reason for it to be changed. It's almost as if it was because Rito wanted to just make a community cash grab where they would alter Shen to look cool but then throw him to the side as to get east cash. And before you say they changed it because of low Interactivity.. just don't. Many other abilities in league have this type of "low interactivity" and it could have been changed in many ways that didn't involve a huge floating clunky sword. Going along it's already reworked self they could've lowered the Q damage to make it less useful in trades, kept its sustain, paired his old passive Ki Strike to it as to make it like Akali's Q as to allow some "interactivity" and this would've allowed for more role versatility and easier balance as well. As for mid Shen enthusiast they could increase the AP scaling on his Q.

pairing Ki Strike to his old Q will not only add to its interactivity but also its versatility. It will force Shen to be more "interactive" top lane by rewarding him or encouraging him to prock his Q and will allow for him to keep his sustain, slow, and to not have a giant floatie. It'll also allow for Mid Shen to be a thing. Alrhough his Q AP scaling cannot be overtuned as the Ki Strike passive will be there it'll allow for more interactivity and will encourage the Shen to go in and play well to assassinate the enemy. Without any escapes he would be an interesting mid lane assassin that'll require precise mechanics and skill to play. It'll be a cool pocket pick and possibly a good counterpick against TF with his global pressure when mid. As for jungle it'll allow for him to actually sustain through the jungle and will still let him clear semi easily. Unlike his current Q which will not reward him at all his old Q can be used in the jungle and nerfed vs monsters if needed. As for support nothing much will change other than its play style. Instead of a very hard engage type it'll require set up before taunting into the enemy botlane.

As for another thing I'd like to discuss, I believe his current W should be replaced with a different ability so that he can have his 50% dmg reduction back onto his E. this way it'll actually reward Shen for landing his taunt whereas Shen would just be bursted down after 1+ something seconds of his current w. But the main topic is his Q.

If you have any questions comments or concerns about anything I stated please go right ahead and post comments. I'd like to discuss about Shen and why you think what you think while trying to elaborate on my opinions.

19 Comments

Handy Sandy 2 votes

It was changed because riot wanted to.

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

It was changed because riot wanted to.

Well duh :P

Denims Wrath6662 votes

it was changed because the q was cancer. you couldnt duel shen at all as an melee champ, and ap champs would just get wrecked anyways if he landed e. you build defense to survive the poke- you cant kill him. you build damage to try and fight him, and he just out sustained you with shields and the lifesteal aspect of it. yeah, the q kind of sucks now, but shen isn't meant to be shitting on EVERYONE all across the map all game.

Imperial Japan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Denims Wrath666,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEcFQBht,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-11-09T00:22:13.657+0000)

it was changed because the q was cancer. you couldnt duel shen at all as an melee champ, and ap champs would just get wrecked anyways if he landed e. you build defense to survive the poke- you cant kill him. you build damage to try and fight him, and he just out sustained you with shields and the lifesteal aspect of it. yeah, the q kind of sucks now, but shen isn't meant to be shitting on EVERYONE all across the map all game.

Why was it cancer? As a meelee champion there were many ways to duel him. As an AP champ (I'm assuming ranged) all you had to do was stay out of range of his E (not high range btw) and if he were to flash e then he couldn't 100-0 YOU anyways. Also did you read my thread at all or are you just responding to the title? First off his Q didn't do a lot of damage prior to the rework and it's sustain although fair wasn't enough to sustain through tons of poke. Second off wdym by Shen shitting on everyone across the map? This thread is about his Q and what it had to offer and to question why it was changed. Please actually read my thread and respond with legitimate thoughts.

Denims Wrath6661 votes

well sorry you didn't make a ;tldr- I just assumed you were a whining bronzer so I just stuck with initial title. apologies for being lazy. this was just based off my experience with shen before the rework. felt he was broken.

Imperial Japan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Denims Wrath666,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEcFQBht,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-11-09T09:10:31.435+0000)

well sorry you didn't make a ;tldr- I just assumed you were a whining bronzer so I just stuck with initial title. apologies for being lazy. this was just based off my experience with shen before the rework. felt he was broken.

I thought of demoting down back to bronze but was too lazy :P okay, thanks for the feedback I guess

Thund3r Ang3l1 votes

they changed it because they don't want shen in competitive plays. pros at worlds already play too safely and with shen it is even worst...

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

they changed it because they don't want shen in competitive plays. pros at worlds already play too safely and with shen it is even worst...

But he's still played competitively and it doesn't really changed how he's played vs how much he can do during the landing phase. With the 50% reduction back on his e and his q dealing Ki Strike it'd probably even encourage Shen to dive the enemy team rather than to play safe by putting his w on his ADC

TequilaZombie1 votes

What are you wearing?

You said you'd answer every comment.

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

What are you wearing?

You said you'd answer every comment.

A red "Pit" (marching band percussion front ensemble) T-shirt and red shorts. I guess I would be wearing a blanket as well?

Quepha1 votes

Part of the reason was because of low Interactivity.

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

Part of the reason was because of low Interactivity.

In which I responded to in my thread, please read it before just replying to the title itself as in most cases the title is there as an opener

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=DLTD Stuart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEcFQBht,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-11-09T01:43:27.427+0000)

In which I responded to in my thread, please read it before just replying to the title itself as in most cases the title is there as an opener

I did read your post, that's how I was able to use the exact same phrasing you asked me not to use. Pointing out other problems with the game doesn't change the fact that Shen's old Q had problems.

Recognizing the answer to your own question doesn't automatically change the answer.

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

I did read your post, that's how I was able to use the exact same phrasing you asked me not to use. Pointing out other problems with the game doesn't change the fact that Shen's old Q had problems.

Recognizing the answer to your own question doesn't automatically change the answer.

I already stated the problen and a simple way to keep the old Q by adding interactivity without giving Shen a huge Floatie. Giving an already recognized reason does not add to the point so I thought that you just didn't read the post because nobody with a right mind would repeat what I said as a reason

Sightless661 votes

And before you say they changed it because of low Interactivity.. just don't. Many other abilities in league have this type of "low interactivity" and it could have been changed in many ways that didn't involve a huge floating clunky sword.

You just changed the question. Before this sentence, you were asking "why was Shen's Q changed?" With this sentence, you're asking "why was Shen's Q changed to a floating sword?". Those are different questions, and they merit different answers.

The reason it got changed WAS low interactivity. It was a targeted, effectively resourceless, healing source of poke damage. Additionally, becasue it was his primary damage ability (along with an autoattack based passive), it meant that he pretty much always got the same value out of melee fights. The only thing you could really gain or lose value on was hitting the E. Everything else was very, very straightforward, to the point of turning fights with him into a pure numbers game. It's noninteractive by any definition, and merited changes.

Additionally, those changes needed to be more significant that adding the barest minimum of interactive gameplay by forcing him to autoattack after it. That kind of gimmick is never interesting, only serves to limit early game poke, and it still doesn't introduce any specific way to succeed or fail with your abilities in melee fights.

As for why it was changed to the sword: well, I don't have a good justification for that. Didn't work out well. I'm perfectly open to changes to that. Just, not back to what he was.

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

You just changed the question. Before this sentence, you were asking "why was Shen's Q changed?" With this sentence, you're asking "why was Shen's Q changed to a floating sword?". Those are different questions, and they merit different answers.

The reason it got changed WAS low interactivity. It was a targeted, effectively resourceless, healing source of poke damage. Additionally, becasue it was his primary damage ability (along with an autoattack based passive), it meant that he pretty much always got the same value out of melee fights. The only thing you could really gain or lose value on was hitting the E. Everything else was very, very straightforward, to the point of turning fights with him into a pure numbers game. It's noninteractive by any definition, and merited changes.

Additionally, those changes needed to be more significant that adding the barest minimum of interactive gameplay by forcing him to autoattack after it. That kind of gimmick is never interesting, only serves to limit early game poke, and it still doesn't introduce any specific way to succeed or fail with your abilities in melee fights.

As for why it was changed to the sword: well, I don't have a good justification for that. Didn't work out well. I'm perfectly open to changes to that. Just, not back to what he was.

{quoted}

You just changed the question. Before this sentence, you were asking "why was Shen's Q changed?" With this sentence, you're asking "why was Shen's Q changed to a floating sword?". Those are different questions, and they merit different answers.

The reason it got changed WAS low interactivity. It was a targeted, effectively resourceless, healing source of poke damage. Additionally, becasue it was his primary damage ability (along with an autoattack based passive), it meant that he pretty much always got the same value out of melee fights. The only thing you could really gain or lose value on was hitting the E. Everything else was very, very straightforward, to the point of turning fights with him into a pure numbers game. It's noninteractive by any definition, and merited changes.

Additionally, those changes needed to be more significant that adding the barest minimum of interactive gameplay by forcing him to autoattack after it. That kind of gimmick is never interesting, only serves to limit early game poke, and it still doesn't introduce any specific way to succeed or fail with your abilities in melee fights.

As for why it was changed to the sword: well, I don't have a good justification for that. Didn't work out well. I'm perfectly open to changes to that. Just, not back to what he was.

I don't get how consistency is low interactivity. It still provides for much diversity and the sustain could've been for after he procked the passive I suggested. I'd think his old Q would work better even as a placeholder for a new idea which isn't a clunky flaotie. Any thoughts on what a better Q change would be? Also if Shen Q=low interactivity why isn't Akali's Q counted as so?

Sightless661 votes

I don't get how consistency is low interactivity.

Interactivity necessitates that there be moment-to-moment choices that cause you to change your actions in response to what enemies do, in an attempt to minimize the effectiveness of their mechanics. When a champion's fighting pattern is almost completely reliable, then by definition, interactivity is low. Extreme reliability in a fighting pattern is antithetical to interactivity.

It still provides for much diversity

I strongly disagree. I think you're being unrealistically optimistic. You had this change making him a jungler (even though his sustained damage is still insufficient for clearing), and an AP assassin (even though he would still lack sustained mobility, and even though even unreasonable Q damage increases would still not provide him with enough burst to finish someone, unless they allowed him to literally one shot someone instantly as soon as he hit an E, which would be ungodly bad design. It's specifically what we're moving assassins away from).

Frankly, I think you're just wrong about it increasing his playstyle diversity at all. I see no reason to expect that an akali-style mechanic would do anything for that.

the sustain could've been for after he procked the passive I suggested.

So what? Most of his sustain already was locked behind an autoattack that followed up the Q Q. Taking away the tiny amount he got from last hitting a minion with the Q changes nothing.

Also if Shen Q=low interactivity why isn't Akali's Q counted as so?

It is. Akali is the poster child for uninteractive design. It's a significant part of why she has been kept weak for a long time, and why she is eventually slated for a full rework from the ground up. Shen is not being singled out here. He's subject to the same standards other champions are.

And A Real Hiero1 votes

Because Riot hates Shen.

Imperial Japan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bel Boz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEcFQBht,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-11-09T11:53:14.361+0000)

Because Riot hates Shen.

Fair enough

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