Luden's Echo is Cancer

YossarianSensei··4 votes·789 views

I'm sure we've already noticed pretty much everyone and their mother is building item 3285

This item is absolute cancer and here's why:

  • Luden's is here to replace DFG which was removed in the first place because it was used for gibbing squishies instead of busting tanks like it was intended to. Instead, Luden's is just DFG 2.0.

  • Burst damage is VERY marginally balanced - AKA most burst assassins have just barely enough damage in their kits to instantly take someone out in a fight ( <-- does NOT imply exclusively 100-0'ing them). To 'gib', a very strict set of conditions need to be met met (Level advantage, itemization, proper combo, summoners, landing spells). When you have Luden's Echo just dropping another front-loaded flat 100 base damage + 15% scaling AP onto a marginally balanced burst kit, those 'strict set of conditions' become very lenient. AKA imbalanced. -COUGH- Annie Leblanc Viktor Diana

  • In the same way as Burst damage, instant waveclear is also marginally balanced. You need to meet relatively tough criteria to instant waveclear as a mage, Luden's Echo makes it much easier. Ziggs TwistedFate Ahri

  • The concept of an AP item 3087 is dumb. Shiv is barely balanced because most AD Champions have weak waveclear and cannot even come close to 100-0'ing gibbing, not to mention Shiv is limited to crit/AS-scaling champions only who have even weaker waveclear and gibbing potential; But even then Shiv was too strong and needed to be nerfed - it was too cost efficient and gave a huge power boost to champions that were supposed to have a weak early game with its **flat **100 magic damageTryndamere Yasuo. It was also problematic on ADCs that were already doing wayyy too much damage per AA Jinx Draven . Now imagine if Shiv was a AD item (just like how Luden's is an AP item) ..... Zed Riven Talon Rengar JarvanIV Jayce

  • On paper, item 3285 sounds balanced because 'hurr my gurd if I'm attacking Baron for like 5 minutes straight on annie only adds %x DPS"; However, in a real game, especially on mages, you literally only need items during your burst combo. Mages don't stand around dealing DPS, they throw their combo once and then go on CD. Having Luden's proc on your combo is like having far more valuable AP items right when you need them.


TL;DR: The concept of item 3285 fks up balance across the board by distorting power strength and scaling. It gives you way more stats WHEN YOU NEED IT than most champions should have at X point in the game. It's effective gold efficiency is absurd because it gives you those bonus stats every time you pull your combo, which is basically akin to having way more items than you actually do.

9 Comments

Ixoziel3 votes

I really don't see the problem with it. Why? Because lichbane already does far more damage than luden's late game. Lichbane requires an auto, sure, but all that does is make it more specialized. Champs like Fizz / diana / akali don't even notice lichbane, because they automatically have autos / on hit effects in their kit. On champs like this, Lichbane is already better for everything BUT waveclear.

The scaling on the item is horrible. 15% of your ap + 100. that means late game it MIGHT do 200 damage. That's not going to kill anyone, especially after MR. It's also as expensive as Zhonyas / deathcap. Getting 30% more AP from deathcap is usually a far bigger deal than 200 damage. On anivia, for instance, 200 more AP late game is the same as 400 on her Q - E combo plus more damage on her ult.

If you go straight Lichbane / Ludens, you're going to die incredibly fast. That leaves you with absolutely no survivability from your items. Zhonyas is fantastic because it not only gives 50 armor, but it gives the great active that completely counters some ultimates.

You compare it to shiv... and you completely fail to mention quite a few things.

1: shiv is far cheaper than Luden's. The buildup is also OBSCENELY easy. Everything except the recipe is 450g or less, and the recipe is only 600g. 2: shiv has a gold generation item built into it. Sure, you won't get that much from it, but it's not unreasonable to expect 100-200 gold from avarice before you upgrade it, unless you buy it in the same back. 3: Shiv hits everything around it, not just four targets. It does an average of 120 damage... and so does Luden's. Luden's does 100 + 15% of your ap, and gives 120 ap. Sure, you will probably have a little more AP if you rush it, but you will likely get more crit soon for shiv as well. Shiv also does 250 with IE. 4: Shiv is so strong on certain champs that it makes them viable. Looking at you, Yasuo 5: For its price, Shiv also gives fantastic stats. 40% and 20% crit for 2600g is fantastic.

Yes, shiv is limited to champions that like to crit. But that's not the only AD burst item.

item 3074 item 3078 item 3077

Tiamat / Hydra COMPLETELY change the game for many melee champs that arn't crit reliant. It changes crappy farmers with no AoE to great farmers. It scales off your lifesteal. Lategame it can do 300-400 damage on many champs like Wukong / Fiora, and you get massive lifesteal from it (often more than the damage it deals). You can also CHOOSE when to use it.

Trinity Force has a 1.5 second cd and often procs for around 200 physical damage. Once again, like lich bane, you have to cast a spell and then attack, but on certain champs that doesn't really matter. For Ezreal, it's basically free damage. Every 1.5 seconds, his Q gets 200 bonus damage. It also gives a ton of stats that are useful for pretty much everyone, and has a very easy buildup. It also gives the phage speed, which is great. Even though it's more expensive, the items you make (phage, sheen, zeal) are all very useful, and give you some power while you complete the item. They're not like giant rod, which you have to save up 1600g to pay for.

YossarianSensei1 votes

Again, when you look at champions who use items like Triforce and Hydra, very few of them can 100-0, Riven being the only champion I can think of off the top of my head.

item 3074 item 3100 item 3078 are much more restrictive than Luden's. You have to be melee to use Hydra, you pretty much have to be a bruiser or Corki/Ezreal to use Tri-force, and Lich Bane is only single target IF you get the auto-attack off. You'll rarely see an LB/Katarina/Karthus/etc build Lich Bane because it's unlikely those champions will be able to get any autoattacks off.

Ixoziel1 votes

{quoted}

Again, when you look at champions who use items like Triforce and Hydra, very few of them can 100-0, Riven being the only champion I can think of off the top of my head.

item 3074 item 3100 item 3078 are much more restrictive than Luden's. You have to be melee to use Hydra, you pretty much have to be a bruiser or Corki/Ezreal to use Tri-force, and Lich Bane is only single target IF you get the auto-attack off. You'll rarely see an LB/Katarina/Karthus/etc build Lich Bane because it's unlikely those champions will be able to get any autoattacks off.

I pointed out the downsides of lichbane / triforce. That doesn't make it a worse item, it just makes it more specialized. Lichbane also has a .5 ap ratio on it, while Luden's has .15. That means Lichbane has more than 3x the scaling. That's massive.

That doesn't make Luden's better. There are a few champs that are VERY good with Ludens (Katarina, Karthus) because they spam an obscene amount of spells in a short window. If most champs were like Fizz, Luden's would suck, because it's so inferior damage-wise. If most champs were like Kat, Lichbane wouldn't be that great.

I fail to see how "needing to be melee" makes Hydra more restrictive than Luden's. Luden's requires that you need to be an AP caster that doesn't benefit more from Lichbane (unless you want to get both). You don't see ADC or tanks making it.

Lucian and Kog'maw are also very common Triforce users (not Lucian so much anymore).

LaserDeathBlade1 votes

There are plenty of people who rush first item Ludens

It gives better roams with the movespeed and you'll be using fewer spells/mana because your 1 spell cast will mean more. You won't get that kind of performance from Lich Bane because it's not AoE and a lot of mages can't risk auto attacking

LaserDeathBlade3 votes

I kinda have to agree

Even after LB got her AP Ratios nerfed, once they started building Luden's LB's even stronger than before

Widder883 votes

Ludens Echo should just be deleted.

Champions are balanced by base damages and AP ratios. The minimum damage is balanced by the base damage and the damage potential is balanced by the AP ratio. Ludens Echo shits over this balance, because it adds 115 AoE base damage to skills.

Champions are also balanced by their ability to waveclear. Many Champions who are good at something else, are balanced by a bad ability to wave clear. Ludens Echo shits over this balance because it adds wave clear to every champion.

AyRe CoNteMpT2 votes

i fully agree with you and i have to add: welcome to league of ritos design incapability. see all 2014/2015 champions

Lugg1 votes

All Katarina players rush Luden's Echo because once they have it, GG. Riot really needs to up the price on it so it can't be used so early in game.

Ellphi1 votes

IMO it just offers too much shit to Mages who realistically have very few weaknesses outside of being squishy and immobile.

Leblanc has weak waveclear. With Luden's, her burst is much better AND she now has decent waveclear. Katarina Same as LB Annie With Luden's she can easily gib both people and minion waves

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