@Riot. Counterplay Design and Katarina(?)

Solideus·Dec 12, 2014·6 votes·1,214 views

So, is designed for pentakills; her resets makes her want more targets to key-mash on (playing her isn't graceful), AoE, high burst and instant high mobility. But then the "counterplay" to Katarina is to bunch up and focus her? If she doesn't kill you all she can just jump instantly to safety, plus damage reduction. How come there aren't other ways to use skill to avoid being annihilated, like skillshots to dodge?

She is binary, sure; if she didn't get a kill this rotation, a short downtime. But you get to one squishy target? Three kills, four kills, pentakill.

There are weaknesses to her design, but they are easy to overcome (wardhopping) or otherwise out of her opponents' control. What gives? Is it not possible to design a kit that fulfills her niche fantasy but doesn't ALWAYS feel clunky, button-mashy, unfair, hyper snowbally and binary?

25 Comments

Drunk RummateDec 12, 20143 votes

katarina, akali, and to a lesser degree master yi are really annoying champs. it's hard to play them poorly due to the easy skill floor and they have a ridiculous amount of snowball potential with the correct decision making.

i blame part of this on zhonyas which allows the former 2 champs to go in and deal a ton of damage while baiting cc cooldowns with golden mode (because if you dont instantly cc these champions you get penta'd) but for the most part i think it's the fact that these champions entire design is based on high burst damage and resetting cooldowns. one or the other is fine, but having both just screams 'bad design' to me.

i think leblanc, now that she doesn't have her silence, is a really well designed assassin now and she should sort of be the picture that riot aims for when designing one. the ability to outmaneuver and outplay an opponent, the ability to burst a single target (not 5) and a fairly short, but still reasonable cooldown on that burst rotation

JefftiffyDec 12, 20142 votes

Except LB still has the problem of nuking multiple people. She kills one and comes back 5s later and kills another.

Drunk RummateDec 12, 20143 votes

{quoted} Except LB still has the problem of nuking multiple people. She kills one and comes back 5s later and kills another.

If she builds 25% CDR (morello instead of DFG) then she gets an 18 second cooldown (rank 3) on her ultimate. that's nowhere even close to the range of burst that a resetting katarina or akali can achieve. It takes a really long and drawn out fight for a leblanc to get more than 2 kills, or at a minimum her team has to do the majority of damage to several targets that she can clean up with her basic abilities. I'd say fights lasting 18 seconds have plenty of room for counterplay, as opposed to a 5 second fight with katarina getting a triple and then ulting a second time.

SolideusDec 12, 20141 votes

I feel like LB Leblanc comparatively, is stronger picking one or two people off but weaker in a teamfight. Against a Katarina you have committed your team and now everyone's dead, against Leblanc the survivors have a chance back up and hold out until the dead come back.

SolideusDec 12, 20141 votes

Zhonyas is a very good point.

MasterYi I feel is just *slightly *better designed than Katarina after his remake. He deals very high damage but over time, Alpha Strike has a very small but pretty meaningful downtime even with a reset and Meditate creates some back-and-forth play. Still a pain to play against, but obviously design decisions were made to allow a response from his enemies, at least in teamfights.

Akali I hate almost as much as Katarina , but she has felt more manageable recently. It feels wrong that her already super-powerful ult is also loaded with so much damage, though. I would have liked that redistributed into the rest of her kit.

Kuroi86Dec 12, 20141 votes

...

Do you realize what you're saying?

You seriously want to give Kat reliable damage?

If you rework her entire kit, take away her resets, give her mana, make her cool down numbers reasonable, transfer half of her ult damage to her abilities...

You would still have a monster on your hands.

Her lvl 3 would be scarier her lvl 6 is now.

SolideusDec 12, 20141 votes

Oh, the ult thing was About Akali, not Katarina. I think Kat has to much reliable damage already. I'm honestly not sure what Katarina needs to feel healthy and fair, the fantasy she tries to fulfill is inherently problematic to design around.

Drunk RummateDec 12, 20142 votes

{quoted} Oh, the ult thing was About Akali, not Katarina. I think Kat has to much reliable damage already. I'm honestly not sure what Katarina needs to feel healthy and fair, the fantasy she tries to fulfill is inherently problematic to design around.

personally i'd give her cooldowns based on the the possibility that she builds DFG for 10% CDR but not much else, remove her reset mechanic, give her a passive like graves, and make it so that she needs to channel her full ult to get the full damage out on a single target with linear damage rather than the burst it currently has.

SolideusDec 12, 20141 votes

Its hard, because her passive and ult are the most defining parts of her kit, but the resets are soooo powerful and her play-pattern is so badly designed. I would certainly not mind the changes you proposed, but her core playerbase would probably want Riot trying to rebuild around her core identity, if that is even possible without changing it by a lot.

Kuroi86Dec 13, 20141 votes

Honestly, Akali ult damage isn't that great unless you hit multiple times. I've tried Akali a few times and it seems that fighting in bursts is the way to go. Q, then ult in and E plus auto, drop shroud and wait for cool downs to come up and repeat for the kill. I'm not certain there is a good way to nerf Akali without absolutely wrecking her because of how delicate a balancing act she is pulling off.

As for Kat, I expect she'll eventually need a Soraka level rework, her kit as it is is far too feast or famine. You rarely hear about the famine scenarios though. The most vocal people are those that end up getting rolled by her.

BakugoBestBoyDec 12, 20143 votes

Is this a serious thread? Like... no one is actually scared of katarina right? Lets see... Aatrox Ahri Alistar Amumu Anivia Annie Ashe Azir Nah I'm too lazy, those are all the champs in just the A's that can interrupt Kat ult. Serveral Marksmen, Almost all supports, Most junglers, most solo laners have SOME form of hard cc. And Kat mains are stupid confident, they just first pick the dame. Pick 5 champions that can interrupt Kat ult, or just pick a skarner or something. She will do literally nothing in any team fight ever unless you just play like she isn't there. Respect the resets, it's not even hard.

SolideusDec 12, 20141 votes

"Just CC" is the argument that always comes from the other side, but it makes it sound like Kat will just shampoo-jump straight in and try to ult; I'd give more credit to Kat-players than that. For example, R can be used effectively through fog of war. Often a second of channeling is enough, she *does *have three other damage spells. And as mentioned before, a Katarina can bait/counter a lot of CC with a Zhonyas or Quicksilver Sash.

Then there is the devastating button-mashing of Q, W and E that happens after her ult or allies has softened the enemy team a little bit; many times Katarina only has to put in a few ticks of R, if any, to follow up with QEW and secure a few reset-kills within less than a second.

Ale non è maleDec 15, 20142 votes

{quoted} "Just CC" is the argument that always comes from the other side, but it makes it sound like Kat will just shampoo-jump straight in and try to ult; I'd give more credit to Kat-players than that. For example, R can be used effectively through fog of war. Often a second of channeling is enough, she *does *have three other damage spells.

Ehm, sorry, but kata IS really squishy, she can't afford to ulti without having pretty good chances of killing someone to be able to trigger the resets and proceeding to keep killing people or escape. She can be quickly taken down by a pair of champs that synergize together and react accordingly within Shunpo CD if she has just used it to reach you

7ha7guy777Dec 12, 20142 votes

i find the lack or resources and the frontloaded damage on the ult (even if you stop it right away, it does a ton) really annoying.

SolideusDec 12, 20141 votes

I'm okay with no resource-management if there's a tradeoff or some kind of alternative pattern. However, I have a hard seeing what that weakness is supposed to be on Katarina . I guess she isn't the strongest really early, but then she's still super safe, so...?

JefftiffyDec 12, 20141 votes

She is not super safe if you harass her pre-6 she dies or hides under tower. You cc her out of her ult and early game with the huge nerfs to her ult it means a lot.

Play a champ that is very oppressive early game with CC. Fiddlesticks does well. Azir does well. Malzahar does well. Annie is just a laughable lane.

SolideusDec 12, 20141 votes

I'll take the advice to heart, Annie sounds like a good counter. However, I've played a few games where an oppressed early-game didn't stop her from catching up and snowballing later. I'm no master tier or anything, but if she and her team could manage to win a fight or two she could get enough damage to hold her own soon after. She can often get her gold from kills midgame rather than minions early. She could also start ganking if her lane wasn't favorable. Then again, less memorably, I've also played games where early oppression *did * successfully nullify her as a threat, especially if the game stayed short. So it certainly works sometimes.

AlorasenceDec 15, 20142 votes

{quoted} So, is designed for pentakills; her resets makes her want more targets to key-mash on (playing her isn't graceful), AoE, high burst and instant high mobility. But then the "counterplay" to Katarina is to bunch up and focus her? If she doesn't kill you all she can just jump instantly to safety, plus damage reduction. How come there aren't other ways to use skill to avoid being annihilated, like skillshots to dodge?

She is binary, sure; if she didn't get a kill this rotation, a short downtime. But you get to one squishy target? Three kills, four kills, pentakill.

There are weaknesses to her design, but they are easy to overcome (wardhopping) or otherwise out of her opponents' control. What gives? Is it not possible to design a kit that fulfills her niche fantasy but doesn't ALWAYS feel clunky, button-mashy, unfair, hyper snowbally and binary?

"Bunching up" is not how you beat Katarina. You CC her during her ultimate. Gathering into a group is exactly what you should not do. Frankly, if you have been encouraging your team to group up into a bunch, and gather around Katarina....well I can see where your motivation for this thread is coming from.

Katarina is one of the least "clunky" champions in the entire game. She is extremely fluid in her entire kit...which is exactly why people find her frustrating to defeat. She can execute her abilities faster than most people can react to.

Katarina is not a perfeclty designed champion, but I don't think you understand her well enough to comment. I would remind you that Katarina was considered kinda crappy up until about six months ago....and that was due to her ultimate having too much counterplay.

Someone in this thread also commented on Zhonyas being one of the problems with AP assassins. I think Zhonyas is a problematic item right now, and some discussion about it might be worth having.

SolideusDec 15, 20141 votes

Try not to rely on ad hominem arguments.

"Bunching up" was, of course, an euphemism for teamfights. Trying to take her on solo is often an equally bad idea.

"CC during ult" is the persistent mantra, but seems to suggest anyone would just shumpo in and ult willy nilly. Also, she *still *has the rest of her kit; those are what allows her to use her resets for insane multikills. The rest of her rotation deals almost two seconds of her ults damage in an instant. One reset and you deal the same in another instant; it's not like her ult is her only tool. Her ult can be decimating but the rest of her kit is equally dangerous.

And seriously, her rotation being executable all at once is very much *not *what fluidity means. People having no time to react is bad game design, as opposed to what you seem to suggest. Between her resets there is no way she can react and make meaningful decisions mid-engagement; there's just no time to execute tactically. She doesn't seem to need precision, though, which also lends her even more to frantic button-mashing, far from being an elegant play-pattern.

Zhonyas might be an equally big problem though, and is a discussion worth having, yes.

AlorasenceDec 15, 20141 votes

{quoted} Try not to rely on ad hominem arguments.

"Bunching up" was, of course, an euphemism for teamfights. Trying to take her on solo is often an equally bad idea.

"CC during ult" is the persistent mantra, but seems to suggest anyone would just shumpo in and ult willy nilly. Also, she *still *has the rest of her kit; those are what allows her to use her resets for insane multikills. The rest of her rotation deals almost two seconds of her ults damage in an instant. One reset and you deal the same in another instant; it's not like her ult is her only tool. Her ult can be decimating but the rest of her kit is equally dangerous.

And seriously, her rotation being executable all at once is very much *not *what fluidity means. People having no time to react is bad game design, as opposed to what you seem to suggest. Between her resets there is no way she can react and make meaningful decisions mid-engagement; there's just no time to execute tactically. She doesn't seem to need precision, though, which also lends her even more to frantic button-mashing, far from being an elegant play-pattern.

Zhonyas might be an equally big problem though, and is a discussion worth having, yes.

I never attacked your character. I insulted your argument because part of it included advice within that argument for handling Katarina. That advice was "bunching up"....which was stupid.

If that was a euphemism, you don't understand ephemisms and you are an idiot. That was ad hominem. See the difference?

Real talk.

I'm not sure I agree that Katarina has a lot of power outside of her ultimate. Her qwe combo does very little damage compared to other champions and will not net her a reset alone. She needs her ultimate to get started, and if the enemy team responds quickly by dumping cc on her, she won't be able to do what she wants to.

I also don't agree that she doesn't need precision. Most Kat players have already thought out the order of events in their head before they go in. They plan on resets. It is very calculated.

And...

My problem with Zhonyas is basically not the stats on it. People complain about the armor and AP, but honestly its the duration of the active that makes it so frustrating. When people use Zhonyas, and when Kat uses Zhonyas, they don't actually have to activate it to dodge anything specific. The untargetability lasts for so long that you can just fly in and hit zhonyas and wait around for your team to show up because of how long it lasts. I really do think it is the single strongest item in the entire game.

Zhonyas is so powerful that it makes "high risk" champions not all that risky.

There are some problems with nerfing it however......a lot of champions rely on it so much (Diana). And a lot of other champions would be stupid OP if it wasn't in the game (Zed, Talon,).

Poro PrincessDec 16, 20141 votes

{quoted}

I never attacked your character. I insulted your argument because part of it included advice within that argument for handling Katarina. That advice was "bunching up"....which was stupid.

If that was a euphemism, you don't understand ephemisms and you are an idiot. That was ad hominem. See the difference?

Real talk.

I'm not sure I agree that Katarina has a lot of power outside of her ultimate. Her qwe combo does very little damage compared to other champions and will not net her a reset alone. She needs her ultimate to get started, and if the enemy team responds quickly by dumping cc on her, she won't be able to do what she wants to.

I also don't agree that she doesn't need precision. Most Kat players have already thought out the order of events in their head before they go in. They plan on resets. It is very calculated.

And...

My problem with Zhonyas is basically not the stats on it. People complain about the armor and AP, but honestly its the duration of the active that makes it so frustrating. When people use Zhonyas, and when Kat uses Zhonyas, they don't actually have to activate it to dodge anything specific. The untargetability lasts for so long that you can just fly in and hit zhonyas and wait around for your team to show up because of how long it lasts. I really do think it is the single strongest item in the entire game.

Zhonyas is so powerful that it makes "high risk" champions not all that risky.

There are some problems with nerfing it however......a lot of champions rely on it so much (Diana). And a lot of other champions would be stupid OP if it wasn't in the game (Zed, Talon,).

Although I can understand your frustration, Kat can be countered by CC really easily after a Zhonyas. Most Kats will use Zhonyas to wait for her cooldowns in a fight. If you have a Cait trap, Jinx trap, or any sort of instant area stun/snare, place it below her before Zhonyas is up. It is literally impossible for Kat to shunpo away from those if they are used right. Kat is then dead. Zhonyas is really not an issue.

SolideusDec 16, 20141 votes

If euphemisms are confusing I'll refrain from using them. Your tone isn't appropriate, though. Her burst damage without her ult is in the same ballpark as similar characters under similar constraints, but spikes up markedly, of course, if she gets, say, a little of her ult in or a reset. Her ult is not necessarily required to set up a reset either, unless she is literally the only one with any damage on the team. Her QEW is also cost-free, requires little setup and is very quick and reliable (i.e. little chance to react, no skillshots).

Some assassin-type characters, Leblanc Zed , skew the average upwards of course, but that is a different issue. LeBlanc's damage-level with a reset passive like Katarina's could obviously not be alowed to be a thing.

Poro PrincessDec 15, 20142 votes

Okay, I'm a support main, but I love to play Kat so I'm going to give the most unbiased opinion I can give.

Kat, at least to me, is a very reflex-based champion. I rely nearly entirely on my reflexes to dodge stuff, be it just moving sideways (I have MS quints) or just Shunpoing out of the way of skillshots. That said, increasing Kat's cooldowns disastrously ruins her current style of play. Therefore, let's not even talk about changing that. This includes her reset mechanic. Lots of other champions have resets, it doesn't break the game.

Countering Kat. There are several ways you can counter Kat. Let me explain the most annoying ones I have to deal with when I play Kat. I'll start with laning since everyone should know by now how snowball-y assassins are.

Counter in Laning

When laning against Kat there are a few things the Kat player will be trying to do:

Not get hit by skillshots
Get as much farm as possible without using all her health pots
Try to poke down the enemy mid laner to set up for a future kill

So at this point, its pretty obvious that most Kats will have a harder time against champions that have targetted or large area damaging spells, do high burst, are tanky, have good sustain, or are able to poke constantly.

Some of these champions include:

Annie (high burst, targetted + area damage, decent poke)
Ezreal (high burst, skillshot intensive, but great poke and can farm from range avoiding Kat's poke)
Jayce (high burst, some skillshots but can gap close and does great poking)
Diana (high burst, tanky, shields block poke)
Swain (lots and lots of sustain, tanky, can easily kick Kat out of lane)
Syndra (high burst; some skillshots need to land, but if the spheres are down, one area spell and Kat's stunned for a good amount of time; ult is targetted)

Playing any of these champions even semi-decently will make Kat think twice before doing anything at any point in the game. Winning the lane isn't enough however. Being a Kat player, whenever I am dealing with an opponent above that is successfully denying me farm and kills, I'm just going to roam. A lot. Remember that an assassin can easily sustain themselves with kills instead of farm. Zoning them will delay them, but not stop their snowball. Therefore, know how to react when the enemy Kat is roaming. Alert the team when she's missing, make sure bot is warded at all times (bot is easy early double kill and will most likely be camped by a Kat, most top laners are horrible to gank as Kat)

Ganking Kat during lane

So many junglers make this mistake. It's super easy as a Kat to avoid a gank because of the mobility she has with her Shunpo (E) which teleports her to a target location. However, this ability has a LONG cooldown. Unless Kat gets an assist or kill, it'll be approximately 11-13 seconds before she can do anything useful. Kats only engage when E is up, and only can escape when E is up. Therefore, when ganking, let her use her E before you come to her! Most Kats at early level are using their Es to farm anyway, this is a perfect time to gank. Come from behind immediately after she wastes her E, and cc her to try to get a kill. Also remember, not having a target is not a reason to gank. Any semi-decent Kat can ward jump, and very fast. So always make sure to screw her over when she wastes it on a minion.

Highlighting the 3rd point on the first list above, Kat will try to poke the mid laner down. That being said, don't be an idiot and stick around in lane with 300hp or less... You'd be surprised how many people do this. They're confident because they're under tower. It's not safe. Kat snowballs really easily with an early kill. This means that most Kats are willing to tower dive at level 3 and use their flash to engage since if they're successful their escape is back up again. Don't stay in lane if you're low. No, I don't care if you want to farm more. A couple of minions is not worth dying to a Kat.

Counter during teamfights

Despite what many people think, stuns and hard CCs are not what counters Kats later in the game. It's the exact opposite.

You see, Kat, like any assassin, needs to choose the right time to engage. The time to engage is when at least one enemy is low and all CCs are used up. Keeping everyone at full health is difficult and everyone already tries to do that anyway, but using your CC is big. I'm not saying you should focus Kat. Not even that, just don't use a hard CC. The threat of a stun to a Kat is much more frightening than anything else. An Annie with a spiral flame on her will guarantee even the most fed Kat will not engage. Same goes for any 1-click ability that screws her over (Warwick ult, Blitz ult, Annie stun, Leona stuns, Janna tornadoes, etc.).

Obviously, if she does go in anyway, then blast her with CC. Kats are squishy, which means that if you keep her pinned down for 1.5 seconds or more, she's dead. Suppression ults are great at doing this. Vi, Warwick, Skarner, and Malzahar can all screw over a Kat.

Another thing you can do is end the fight early. Kat will only engage when she thinks she can kill. Which means that sometimes in long fights involving multiple tanks, Kat may actually be just on the other side of a wall waiting to engage. What does that mean? It means the fight you're actually fighting is a 4v5. End it early, try to not use up all your CC, and if you're low, back away from the fight. One teammate low is a threat to your entire team. This is against any assassin.

General opinion on other aspects: Kat's damage is fine. In fact, Kat does very little damage at early levels. So low in fact that most people choose to play her with low mobility just to get damage early. Meaning AP quints instead of MS quints. They are easy to gank because of this! Not to mention they won't be able to roam a lot. But the point is, if they're playing Kat right, they won't do damage at all early game. They will only get a kill if you are really really really low. (Don't get low). Kat's scaling however, does a lot of damage in her ult. This however is not OP. Why? Because no Kat should ever be able to fully channel her ult. Kat is super vulnerable during her ult and therefore shouldn't ever stay in one place for too long. A good Kat in a teamfight will ult for a splitsecond near someone who is nearly dead and immediately E+W onto the next low health enemy when the reset comes up. Specifically to make her hard to hit. If you deny her the first reset, she'll be sitting there for 2.5 seconds waiting to get out and won't be able to. And she'll die. Kat's ult is fine damage-wise. Cooldown on her ult? Was already nerfed. By quite a bit in fact. Kat would normally use her ult early game for extra damage even if it didn't kill, the cooldown was really low, and that was a good harrass tool. However, with the most recent changes, her ult cooldown at early levels actually can screw her over. If she doesn't have her ult up, she doesn't do damage to kill. Therefore if you get her to waste her ult in the early game, you're probably safe for the next 80 seconds or so.

Tips: If Kat jumps on you, don't panic. Especially if you have a champion that has something you can use. Ahri for example can be used to screw a Kat over. Kat's most common harrass combo is Q + E + W and then run away with the extra movement speed. Repeating until you're low on health. If she does that to you as Ahri, don't panic. Remember that Kat's E will take her behind you (so don't shoot your charm straight at her when she's walking to you, it's a ridiculously easy dodge), therefore save your charm to shoot it at her after she lands. Not immediately after however. A good Kat will be expecting your charm if you save it, therefore let her run to the side first before trying to land your charm. If you land your charm on Kat during lane, you will do more damage to her than she did to you simply because Kat does no damage during the pre-6 levels.

If you're having a very difficult time with Kat, I suggest you play her. Playing a champion that makes you frustrated will help you understand her limitations. You will be able to better counter a Kat once you are able to play her decently.

Sorry for the long post, hope some of this information you find useful :3

SolideusDec 16, 20141 votes

I would propose that the one biggest problem with Katarina is her passive, which is problematic because that is also her most defining trait.

Her passive could be designed differently, say partial or limited resets or diminishing returns. Alternatively, a kit that is more easily anticipated, readable and has a slightly more spread-out play pattern could make the passive less overwhelming. Button-mashing, as now, is obviously a sub-optimal experience, certainly for her opponents.

ABlueQuakerDec 16, 20141 votes

Reset champions are only an issue if communication breaks down on the non-reset champion team. Not even kidding - the best counter to katarina is to not p*ss off your teammates and make sure she isn't given the opportunity to become an issue.

Source: I'm a pretty solid, consistent Katarina player and the last time I played her I had my *ss saved by our split-pushing zed who killed the enemy nexus before ours died because I was the only threat and they did a good job at shutting me down.