A while back you removed alistar's ability to autoattack after his knock back

360D3GR3SS·Oct 10, 2015·122 votes·5,169 views

Yet lee still can auto attack after his knock back and it is far more problematic since his autos hurt.

93 Comments

HateDaddyOct 10, 201549 votes

Lol

One champion can't auto attack after a basic ability but one can after an ultimate. What a stupid comparison.

Let's be frank, solo lane Alistar has never been balanced when it's good, whether it was AP or AD Alistar, he engaged on you and bursted you as AP with no counterplay and he'd headbutts+AA or pulv+AA as AD and out trade you without you being able to do anything about it. The whole premise of his kit is very low counterplay with insane stats. He has to be a support, whenever he's been anything else, he's broken the game completely.

AuroramancerOct 10, 201522 votes

So then we're just going to ignore the insanely high AD ratio on Lee's ultimate and how toxic that is when coupled with strong AD builds on Lee Sin for his auto attacks?

Yeah I get that Alistar's headbutt+AA hurt a lot and denies his target counterplay, but so does Lee Sin's +200% Bonus AD ratio for 700+ dmg assassination ults on carry targets with a follow up auto attack for 250~ dmg

HateDaddyOct 10, 20158 votes

{quoted}

So then we're just going to ignore the insanely high AD ratio on Lee's ultimate and how toxic that is when coupled with strong AD builds on Lee Sin for his auto attacks?

Yeah I get that Alistar's headbutt+AA hurt a lot and denies his target counterplay, but so does Lee Sin's +200% Bonus AD ratio for 700+ dmg assassination ults on carry targets with a follow up auto attack for 250~ dmg

Do you not realize how stupid this sounds? You're comparing an ultimate to a basic ability. One has a cooldown of 10 seconds at max rank, on a champion who will build 40% CDR dropping it to 6 seconds and 650 range, the other is an ultimate with a 60 second cooldown with 375 range on a champion, that at most, will itemize 20-30% CDR, bringing it down to a 48-42 second cooldown. And if you want to talk about base damage and scaling, keep in mind Lee's ult scales with BONUS AD, not total AD. Alistars W has a 275 base damage max rank with 70% TOTAL AP scaling, meaning that if they both build heavy damage (Lee AD, Ali AP), they're both going to do roughly the same amount of damage. So even though it's a stupid comparison to make in an attempt at trying to bring Lee's ult into a bad light, in reality, you're making an argument that Ali's W is potentially even more broken. Nevermind the fact that if he could still AA immediately after W, with a lich bane proc, how much more damage Ali would end up doing.

AuroramancerOct 11, 20154 votes

Let's do some math crafting for this if we're going to be comparing hard values: 2 damage items (typical build), level 18

Alistar item 3027 item 3100 (lich bane is used because you are considering it for your argument) Say, +25 AP from runes+masteries Base Attack Damage: 123 AD 205 AP total Headbutt damage: 418 damage Lich bane damage: 195 on-hit damage Total damage from Headbutt + Lich Bane proc + auto attack: 736 damage

LeeSin item 3074 item 3035 Say, +20 AD from runes+masteries Total Attack Damage: 251 AD (116 base + 135 bonus) Dragon's Rage damage: 600 base + 270 bonus = 870 total damage Auto attack damage: 251 damage Total damage from Dragon's Rage + auto attack = 1,121 damage

Keep in mind that I'm making the argument against Lee Sin being allowed to auto attack after he ults, I'm not making the case for Alistar to get his auto attack after headbutt back.

Hard number crunching, Lee Sin's ult+auto combo deals 152% more damage than Alistar's headbutt+auto combo.

Now we also have to consider the context of how these knockback ability+auto combos operate in: Alistar's combo makes use of his disengage but also a gap-closer. When Alistar does this combo, he has put his enemy at a distance away from him, denying him any further follow-up. Suppose he uses Pulverize before executing the combo, that tacks on an extra (240base+103bonus) = 343 damage Q+lich bane auto+W+lich bane auto = 1151 total combo damage

When Lee Sin does this combo, most of the time, the target is tagged with a Sonic Wave before executing the combo, then Resonating Strike after the combo is performed. Suppose Lee Sin does this for his combo, that tacks on an extra (170base+121bonus) + (170base+121bonus+113missingHp) = 695 damage Q1+Ult+auto+Q2 = 1816 total combo damage

The average non-tank support has 1800~~base hp, +150 hp from Sightstone = 1950 hp (remember, 2 typical items, Sightstone is like the only early hp item that non-tank supports get) The average marksman has 1950~~base hp (hp items are not typical)

Alistar's optimal combo (essentially, his entire kits damage) deals 59% of the average Marksman's or non-tank Support's hp bar.

Lee Sin's combo deals 94% of the average Marksman's or non-tank Support's hp bar. And we're not even counting auto attacks he can string in there from using his Safeguard as a gap closer and using Tempest as another damage source.

Bottom fucking line, yes Alistar's combo will hurt like hell, but at least you can live from it and retaliate after it's over. With Lee Sin's combo, you're barely going to live, and one fuck-up after the combo is over will kill you.

Alistar may have been toxic with the mechanic, and thank god it was removed, but Lee Sin needs to fucking have it removed as well. It's a kick in the face (haha) for him to have this mechanic when his AD ratios are fucking absurd as they are. Yes, I do believe his AD ratios need to be nerfed too, but the first step should be in homogenizing knockback abilities and the inability to auto attack immediately after they are cast. The amount of times that I have played a squishy champion, been 30-40% hp, Lee Sin safeguards to a ward next to me, fails to kill me with his ult but the follow-up auto attack kills me...

Hyrum GraffOct 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Let's do some math crafting for this if we're going to be comparing hard values: 2 damage items (typical build), level 18

-snip-

Your analysis makes no sense. The AA-after-knockback combo isn't a problem in teamfights, it's just a way of saying "champ X gets a bit more damage." Yes, you need to balance around that damage. But the damage itself is not an inherent problem.

The combo IS a problem in lane. When you can max E and every 10 seconds, have a point-and-click, 650-range ability that lets you deny the opponent from csing AND leave them completely unable to trade back at you, while also being potent harass after sheen. That's basically an ability that says, "don't come near me or else," and that's not OK in a solo lane.

Headbutt RANGE: 650 COOLDOWN: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10

Dragon's Rage RANGE: 375 COOLDOWN: 90 / 75 / 60

AuroramancerOct 11, 20151 votes

Sounds like you didn't even read what I posted, because you would have read...

Keep in mind that I'm making the argument against Lee Sin being allowed to auto attack after he ults, I'm not making the case for Alistar to get his auto attack after headbutt back.

and...

Alistar may have been toxic with the mechanic, and thank god it was removed, but Lee Sin needs to fucking have it removed as well.

Lee Sin doesn't need the mechanic, given the extra damage he gets out of his absurd damage ratios as is, and to homogenize the concept of "champions with knockbacks shouldn't be able to attack a knocked back target immediately after cast"

Hyrum GraffOct 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Sounds like you didn't even read what I posted, because you would have read...

and...

Lee Sin doesn't need the mechanic, given the extra damage he gets out of his absurd damage ratios as is, and to homogenize the concept of "champions with knockbacks shouldn't be able to attack a knocked back target immediately after cast"

And it sounds like you didn't read mine either.

I am not saying literally ANYTHING about whether Lee has too much damage.

I AM saying there's VERY little difference between allowing Lee to AA after his ult and just giving him +100% base AD onto the ult's damage. It's a simple matter of numbers tuning.

It was an issue for alistar because he bought a sheen, so Sheen-AA adds +200% base ad to the damage of a 10 second cd ability. Even Lee's ult doesn't have that (it's bonus AD. Granted its base is insane and it scales with enemy hp too).

That bears repeating: with sheen, Alistar's headbutt had an effective 200% TOTAL AD SCALING on a 10 SECOND COOLDOWN, on a 625 RANGE ability.

All this aside, it's gone over most people's heads that I actually do think this ability should be removed. However, the reason is because I think it doesn't make thematic sense that you can punch someone after you kick them away, and because it makes Lee's skill floor a little bit higher, which means he's easier to balance for both high and low elo.

But I do think the reasons behind the change are important, and saying "We should do it to Lee because we did it to Alistar" is not a good enough reason in my book.

killd0zerOct 11, 20153 votes

is this a joke?

Ali's W is a normal ability on like a 10 sec cooldown, that's available from level 1. Stupid comparison to an ultimate.

Ali's also has range, Lee's is borderline melee. Fucking apples & oranges.

My Waifu VanillaOct 12, 20151 votes

It is so cute of you to put rank 3 ult to prove a point. If you are going to make an argument with very few items you have to make it relevant to the items bought and not level 18 where Ali W damage is capped at level 9 and has an AP ratio attached to it. Either you need to do a full build at 18 or use your two items based off level 11 stats where it is more reasonable.

Guy Fox TeemoOct 11, 20157 votes

SEe but alistars not SUPPOSE to do damage, he's a tank, not a fcking Brusier

AuroramancerOct 11, 201514 votes

Let me correct you.

Alistar is not supposed to do damage while building tank, and is typically NOT VIABLE when building only damage. Lee Sin has the ability to nearly ASSASSINATE targets while building as a fighter. That's broken as shit.

GorgannanOct 11, 20153 votes

If he's got 250 AD, he's not building as a fighter. He's building as a glass cannon.

MysticFlameHazeOct 11, 20152 votes

Okay, lee sin can get 251 ad with just these items item 3707 item 3071 item 3748 without runes and masteries at max rank. he can also build tank after that item 3143 item 3065 . that's not glass cannon. considering how much health he gets out of those items as well. 3616 Health, again without runes or masteries.

GorgannanOct 11, 20152 votes

If that's what he's building while beating you, you've got problems and it's not his one auto after his ult.

MysticFlameHazeOct 12, 20152 votes

lol why that's a typical lee sin build?

GorgannanOct 12, 20151 votes

He'll be plenty squishy for the first 20 minutes of the game with a build like that, and late game will still get 4 shotted by an ADC.

MysticFlameHazeOct 12, 20151 votes

Right, but lee sins only build those items when ahead, he doesn't have to grab the damage items first anyway.

IcyPepperOct 12, 20151 votes

That's not a tank build, that's a bruiser build.

You have two pure damage items, two pure defensive items, and one in-between. Warrior then four defensive items would be a tank build.

MysticFlameHazeOct 13, 20151 votes

Even so, my point is that him getting 250 AD does not mean he is a glass canon, and yeah bruiser fits better.

IcyPepperOct 13, 20151 votes

Fair enough.

Most Lee's go warrior then full tank, relying on his utility. With this build, he won't last long in teamfights on the frontline but he could potentially kill a carry.

I GANK LANESOct 11, 20153 votes

so there's something wrong with lee doing lots of damage when building squishy and lots of damage? lol

LlaniteOct 12, 20151 votes

Riot has stated that Lee is balance and it will stay that way.

Comparing abilities in a vacuum is the most pointless argument, ever.

360D3GR3SSOct 10, 20152 votes

My question is why leave it on lee and remove from ali if it was weak on ali and strong on lee.

ZephyrDrakeOct 10, 20158 votes

{quoted}

My question is why leave it on lee and remove from ali if it was weak on ali and strong on lee.

weak on Alistar? you kidding me? Alistar could just chunk you out little by little the instant he got a item 3057 item since the CD of his knockback is significantly lower than that of Lee's. One has it's knockback on a basic ability while the other is tied to an ult. Guess which one is up more often?

IcyPepperOct 10, 20151 votes

Do you think Alistar is deserving of a rework in the far future? o.O

HateDaddyOct 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Do you think Alistar is deserving of a rework in the far future? o.O

If he remains as a support and nothing else, no. His kit fits thematically, he's also a very good engage/disengage tank who can soak damage. He does this innately and when he's behind, it doesn't suddenly overwhelm you and when he's ahead, well he's ahead, what do you expect? He's balanced as a support, if he's able to do anything else, he's broken as fuck.

LuciferOct 11, 20153 votes

His kit doesn't entirely fit thematically. Why the fuck does he have a heal?

EedatOct 10, 201525 votes

Not sure if comparing an Ult to a normal ability is really fair. If you remember back as to why Riot did this, it was because top lane Alistar would commonly build some form of sheen (Triforce or Iceborn) and could use his headbutt to sneak in an instant Triforce proc with no counterplay as you got flung back before you could retaliate

Titanium70Oct 10, 20155 votes

Guys PLS there is something called consistence! If one Melee Champion cant AA after a Knockback and the other can - that´s no balance thats a huge pile of smelly BS!

We all know there are alot of abilities that are not consistend, but still - the OP does have a point here.

HateDaddyOct 10, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Guys PLS there is something called consistence! If one Melee Champion cant AA after a Knockback and the other can - that´s no balance thats a huge pile of smelly BS!

We all know there are alot of abilities that are not consistend, but still - the OP does have a point here.

Just because two things are similar doesn't mean they're the same. One is a basic ability with low/no counterplay, the other is an ultimate with considerably more counterplay.

Titanium70Oct 11, 20155 votes

Similar? This is two examples have exactly the same mechanic with the difference that one champ can chain an AA with the knockback and the other cant!

Where has a targeted knockback more counterplay than a targeted knockback? And how in the world would this affect the interaction with AAs???

I ask to remeber: This is not a "Nerf Lee Sin"-Post, it´s just a plain and simple statement: _Those knockbacks dont work on a consistend base. _

TehNACHOOct 11, 20157 votes

One has nearly half the range of the other, for a start.

It also has like, what, the cooldown time of an ultimate ability?

LeeDarkOct 11, 20152 votes

Except Lee Sin does the same thing, except instead of a short trade that you are still alive after, he jumps behind your turret, assassinates you, and gets away clean.

Hayaishi2Oct 10, 201517 votes

Lee Sin's knock back has 3 times the CD Ali's does.

LeeDarkOct 11, 20152 votes

It also has more than three times the damage.

Hayaishi2Oct 11, 20156 votes

{quoted}

It also has more than three times the damage.

But Lee sin ultimate isn't his main trading tool.

The reason why Ali can't AA when he headbutts it's because it's impossible to trade back against it. Lee Sin doing it has little impact in his gameplay anyways, unlike Ali's which was plain unhealthy.

EndlessSorcererOct 10, 201513 votes

Alistar's autoattacks hurt severely when that change was made.

If you aren't aware, they made that change to Alistar when he was a dominant top laner who built Trinity Force and Statikk Shiv. If you tried to fight him during laning phase, he would just knock you up and walk away. If you tried to farm, he would knock you away and chunk you for a significant portion of your health with an autoattack.

HorrowOct 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Alistar's autoattacks hurt severely when that change was made.

If you aren't aware, they made that change to Alistar when he was a dominant top laner who build Trinity Force and Statikk Shiv. If you tried to fight him during laning phase, he would just knock you up and walk away. If you tried to farm, he would knock you away and chunk you for a significant portion of your health with an autoattack.

Sounds like the counter we need to fight fucking darius.

Spaceman5pffOct 12, 20151 votes

Alistar He's the Hero this Rift needs... just not the one it deserves...

Sightless66Oct 10, 201511 votes

Alistar got that change because it was a problem in the laning phase. Alistar could build sheen and headbut-auto someone during the laning phase to get a high damage trade that many opponents couldn't respond to. It made him the strongest top laner for a couple of patches. I'll be honest, Lee being able to auto after his ult isn't something I've ever even noticed. Not really the same as Alistar's stuff.

LeeDarkOct 11, 20151 votes

You don't notice it, but it is there, and it does make a difference. It's part of how Lee Sin assassinates people behind their own turret in the early game. If it was oppressive on Ali, and it was, it is every bit as oppressive on Lee Sin.

Sightless66Oct 11, 20156 votes

If it was oppressive on Ali, and it was, it is every bit as oppressive on Lee Sin.

Buuuuullllllllshiiiiiiit. Lee doesn't use his kick in the same way that Alistar used his headbutt autos in lane. It's not his trading tool. Alistar used it to force unanswerable and punishing trades extremely often in lane. Lee doesn't do that. He uses it for a slight damage boost to his ult. Increased damage on an ult is not equivalent to spammable, mostly unanswerable trades. Those aren't even remotely similar problems. Lee autoing after his ult isn't oppressive.

You don't notice it, but it is there, and it does make a difference.

If I'm not noticing it, it's not oppressive. An oppressive mechanic has to actually oppress someone. It has to feel unjust, annoying, irritating, unfair. It can't be those things if it's not even drawing my attention.

Seriously man. No. Just no.

GetMariahCarriedOct 10, 20159 votes

There's another major difference between the two abilities (other than one being an ult and the other an ability). Lee has to be in melee range to ult. Ali does NOT have to be in melee range to knockback.

Hence why ali could sneak a sheen proc in without counterplay, but lee can't. There is NO inconsistence here and it aint "a pile of smelly BS". You're drawing way too much parallel between these two abilities. They aren't the same.

And per previous comments, even if lee could sneak it in without any counterplay, ali could still do it a bajillion times more often.

Both cooldown and range are huge factors. These are NOT small differences.

Hyrum GraffOct 11, 20158 votes

#Your thread assumes that this combo is problematic.

#It is not.

Dragon's Rage RANGE: 375 COOLDOWN: 90 / 75 / 60 Becomes available at level 6

Headbutt RANGE: 650 COOLDOWN: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 Available at level 1.

I hope this illustrates that the combo is problematic a problem in lane.

When you can max E and every 10 seconds, have a medium-range, targeted ability that lets you deny the opponent from csing AND leave them completely unable to trade back at you, while also being potent harass (esp. after sheen). That's basically an ability that says, "don't come near me or else." In lane, this translates to, "Don't stay in lane, or else."

THAT is not okay. Giving lee an extra bit of damage on his ult is just another level to balance his damage on, not a game mechanic that is inherently broken.

Edit: I'm not saying that the lever is tuned correctly. I'm saying there's nearly no difference between a 2x scaling AD ult that you can AA after and a 3x scaling AD ult that you can't, assuming both Lee's are proficient enough to pull of the aa.

LeeDarkOct 11, 20154 votes

Right, because a 2x scaling AD ult needs extra damage.

Hyrum GraffOct 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Right, because a 2x scaling AD ult needs extra damage.

What's the difference between a 2x scaling AD ult that you can AA after and a 3x scaling AD ult that you can't, assuming both Lee's are proficient enough to pull of the aa?

The point is it's just another lever to balance. Whether it's tuned properly is a different matter entirely.

Only Play DariusOct 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E1whUoAA,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-10-11T02:13:40.886+0000)

That's basically an ability that says, "don't come near me or else."

Sounds like the same exact reason they changed Darius's Q

Why not just add a windup to headbutt