Just noticed - Shen's up for a rework.

Cynical Rain··30 votes·3,350 views

Please, I beg you...don't rape him.

Don't add silly effects, and paragraphs worth of BS for each skill.

Please...it's not asking much...

The man's supposed to dash-taunt enemies, teleport-shield allies, and be tanky.

I don't even see why he needs a rework, but if you insist...please...be gentle.

Be gentle Riot, I beg you.

Also, if Vorpal Blade or Ki Strike have an 'every 3rd attack' stipulation added...I swear I will throw tomatoes at your office.

It really isn't asking much...truly...it isn't.

74 Comments

Vhalthoria20 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cynical Rain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E07ldIdB,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-22T17:11:43.277+0000)

Please, I beg you...don't rape him.

Don't add silly effects, and paragraphs worth of BS for each skill.

Please...it's not asking much...

The man's supposed to dash-taunt enemies, teleport-shield allies, and be tanky.

I don't even see why he needs a rework, but if you insist...please...be gentle.

Be gentle Riot, I beg you.

Also, if Vorpal Blade or Ki Strike have an 'every 3rd attack' stipulation added...I swear I will throw tomatoes at your office.

It really isn't asking much...truly...it isn't.

As long as CertainlyT is not the person who's going to rework him, he should be fine.

Canastus10 votes

You should much rather pray that Stashu doesn't get his hands on him. Cassiopeia item 3070

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

To be fair, it wasn't Stashu's choice to drop Cass.

Saianna8 votes

Maybe, but he could have told us what's the situation or what will happen with Cass from now on.

He didn't.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E07ldIdB,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-10-23T03:03:07.709+0000)

To be fair, it wasn't Stashu's choice to drop Cass.

Yeah, but even if he'd been able to fix her eventually she still would have been a mess for 6+ months. Ideally I imagine Shen fans would like him to not need a re-rework immediately after his rework comes out.

A Miss Fortune5 votes

Oh god.

First we have a machine gun Cassiopeia, then we have a machine gun Ryze, imagine Shen chucking out vorpal blades every .5 seconds.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Machine-gun. . . Tank?

Remlap12232 votes

Well, tanks generally have machine guns. It's a pretty shitty tank without one.

Zair Umbras11 votes

Riot has stated before that they wanted to keep his R and his E, but they feel his Q is a bit overly strong. It gives sustain to him if he chooses to Q+AA a minion and it can also be used to poke down an enemy for no cost at all. It's a bit on the strong side, but if they nerfed it anymore than what it is, it'd be too weak since it's his only trading ability since his E has such a huge cost, which also can't be toned down since his E is a powerful AoE taunt. He just needs a rework so they can properly tune him and his R. Currently, all he's got going for him is splitpushing and pressing R, which... I mean... That's a bit too similar to Yi and Tryn. lol.

Melledoneus3 votes

Shen's Qis the worst healing mechanism in the game. It scales terribly, too. The most it does is take the edge off poke in laning phase.

Also, Shen's natural split pushing abilities are mediocre. His wave clear is terrible.

Zair Umbras3 votes

The heal is a free potion and helps help sustain a lot better than most would expect. In a fight, it's not amazing, but in the laning phase to press Q then AA the minion, you can sustain well unless the enemy is, like, a Riven, then after some armor you'll be able to sustain in between trades pretty damn easy.

As for his split pushing, his splitting is mediocre, but when it comes down to it, that's all Shen does. He split pushes all day long until a fight happens, then he's pressing R into the fight.

Melledoneus3 votes

I've already crunched the numbers before, and it's not as much as you think.

Late game, with a full health stacking build, it hardly reaches 130 health regen total for one Q-AA. You overestimate Shen's sustain. If you've ever seen Shen Q-AA and heal for a lot, it's probably because he's combining it with a health potion's effects. I've had people say "Shen sustain too stronk" even though my Q is giving me hardly 30 HP back per auto attack over the full duration, which is usually interrupted by hitting the target again.

As a Shen main, split pushing against most teams is a terrible idea. Many popular top laners out-duel and destroy Shen at that point, and have the mobility to follow him if he tries to escape. Also, his ult's shield is not as good as you think for saving carries. And you have no idea how many times the front line starts running when I ult him, so locking down the back line becomes impossible.

Zair Umbras2 votes

Eh. It was a lot stronger prior to the nerf. It had been nerfed for a reeeaaaason after all. It was 2 per sec plus .5%. With a Doran's shield, the usual item I see Shens start with, he'd be around 780ish health, that's about 4 per sec plus the 2, so 6 health per sec, just 4 under the normal pot. Now it's 1 per sec, so it's 5 per sec at level 1, meaning it's a half efficient potion, but he's got it even when he doesn't have any potions. I won't say it's amazingly strong, but it's still worth mentioning just like lane-wise, Mundo's passive gives him .3% of his health per sec. Normally, that's not worth mentioning, but in lane because it's a constant, it actually keeps him up fairly well.

Melledoneus2 votes

All the nerf did was make Shen jungle less viable. The healing was crap even before that, and requires you to get in harass range to get it off.

Zair Umbras2 votes

Depends. If you Q+AA a minion, you're not getting in harass range. You're just sustaining after a trade while they wait for CD's and/or mana.

Melledoneus1 votes

In matchups where Shen is zoned away from farm, you have to get pushed to turret to even touch minions. In matchups like Cho'Gath, not even turret can save you. Also, Q+AA is a good way to sustain after trades, but it doesn't count for the fact that you're going into melee range, which is exactly where most popular top laners excel.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

item 3748 believe

Melledoneus1 votes

It's ok, but the way I play Shen is that one guy who sacrifices top turret for a double kill bot lane and a turret, and maybe even a dragon.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

Of course global pressure is important on Shen; anyone who disagrees would be better off playing a completely different champion. However, to maximize the effectiveness of said pressure, it's necessary to have good waveclear (hence why Sunfire's is popular on Shen). Your opponents will be pressed to send someone to stop your splitpush, only to have you teleport away and win a teamfight, or ignore you and have you mow down a row of turrets. Without good waveclear, there isn't as much of an incentive to try and stop you, because you'll take so long to push that you'll probably have to ult out of lane before you can get half a tower.

Melledoneus1 votes

I believed it once, too. And it does work in some situations, but it's difficult against teams who have hard engage. Also, top laners who can shred Shen because of bullshit DPS (Fiora) can stop a split push and keep him from teleporting to his team to help by killing him while he channels his ultimate. It used to be so powerful, but now tanks are just being shit on by Riot with all this true damage, % max HP damage, % max HP true damage, and general overall nerfs to tanks, because god forbid I survive for a few more seconds because I'm a tank, and I build tankiness to do that.

Ralanr5 votes

I think all they're changing is his Q and W.

Jesus Died 4 You3 votes

And passive.

Blade of Justic4 votes

"We feel that, much like with Sion, Shen has a weak identity. Instead of him being either a Tank or a ninja, like Sion, we'll make him neither. He is now a marksman." - Rito 2016

Kaeblen1 votes

To be honest, I don't know of many long-shot misses Riot has made with these reworks. Everyone brings upCassiopeia Mordekaiser , but I don't know of any others that were really devastating. I know Twitch hurt some folks, but that was before my time here. Would you mind filling me in?

Zair Umbras2 votes

I never heard anyone complain about Twitch's rework, but that's probably because he was reworked... like... late season 2 and it was a rather big improvement. It was overshadowed by Evelynn's rework and Zyra's release though, both had happened in the same patch as Twitch's rework...

Most people like to say every rework is a failure regardless of it actually was. Cass wasn't actually a failure since prior to her rework, she was a niche pocket pick that got destroyed by anyone who bought boots since while her Q did 80% of her AP with the same base (Currently does 45%, though rework had nerfed it down to 35%) it had a delay between .25s and .6ish second. It was unreliable and if anyone got boots, it was dodged easy, though most will complain anyways because it was like the old Nidalee spear, though a hundred times less reliable, BUT if you hit with that poison, it by itself would half life anything really and she still had the same E that she does now, so she had an 80% on her Q, 55% on her E, and her W had more base damage and did 5% AP per tick more back then. Her old passive was useless and her new one is now amazing. Honestly though, people just remember when she was reworked, the Cass that was brought had almost no damage and her passive was just playing Farmville by W'ing at minions then E'ing them for last hits to stack it. After she had her Q reliability fixed and it's AP ratio buffed, her E given a static ratio rather than 30%-60% based on ability level, plus her passive reworked again to be incredible and reward her for interacting with her enemies, she's been amazing. One of my friends mained Cass pre-rework and post and prefers the new one, but most would rather complain and demand the old 80% ratio so they can spam poisons from a distance and never have to worry about pressing W or E, just Q'ing and walking away. >>

Morde is considered a failure just because of how toxic his kit is. It's got no CC, so playing solo with him is just... it's horrible since he has no mobility either. He's slower than hell and needs a Trinity or a Luden's PLUS a Rylai's to keep up on his target or else he's just Q'ing a minion twice then flashing over to AA+E+R for the kill on a squishy, which is as toxic as it gets. There's nothing satisfying about the new Morde other than pressing Q and then flashing at a squishy for a one shot. That's seriously it. He's got nothing rewarding in his kit for any kind of plays other than Flashing and landing the 3rd Q. Seriously. His kit sucks.

Karma was considered a wonderful buff and also a failure. Why? Well, she's perfect kit-wise, but we lost the fans. Literally. We lost the fans. x.x We all miss the old Karma's fans and even though we love the new kit, we can't get over the loss of the fans. QQ

Evelynn was considered a success at first, but as time has gone by, I'm pretty sure we can all agree we'd rather have the old 5 sunfire and Evelynn than the current one that's been nerfed every damn season since late season 2.

I'd mention Trundle and Sej, but those were mostly visuals and we'd all agree they were successes.

Sion was a huuuuuuuge success.

Heimer and Xerath are debatable. Heimer was well off before and now he's even more well off, so I'd say a success. Xerath before was a bit overly immobile and his passive gave him armor for AP, which was near worthless unless you were against a Talon, but even then you weren't doing so hot. So, I'd say a success.

Darius, Garen, and Skarner are all doing incredibly well and just need number tweaks rather than a whole new kit (Cough, Morde, cough.) so I'd say they're all very, very successful.

Miss Fortune had the world's worst rework to have ever been done. She was already at a low pick rate, but after they 'reworked' her, she became garbage tier and stayed at garbage tier until they finally added an AD ratio to her R. It took a year, but we're all pretty happy it finally happened again, though AP Miss Fortune mains will stay hate their life and wish for the old MF since there's still no AP ratio on the W. AP MF Mid will be missed. RIP SivHD AP MF.

Katarina had a good rework. No one really complained about it, though we still get the backlash of people complaining that she's too easy and OP as heck, etc. etc., but I'd say compared to the old more AD looking kit, she's doing pretty well.

Ashe's rework was obviously a success... so much so that everyone wants the other ADC's to have her crit mechanics....

Jax never had an actual rework, but the loss of dodge was sort of a rework in itself... So, a success since he's still played?

Ryze has been reworked twice, so... I mean... Obviously one of the reworks was a failure, but I wouldn't say the new Ryze is all that great. He does really well, but eh.

Viktor's rework was so good, most have called him the Sleeper OP and have been waiting for huge nerfs. We haven't seen the nerfs, so a success so good that Riot hasn't acknowledged it yet?

Sona sorta got reworked and considering she's been nerfed to hell and back and hasn't seen much play at all, not even when her ultimate skin was released, I wouldn't say it was a success...

So... Well... The big reworks like Xerath, Heimer, Sion, Ashe, and Viktor, I'd say were successful. Their smaller ones though were mostly good, with a few exceptions like Morde who really wasn't reworked, he just had his E nerfed, W gained a heal, and his Q does a ton of damage while his entire problem, not being able to stick to a target or even get near it, wasn't fixed on purpose.

Dalthine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E07ldIdB,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-10-23T12:24:06.013+0000)

[Cass's] old passive was useless...

I mainly wanted to speak out about this. Her old passive was amazing, because once you had a tiny amount of mp/5 and fully stacked it, you basically never ran out of mana until you went in. I had a setup so that I could use q literally as soon as it was off cooldown from Lv.1 and not run out of mana until the first 10 minutes had passed. It also fit more into her original theme because it was more of a cadence and a dance until you went in, casting constantly to keep it stacked.

And theming is one of the reasons Cass rework was considered a failure. They completely threw out her character, in addition to shifting her play style focus.

Theming is also why many people consider the Karma rework a failure. Originally, all of her abilities gained a dual nature from being empowered by her ult. Support spells got damage, and damage spells got utility. Now much of that duality feels lost. There was also the "living on the edge" aspect of her passive, where she was strongest near death.

The other reworks people consider a failure as a whole are Sona and Morde, which you covered at least decently well. I would consider those two reworks on the same level as Heimer or Ashe though. They were not minor changes.

But people tend to fear reworks in general because people who like a champ do so for what they currently are. Nobody wants something they like to suddenly and massively change. There's the general dread of ruination that comes from reworks like the ones mentioned here, but you can see the general dread for it in the original post here. It's unknown what exactly will happen, but it's that very lack of knowledge that scares people.

For me, I'm probably more wary than most considering two of the failure reworks are champions that were some of my favorites before.

ElBoob2 votes

Also Trundle. His kit suffered very little chance, but his character is completely different.

Kaeblen1 votes

I was very sad about the lore change on trundle, as well.

Zair Umbras1 votes

Ehhhh. Cass's passive wasn't all too useful since you usually grabbed up a tear early since she had, and still does, have tons of base damages plus Arch Angel's has always been a top tier item, more-so now. You'd then get an Athene's and her passive was... well... Worthless. You were able to Q for days to half life the entire enemy team without even having to touch your W or E unless you were doing Dragon or Baron, which meant she not only could kill with her fishing ability, but she also could take objectives with her E and W. W does a surprisingly large amount of damage, pre-nerf and post-nerf, but getting things to sit in it is a bit difficult. Objectives like to stand in things, so she was able to 1v1 things like Dragon and Baron pre-rework with a WotA or with the old AP jungle item. You also never ran out of mana during the entire thing either since you had huuuuuuuge mana regen and her passive made it impossible to use enough mana to get low. It was just ridiculously stupid.

As for her theme, I mean, she was a 'Poison Mage', but her CD's would've had to been through the roof to compensate for such a kit and since most people spammed E anyways, so the guy doing it had to choose between elongating her CD's and making her boring, slow paced like Anivia or keep Brackhar's idea where she's a fast, sustained damage mage. Of course he'd choose the original creator's design over what people had titled her themselves. Brackhar always wanted her to be the type to land a spell and quickly go in for the kill, destroying her targets rather than just fishing with the Q from range. I'd guess since Brackhar had left May of 2014, he kept it to Brackhar's wants as a respect thing. I know I'd do it. Even on Brackhar's farewell to the community, he told a player to bind Cass's E to Mouse 4 to make it easier, so we all know what he wanted out of Cass. lol.

Kaeblen1 votes

very complete review. +1 for that, even though you got a few cass fans mad at you.

It looks like I actually remember more of those than I thought I did. A lot of them either seemed small at the time (Ashe), or fell under champions I don't really use (Cass).

Zair Umbras1 votes

I expected to make the old Cass fans mad. I mean, most of them enjoyed Cass for her poisons when in reality, Brackhar didn't want to make a poison mage, he wanted to make a single target sustained damage mage, which is why he made her Q not-so-reliable and her E range relatively short. He actually had mentioned when making Cass that he wanted to make the opposite of Anivia. Instead of slow and bursty, he wanted faaaaaast and sustained, hence the short CD's and CD reduc on the E as well as the old passive rewarding Cass for going hard onto an enemy with lower mana cost.

Thank you regardless though. I tried my best to mention all of them. lol.

Blade of Justic1 votes

{quoted}

To be honest, I don't know of many long-shot misses Riot has made with these reworks. Everyone brings upCassiopeia Mordekaiser , but I don't know of any others that were really devastating. I know Twitch hurt some folks, but that was before my time here. Would you mind filling me in?

Sion had an identity crisis before where he was being built AP Burst or AD Crit and Riot said that they wanted to fix that with a rework. But instead of choosing one identity or another, they just decided to make him a CC Tank.

Many people regard this as one of the greatest reworks Riot has done.

Many people would also have never played Sion pre-rework and, thus, don't really have grounds to judge the change so much as what we got from it.

To those who really liked playing AD Crit Sion pre-rework, the rework completely missed who he was previously.

Kaeblen1 votes

I played Sion pre-rework. I didn't main him but I did play him. I didn't like it a lot. I think the big reasons why people (myself included) love the Sion rework are as follows:

  1. They started with Lore, and build from the ground up. simply changing a kit, tweaking this of tweaking that can backfire. but because they started with the question "Who is Sion Meant to be, at the heart and soul of his original concept?" everything was able to eventually fit into place.
  2. The kit they gave him both resembled his previous kit (~40% I'd say) AND was functional in its own right.
Blade of Justic1 votes

{quoted}

I played Sion pre-rework. I didn't main him but I did play him. I didn't like it a lot. I think the big reasons why people (myself included) love the Sion rework are as follows:

  1. They started with Lore, and build from the ground up. simply changing a kit, tweaking this of tweaking that can backfire. but because they started with the question "Who is Sion Meant to be, at the heart and soul of his original concept?" everything was able to eventually fit into place.
  2. The kit they gave him both resembled his previous kit (~40% I'd say) AND was functional in its own right.

Yeah, they only kept the shield and health stacking. If I was being generous, I'd say they kept 20% of his kit. And I'm fairly certain that Sion wasn't defined by his exploding shield.

Kaeblen1 votes

The new passive is also based on his old ult (toned that down a bit, hehe). They gave him A stun, but not the one he had before. Considering new abilities that are similar but not matching raises the percentage a bit, but I'm guessing nobody was going to argue by saying his play style is the same as before.

Wind Whistler1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blade of Justic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E07ldIdB,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-10-22T22:32:02.499+0000)

"We feel that, much like with Sion, Shen has a weak identity. Instead of him being either a Tank or a ninja, like Sion, we'll make him neither. He is now a marksman." - Rito 2016

Sion wasn't a tank though, I'd say he was more of a fighter.

Blade of Justic1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wind Whistler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E07ldIdB,comment-id=00060002,timestamp=2015-10-23T21:15:11.959+0000)

Sion wasn't a tank though, I'd say he was more of a fighter.

I wasn't saying that Sion was like a tank or a ninja, I was saying "Like Sion, We'll make him neither of his two identities." He was a Melee ADC or an AP Burst Mage.

Instead of going with Melee ADC or Crit Fighter, they went with CC tank.

Wind Whistler1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blade of Justic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E07ldIdB,comment-id=000600020000,timestamp=2015-10-23T21:25:27.656+0000)

I wasn't saying that Sion was like a tank or a ninja, I was saying "Like Sion, We'll make him neither of his two identities." He was a Melee ADC or an AP Burst Mage.

Instead of going with Melee ADC or Crit Fighter, they went with CC tank.

Oh. Yeah, that's exactly what they did in that case, lol. Wish more people would realize that. New Sion is fun to play, but he's nothing like Old Sion. That's why I'm super worried about champions like Poppy, Urgot, Taric, and Yorick, who were all said to be given Sion level reworks in the near future. Thanks for explaining though.

Ñapoleoni4 votes

It would be cool if Shen had more ninja abilities like these ones shown below.

https://streamable.com/l19u

https://streamable.com/3ddp

Melledoneus2 votes

This is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. Where is the creator of this? I'm going to bake him some cookies or something.

Remlap12232 votes

I just got a stage five boner from that.

Pelkrock1 votes

I have to say that is a pretty cool idea... Kinda Zedish too lol.

Okain1 votes

As a man who loves to juke I approve of this kit change..Rito pls.

Jixx2 votes

They are going to try to stick to his theme and keep everything but try to change the Q and W a bit, make it a little more interesting. Also they're gonna give him a medium visual rework, alistar level. So he might come out looking like his splash art.

Gunslinger7442 votes

GET YOUR FILTHY HANDS OFF MY MAIN CERTAINLYTRASH Shen item 3070

ChaosThief2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cynical Rain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E07ldIdB,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-22T17:11:43.277+0000)

Also, if Vorpal Blade or Ki Strike have an 'every 3rd attack' stipulation added...I swear I will throw tomatoes at your office.

http://i.imgur.com/7o2akT4.gif

Hypochondria91 votes

His ult is the most problematic part of his kit, they will change it I bet.

Cynical Rain5 votes

They better fucking not.

IcyPepper6 votes

His ult is also arguably the most iconic part of his kit and fantasy (hero ninja guardian!). In second place is his E, which is pretty damn iconic as well.

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