How is Zed healthy?

Jingerbeardman·Aug 14, 2014·4 votes·2,242 views

I am crazy confused at the buffs that Zed received this patch. It is as if they want the exact same lineup as last worlds again. Zed still farms way to easy, escapes to easily, and is all around way to safe for an assassin. He might be fun to watch but is that really worth buffing him?

Edit: 8/16/14 So now that I have faced zed a few times since his buff I can honestly say he is the farthest from balanced and healthy. why do the balance team think that high skill cap is enough reasoning to over power champs. Someone had said in one of the posts below that zeds build is expensive which is one the reasons he is balanced... total cost for a powerful core set of items for zed, boots of mobility 800, yomuus ghostblade 2700, blade of the ruined king 3200, last whisper 2300, total cost 7000. Top that off with easy and safe farming.

A red from the balance team needs to come in here and explain how zed is healthy...

27 Comments

EapenatorAug 14, 20144 votes

I think the reason why zed is allowed to have so much power is because of the way his death mark currently works. Zed is an extremely well designed champion and offers counter play and also makes you feel like you got outplayed by him when he kills you. (This is not considering post nerf zed, who's assassination combo was over tuned)

I would take Zed any day over the instagibbing of Rengar, ild Kha'zix, and Yasuo, all who have mechanics which make you feel help less. (stealth, insta burst for rengar and old kha) and wind wall, which can block your whole spell combo (however, I will agree that good Yasuo make great use of his dash to maximize his effectiveness). When Zed ulti's you now, you can fight back through cc and killing him, (through which he can out play by use of shadows, at the right time), or through surviving (exhaust, zhonyas, barrier). The player and zed are both given a window of opportunity, and usually the most skilled player won the match up (again not considering before nerfs, where you would die even though the zed misplayed)

Also, his lack of reliance on insta bursting to kill opponents make him not scale so well into the late game, where people have the tools to deal with him.

Earl EulrichAug 14, 20142 votes

The problem however is...he doesn´t need his ultimate to kill anyone lategame currently (as he is a sort of melee-carry by then), while early on you cannot itemize against it. With the Buffs to him ghosting after his ult he´ll just melee down his target before the ult even gets a chance to procc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwMjTw5i27s

is quite a good example for Zed killing Kog without even popping his deathmark within ~1sec from fullhealth (~min 48)...and overall both Zed games from Dade (game 4 this series he played Zed aswell) just show you that not even the 2nd best team in Korea can stop the Champion from doing what he does if the Zed-player and his team know how to utilize him...and bear in mind those games are pre the utility-buff.

TauNoob1Aug 14, 20142 votes

SO if an assassin gets to jump on the squishy adc then they should not be able to kill them? Your evidence also wasn't that great because Kog lost 50% of his health from an Explosive Cask and Body Slam from Gragas. Zed also gets hard countered by Hourglass, one of the most common apc items, and QSS.

EapenatorAug 14, 20142 votes

There are better examples than that one, namely because

a) Syndra got caught forcing lulu to blow her ultimate, which would have been great in providing survivability to kog maw

b) If you look closely, you will see that zed was unable to actually complete a full assassinatioan (he R's in to gap close, botrk'ed, and e) and this only resulted in about 1/5 of kogmaw's HP being depleted, before he had to Teleport back to his R shadow to avoid the thresh hook (king reflexes)

c) You should give more credit to zed's team, Full AP gragas, was able to land and ulti and a body slam, as well as tristana getting some autos in (you can see her in the assists as the kill shows up). In the end, zed was able to finish of the kill with this passive auto attack proc/q (I can't really see it clearly).

Can you pull up another nice nice zed kill from youtube (im at work T.T), because really, I agree that the zed buffs were kinda unnecessary due to exhausts nerfs, and he was in a really balanced niche place.

Earl EulrichAug 14, 20141 votes

There sure is a lot of credit to give to his team...but that´s just what I said - if the team as a whole knows hoe to play the Champion there´s not much stopping him. It has been seen in S3 when good teams just enabled Zed to Snowball out of control by backing up his splitpushing...he didn´t even need kills for that, he just farmed ahead in gold and xp and nobody could stop him midgame. It´s why he was 100%pick&ban S3 worlds - and it´s most likely the reason he will be close to that in S4 again after the changes. Especially for the absolute top-teams that don´t even need him snowballing to be able to create teamfights in which Zed can be a melee-carry-assassin.

So don´t focus on min 48. too much...just watch both games and bear in mind that it´s the 2 best teams in Korea and most likely the world currently - and they don´t find a way to shut down Zed effectively at all.

Earl EulrichAug 14, 20142 votes

for another example of Zeds abilities though...http://www.twitch.tv/lplen/c/4855634 min 23 is probably my favourite Zed-outplay this season so far. Though I just love Zz1tai, that guy is crazy.

And though it´s not near lategame...you clearly can see how he uses the ult mainly for utility+mobility and not for the dmg, as his autoattacks and other skills are capable of doing enough dmg on their own.

EapenatorAug 14, 20141 votes

That was a sick play.

Honestly, I don't see the buffs doing anything much other than providing some compensation for the Botrk's slow nerf without actually increasing zed's speed. I think he will stay the same in pick rate and play rate.

If he does increase at this point, its probably due to the exhaust nerfs if anything, and there is nothing we can do about that.

You have to agree though, it takes serious skills to play zed 'properly'. Anyone can buy the champion, click r and pull of the combo, but it takes serious skill to keep track of your shadows and use it to clean up fights in many of the plays we see.

Earl EulrichAug 14, 20141 votes

Sure it takes some skill to make him work out to max potential, niot just from the Zed player (i don´t think he´s that hard if you´re used to playing Ori...meaning you can watch your champ and the shadows simultaneous)...but quite a lot from his team - creating opportunities to strike in clashes and opportunities to splitpush in the game.

Still, I think you underestimate the ghost-effect. It´s goddamn strong if you can just keep autoattacking a carry while moving through his support that tries to save him (and then swap back to your shadow once the target is down), it can easily make a difference of 1-2aa which are depending on the situation (add to deathmark or not) 400-1,xk dmg.

TheKaymonAug 14, 20141 votes

Don't forget Talon. He may not be the strongest champion right now, but he still has the potential 100 to 0 someone in about 1 second, with a silence and stealth on top of it. In comparison, Zed has a lot of windup on his Ult and you can often dodge his skills, or use hourglass or QSS.

EapenatorAug 14, 20142 votes

Talon is actually really strong in solo queue. The only reason he isn't pick up in LCS is lack of mobility. Thats also the reason why riot allows such a contradictory game play pattern to exist on the champion, even though the nerfed similar patters in leblanc.

TheKaymonAug 14, 20141 votes

I agree, but I wasn't too concerned with discussing his power level. I was just trying to point out what an unhealthy assassin looks like. Old LeBlanc is another good example, with a silence, huge burst and high mobility.

JingerbeardmanAug 15, 20141 votes

not as unhealthy as you think actually. He is extremely powerful but it takes time for him to pick up steam, the way all assassins should be. He can easily be denied farm early on when he needs it most to gain momentum. His kits combo to 100-0 actually does leave him in a rather vulnerable position even with the stealth which is easy to get around now. He has to track his mana usage because once he is out there is little he can do. His skill to get into assassin positioning can only be used on enemy units which is huge when it comes to counterplay. Talons damage boost is only effective under certain conditions and for certain durations as well.

Zed on the other hand is not gated by mana, freely ports to where he places or leaves his shadows, becomes untargetable when he activates his ult which leaves a shadow he can jump to no matter how far he is from it, can easily farm thanks to not having a mana gate, AND gets free AD on top of it all which boosts all of his abilities. Oh and I almost forgot that he can shorten the cooldown on his w as well.

TheKaymonAug 15, 20141 votes

I think the things you mention have more to do with overall strength than how healthy the gameplay is. Personally I don't think assassins should be like Talon, where you either deny them hard early or they 100-0 your carry every fight. I think they should be like Zed, where he may be slippery and mobile, but if he ults your carry you see it coming and can shield them or exhaust/cc him when he pops up. It's not that I think Talon is stronger than Zed, I just think he is much less fun to play against.

Earl EulrichAug 14, 20143 votes

Totally agree, his basestats are ridiculous for an Assassin..he really feels like a bruiser even if you build him very offensive - making him far to save for what he can do.

IAmNeverViableAug 14, 20142 votes

I don't play zed but his kit is pretty healthy.zed is a snowball/roamer to play effectively. He need kills to make impact and if he falls behind he's useless in teamfight. His pre-6 is not really that strong. He really has no way to stick to target on melee range expect for his ultimate. His shadow has a long cd early game. Making it very easy to kill him once he used it. His core item, botrk got nerfed. He can be easily be counter pick like liss,kayle, fizz and itemization against him is zhyoza or ga. In teamfight, zed needs to kill squishy but if falls in early game like i mention before he's useless. With good support like janna, alistar, lulu and thresh. Getting to the adc or mid will be hard. Zed relies on pick up or good engage.

Earl EulrichAug 14, 20141 votes

His pre 6 is one of the strongest in the game, you can kill almost any champ between lvl 2 and 3 by just stepping into them (yea, even someone like Lee).

IAmNeverViableAug 14, 20141 votes

His damage is strong but in order to pull the damage, he need to used the shadow to chuck some signifaciant health. Most zed players would used it to wave clear or poke/trade. Using his shadow will make him easier to atk or gank him. Remember zed need kills to make impact in game. If zed can't kill you or roam to get kills, he'll become useless since his item path is expensive. An example would be Anivia vs zed. Anivia can stall zed in lane and with her sustain with roa or ethier. She will win most trade. If zed ult anivia, she has that passive to get back up. Overall zed is a really a skilled based champ with alot of counterpicks and itemization. He can be useful against certain comp like protect the adc/mid with low mobility. He can killed them during early to mid game and get fed to the point they can't their zhyoza/ga.

JingerbeardmanAug 15, 20141 votes

his item path is less expensive than all of the other AD assassins.

majulitoAug 14, 2014

zed farms easily and kills easily. He has his e,w,r to stick to people. His shadow may be on a long cd early but because of his shadow he physically doesn't have to be as far up, and can farm with w-e-q from a safe distance.

Bork's active was nerfed but the passive was buffed and usually zed will get a few autos in.

I would consider fizz/liss more of skill matchups as opposed to hard counters. As for kayle shes a strong pick against everyone because not being able to die is strong especially when it has no cost. Zhonya is the best counter to zed whereas ga is merely ok because of the cd and when you revieve his cds will probably be up along with his passive doing bonus damage to you.

The idea that if he does bad early he will not have much of an impact isn't unique to any champion. However he is a good split pusher and is hard to duel do to his slipperyness and all in potential.

As for supports being able to save someone I doubt as well. Once zed uses ult its just a quick e,q,bork,ignite. If the target doesn't die they probably aren't living with much and are effectively removed from the fight.

The All TomatoAug 14, 20141 votes

I think that, despite their rivalry, Surgeon Shen follows his medical oaths and helps those in need.

Remlap1223Aug 14, 20141 votes

Because Zed has an insanely high skill cap and isn't a face roll like other assassins tend to be (I'm looking at you Katarina Khazix Rengar ). You can actually counterplay Zed, and I've never said to myself after a Zed killed me, "well that was bullcrap". I instead say "damn, that guy's good" or "that was so clutch." Zed is very good yes, but out of all the assassins in the game, I'd without question say he's the most balanced.

Jinxed AmuletAug 14, 20141 votes

I agree that he does have a higher skill cap, but his laning pre-six is pretty terrifying for most mids. I'm not sure why he was buffed - I thought he was pretty balanced before. And with the exhaust nerfs...he just keeps on getting stronger.

Remlap1223Aug 14, 20141 votes

Maybe one day I'll join you guys saying that Zed needs to be toned down, but now's not the time where I'll say that. I don't think the time is going to come anytime soon, simply because Zed is the most difficult champion to master in the game, at least in my opinion. First time I played Zed I had a Karthus kick my butt. That's saying something.

Jinxed AmuletAug 14, 20141 votes

Hmm very true. I actually played Zed when he was free, did so bad on him I never played him again. But I have faced a many good Zeds in ranked and I played squishy mages such as Ziggs/Lux and got destroyed (even when I build Zhonyas/rushed armor). But I'll try to pick him up and play him again and see if I think he is still too strong. I think you are right about him having a high skill-up, I suppose he is balanced.

JingerbeardmanAug 14, 20141 votes

I do admit that he has more counterplay to his kit, without a doubt. However there are many parts about him that are quite unhealthy, his early power which always makes me say "well that is bullcrap", his OUTRAGEOUS maneuverability... being able to switch with your ults shadow no matter how far you are from it is WRONG, and incredible range by using a shadow and Q. He farms far to easily when pushed and pushing making no real middle ground to deny him gold in lane. On top of it all he gets AD for free... he barely has to build any compared to other assassins in order to run you into the ground.

A bit of simple tuning to weaken his ability to farm and limit the range he can swap with his ults shadow and he would be fair. Once that is done then I will say he is healthy and balanced. skill cap is not an excuse to allow an overloaded kit.