Why don't we give Talon's E the ability to jump to friendlies, like Kat?

CreationFlaw·May 19, 2015·6 votes·1,640 views

I mean, everybody is crying for a different E or they want more escape, but then they're adding weird mechanics that aren't needed. Just rename the skill from cutthroat to something else, cause it doesn't even do damage nor silence them, so it's pointless to be named that, and then add the ability to jump to wards, teammates, and minions.

Or is that too OP and only Katarina should have it because she's totally riskier then talon. kthx

53 Comments

MCBiggah99May 19, 20154 votes

Because he's already strong? I believe Talon has a higher win rate than Katarina, lol. Instead of buffing strong champions, how about we buff weak ones.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Because he's already strong? I believe Talon has a higher win rate than Katarina, lol. Instead of buffing strong champions, how about we buff weak ones.

People say this a lot. But katarina has like 26% playrate in all games, so it's a huge difference in reality. Just like with Kayle, Syndra, and the other low playrate champions. But yeah, I'd say he's decently strong. But there's so many things that completely counter his playstyle. Katarina one she shunpos in, she's probably going to get a kill, that much is obvious, so she automatically gets her teleport refunded and that gives 15% reduction in all damage. Zed can teleport back to his R then his W if he did an W in R. One second really doesn't change that much in standard bronze-gold, which is like 75-80% of the playerbase. Talon has his damage, but so do they. (Not to mention he has mana ;-;) I'm not saying he's weak by any means, it's just the other assassins have more.

edit: Okay, so talon's winrate is all over the place, between 47% and 53% constantly. He also has around 4.5ish% playrate, which isn't horrid like some, but it's not a lot. Katarina has a 23ish% playrate and her winrate is more consistent AND higher.

MCBiggah99May 19, 20156 votes

{quoted}

People say this a lot. But katarina has like 26% playrate in all games, so it's a huge difference in reality. Just like with Kayle, Syndra, and the other low playrate champions. But yeah, I'd say he's decently strong. But there's so many things that completely counter his playstyle. Katarina one she shunpos in, she's probably going to get a kill, that much is obvious, so she automatically gets her teleport refunded and that gives 15% reduction in all damage. Zed can teleport back to his R then his W if he did an W in R. One second really doesn't change that much in standard bronze-gold, which is like 75-80% of the playerbase. Talon has his damage, but so do they. (Not to mention he has mana ;-;) I'm not saying he's weak by any means, it's just the other assassins have more.

I actually disagree, I'll actually make a statement and say that Talon with one item (brutalizer) has more and quicker burst than Zed and Katarina, probably Syndra too because she has to chunk you down first. His power is in pure damage, he might not have resets but boy does he have the AoE nuke to compensate. It also can't be countered as easily as Katarina and makes him go invisible. He just has a lot more burst and less sustained damage unlike the other two champions.

Talon is strong in his own way, ranging from range differences, CC, invisibility, possibly the strongest roamer of the three, etc.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I actually disagree, I'll actually make a statement and say that Talon with one item (brutalizer) has more and quicker burst than Zed and Katarina, probably Syndra too because she has to chunk you down first. His power is in pure damage, he might not have resets but boy does he have the AoE nuke to compensate. It also can't be countered as easily as Katarina and makes him go invisible. He just has a lot more burst and less sustained damage unlike the other two champions.

Talon is strong in his own way, ranging from range differences, CC, invisibility, possibly the strongest roamer of the three, etc.

And to trade for that, he has higher cooldowns, mana based, and if he misses his W(Which has happened to me because of how small the cone is if you're right there, he completely has no passive to proc damage off of. Whereas Zed and katarina have guaranteed passive usage.

MCBiggah99May 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And to trade for that, he has higher cooldowns, mana based, and if he misses his W(Which has happened to me because of how small the cone is if you're right there, he completely has no passive to proc damage off of. Whereas Zed and katarina have guaranteed passive usage.

Yeah, so he has his upsides and his downsides compared to the other two. I don't see the problem here. If you're hinting towards Katarina being too strong, fine, they should nerf Katarina, but Talon's in a good spot.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, so he has his upsides and his downsides compared to the other two. I don't see the problem here. If you're hinting towards Katarina being too strong, fine, they should nerf Katarina, but Talon's in a good spot.

I'm saying AP assassins are too strong, because of the itemization, whereas AD assassins have a strict route they can go, same with ADC's.

MCBiggah99May 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm saying AP assassins are too strong, because of the itemization, whereas AD assassins have a strict route they can go, same with ADC's.

The thread itself was hinting towards Talon not having an ability that another champion does have, and how Talon should get that ability too. Oh well.

You guys got your hexdrinkers and your merc treads too if you really need em, I don't think it's too strict compared to an AP assassin's build path. Common counter items we use are Zhonya and Abyssal, and we have our standard items in Luden's, Rabadon's, Void Staff, Sorc boots, etc. Common counter items you guys have are merc scimmy and hexdrinker, you guys have your ravenous hydras, borks, black cleavers or youmuus, mobi boots or merc treads, etc.

I'd say the builds are just as varied for both groups.

Furthermore, if we move onto the ADC territory, we'll find something new entirely. Mainly that ADCs tend to stick to meta builds. Why build triforce Lucian if Sneaky builds inf edge first, amirite? Or why even get hexdrinker if that only helps me when the leblonk comes roaming bot? Why go black cleaver bot? You have the options as an ADC, you just don't use them.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The thread itself was hinting towards Talon not having an ability that another champion does have, and how Talon should get that ability too. Oh well.

You guys got your hexdrinkers and your merc treads too if you really need em, I don't think it's too strict compared to an AP assassin's build path. Common counter items we use are Zhonya and Abyssal, and we have our standard items in Luden's, Rabadon's, Void Staff, Sorc boots, etc. Common counter items you guys have are merc scimmy and hexdrinker, you guys have your ravenous hydras, borks, black cleavers or youmuus, mobi boots or merc treads, etc.

I'd say the builds are just as varied for both groups.

Furthermore, if we move onto the ADC territory, we'll find something new entirely. Mainly that ADCs tend to stick to meta builds. Why build triforce Lucian if Sneaky builds inf edge first, amirite? Or why even get hexdrinker if that only helps me when the leblonk comes roaming bot? Why go black cleaver bot? You have the options as an ADC, you just don't use them.

Completely agree with what you're saying about the META builds for botlane. But it's more although those do give shields or slight MR, Zhonyas gives max AP (120), and an invulnerability active on a short cooldown. I mean, the AD items are obviously limited because we get the auto attack smack in, whereas AP's don't get that. So i suppose that's why it's so balanced, but I guess it's how guaranteed safe ap carry is in a teamfight. I mean, if they're alone, they are screwed if you're talon or somebody else. Unless it's veigar, because ult Q really hurts ;-;

Ironically I kind of turned this into a Zhonyas QQ thread, sorry!

DreadlocksMay 19, 20154 votes

As a talon main, i think the ward hoping would be a bit much, but i could definitely go for the ally jumps.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As a talon main, i think the ward hoping would be a bit much, but i could definitely go for the ally jumps.

Yeah, I suppose the easy wall hopping would be kinda op. Iunno, he'd still have to buy wards though, hue. And he's mana based so he'd lose a lot compared to Katarina. But yeah, I play talon a lot, 38k points in champion mastery, and I agree his damage is fine, but he gets hit too much in survivability for that

DreadlocksMay 19, 20151 votes

yeah thats kind of the trade off though, Lots of burst, less survivability. Unfortunately Leblanc and Katarina still exist with their kits the way they are.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

yeah thats kind of the trade off though, Lots of burst, less survivability. Unfortunately Leblanc and Katarina still exist with their kits the way they are.

I suppose so, but don't forget AP assassins eventually will have more damage simply because they have more items, but they also will have more survivability just because of Zhonyas. (Which is super OP, in my opinion, 120 AP, and 50 armor with that passive on a lower cooldown then most ults, nty)

IcyPepperMay 19, 20154 votes

and while we're at it, can Braum ward hop as well? If Lee can guard wards, then Braum should be able to defend his wards as well.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

and while we're at it, can ward hop as well? If Lee can guard wards, then Braum should be able to defend his wards as well.

I'd be okay with that, I mean, anything to see braum played.

Dr PoroMay 19, 20151 votes

Would be awesome! Braum needs some love.

Poptart EvelynnMay 19, 20153 votes

One is slicing someones throat and the other is teleporting behind them.

Think about it.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kat for Elo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bzlotepp,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-05-19T21:34:06.372+0000)

One is slicing someones throat and the other is teleporting behind them.

Think about it.

Ironically, Katarina's Shunpo does damage while Talon's doesn't. (It doesn't even silence anymore which was the entire point of the name (╯° °）╯︵ ┻━┻) Don't worry about clarity.

GodhriMay 19, 20152 votes

pretty sure that's because katarina is supposed to be landing on top of them but due to collision, she lands behind them instead.

jDVL20eCYsMay 19, 20152 votes

acutlly talons e dose around 500 late game and its scales really well.

Sona PingMay 19, 20152 votes

{quoted} Why don't we give Talon's E the ability to jump to friendlies, like Kat?

I mean, everybody is crying for a different E or they want more escape, but then they're adding weird mechanics that aren't needed. Just rename the skill from cutthroat to something else, cause it doesn't even do damage nor silence them, so it's pointless to be named that, and then add the ability to jump to wards, teammates, and minions.

Or is that too OP and only Katarina should have it because she's totally riskier then talon. kthx

Sounds reasonable. And after that, we make Katarina go invisible in her ultimate. It's only fair.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bzlotepp,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-05-19T21:56:28.031+0000)

Sounds reasonable. And after that, we make Katarina go invisible in her ultimate. It's only fair.

If we go for that, we have to rework Talon's passive so that whenever an enemy is bleeding, his damage is amplified by 50%, amirite? Then we'll give Katarina the ability to reset her shunpo on all champions and minions affected by her Q.

This is a joke, for all the people that for some reason don't have the ability to detect sarcasm in both parties.

JustMyBassCannonMay 19, 20152 votes

The last thing that Talon needs is safety. After all, he lives on the razor's edge.

Quite seriously though, Katarina is riskier, because Talon's burst takes less than a second to rotate.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The last thing that Talon needs is safety. After all, he lives on the razor's edge.

Quite seriously though, Katarina is riskier, because Talon's burst takes less than a second to rotate.

I mean, Katarina's is also impossible to miss, as it's all around target aoe, instead of a general direction. And as I said before, who doesn't build zhonyas on Katarina? It's 2.5 seconds of not taking damage, and lowering cooldowns, and forcing others to attack or die to other people.

MCBiggah99May 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I mean, Katarina's is also impossible to miss, as it's all around target aoe, instead of a general direction. And as I said before, who doesn't build zhonyas on Katarina? It's 2.5 seconds of not taking damage, and lowering cooldowns, and forcing others to attack or die to other people.

Well, then build GA and get some extra time yourself too :S

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well, then build GA and get some extra time yourself too :S

Probably because GA is solely a defensive item, and it doesn't freeze my health, it gives me 1/3 of my health back on a caster assassin, so it's not like I can superbly lifesteal that up.

JustMyBassCannonMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I mean, Katarina's is also impossible to miss, as it's all around target aoe, instead of a general direction.

The only general direction part of Talon's damage is his W. His Q can't miss, and his R is far faster than Katarina's R. And, actually, Talon's W travels fast enough that you almost can't miss unless you're trying to catch someone at the very edge of the cone.

And as I said before, who doesn't build zhonyas on Katarina? It's 2.5 seconds of not taking damage, and lowering cooldowns, and forcing others to attack or die to other people.

Zhonya's doesn't allow her ultimate to channel. Actually, if Talon had access to Zhonya's, he would be more ridiculous than Katarina. Talon is probably the biggest reason we don't have an AD version of Zhonya's...aside from the fact that most AD champions wouldn't use Zhonya's well.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The only general direction part of Talon's damage is his W. His Q can't miss, and his R is far faster than Katarina's R. And, actually, Talon's W travels fast enough that you almost can't miss unless you're trying to catch someone at the very edge of the cone.

Zhonya's doesn't allow her ultimate to channel. Actually, if Talon had access to Zhonya's, he would be more ridiculous than Katarina. Talon is probably the biggest reason we don't have an AD version of Zhonya's...aside from the fact that most AD champions wouldn't use Zhonya's well.

It's not like her ultimate is a five second channel though, it's 2 seconds flat, which is a shorter duration then zhonyas active itself.. It's not like you're going to just use your entire combo after diving on a squish in a teamfight, you're going to hopefully attempt to hit them with both parts of the ult while escaping, but it never works that way because a single 100 gold purchase nulls him so hard sometimes. Also, Katarina's ult has WAY more total damage, by a fucking skyrocket difference, so she can channel .8 seconds and only hit four daggers and do the same damage as a talon ult. Also, her ultimate applies Grievous wounds, so it's not like they can lifesteal through that duration very much, all they can do is run or cc her, but if you're an assassin, whatcha going to do :/ Zhonyas, but wait, that's AP, hue

JustMyBassCannonMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's not like her ultimate is a five second channel though, it's 2 seconds flat, which is a shorter duration then zhonyas active itself.

Actually, it is 2.5 seconds exactly. 2.5 seconds to deal about 2/3 of Katarina's damage. Including the casting time and travel delay on her Q, Katarina takes about 3 seconds to pull her full rotation.

Talon takes less than a second to deal all of his damage.

It's not like you're going to just use your entire combo after diving on a squish in a teamfight, you're going to hopefully attempt to hit them with both parts of the ult while escaping, but it never works that way because a single 100 gold purchase nulls him so hard sometimes.

Unless you built him for DPS, you're going to jump, rotate and leave the fight for about 5 seconds, then Rake is back off cooldown and you return to help if your team still needs you.

If you did build him for DPS, then you're going to shred them, and save your ultimate for when someone gets out of range, double-tap R and chunk them.

Also, Katarina's ult has WAY more total damage, by a fucking skyrocket difference, so she can channel .8 seconds and only hit four daggers and do the same damage as a talon ult.

4 daggers is 1 full second, dealing 300 +100% AP +150% bonus AD, compared to Talon's 440 + 150% bonus AD. So, no, not quite. And, unlike Katarina's ultimate, Talon's ultimate doesn't have a target limit, is not cancelled by casting other spells, and is not interrupted by CC.

Also, her ultimate applies Grievous wounds, so it's not like they can lifesteal through that duration very much, all they can do is run or cc her, but if you're an assassin, whatcha going to do :/ Zhonyas, but wait, that's AP, hue

If you're an assassin, you're not going to be standing next to Kat. As an archetype, assassins are too mobile to stand next to each other unless their targets happen to be each other or very near each other.

And unless a team is very poorly composed, they're going to have CC. Which is much more devastating to Kat than Talon.

PhifeMay 19, 20151 votes

Just give his E the ability to silence again...

CreationFlawMay 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Just give his E the ability to silence again...

It's just too overpowered in the meta for his burst, :/. I mean, it pisses me off to no fucking end when APC can zhonyas in a teamfight and I'm completely fucked over because now I can't escape nor can I do damage cause my cooldowns went on him.

PhifeMay 19, 20151 votes

If his damage is the problem, you gotta nerf the damage not his utility.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If his damage is the problem, you gotta nerf the damage not his utility.

Pretty sure everyone agrees his damage is stellar and fine, thanks.

PhifeMay 19, 20151 votes

It's just too overpowered in the meta for his burst

http://www.solomid.net/guide/view/123469-talon-build-guide-apc-by-thegza This is my guide, i made it a little over a year ago and stopped caring about Talon as soon as he went FOTM and got nerfed to shit when they removed his Silence, I know what im talking about when i say, His silence wasn't the OP part of his kit.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

http://www.solomid.net/guide/view/123469-talon-build-guide-apc-by-thegza This is my guide, i made it a little over a year ago and stopped caring about Talon as soon as he went FOTM and got nerfed to shit when they removed his Silence, I know what im talking about when i say, His silence wasn't the OP part of his kit.

What was? " getting massive downvotes by the sheep" this part is true though, people just herd to things on the forums, it's frustrating at times. But I didn't find the silence to be OP either, but I don't really think it's required since so few have silences in the game. And none of those are bursters like Talon. (Cho'gath, Malzahar, Soraka, Fiddlesticks, Garen, Blitzcrank) I'd like his e to have an interrupt though, it's stupid that he can't even have that

PhifeMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And none of those are bursters like Talon. (Cho'gath, Malzahar, Soraka, Fiddlesticks, Garen, Blitzcrank)

????????????

Cho gath 100-0's people right now, malzahar has one of the highest ap ratio kits in the game (give you his kit still sucks balls, it does damage), and fiddle / garen both deal a shit ton of damage!

The whole arguement that fixates on talon not being able to have a silence is twisted and false, His playstyle used to be anti mage who scales into late game.

But ever since 1 person played him 3 times in the LCS (not even doing well) "WE GOTTA NERF THIS GUY HE DOES WAY TO MUCH DAMAGE ALL AT ONCE!"

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100622020817/spongebob/images/c/c9/3DaysLater2.jpg

We have Removed Talons Silence.

Don't get me wrong, i think Talon should have been compensated with something else to spice up his kit but in all complete honesty, he doesn't need to E away from enemies (useable on Allies), Its just not talons kit, character, playstyle.

Hes cutthroat, not jump boat.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

????????????

Cho gath 100-0's people right now, malzahar has one of the highest ap ratio kits in the game (give you his kit still sucks balls, it does damage), and fiddle / garen both deal a shit ton of damage!

The whole arguement that fixates on talon not being able to have a silence is twisted and false, His playstyle used to be anti mage who scales into late game.

But ever since 1 person played him 3 times in the LCS (not even doing well) "WE GOTTA NERF THIS GUY HE DOES WAY TO MUCH DAMAGE ALL AT ONCE!"

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100622020817/spongebob/images/c/c9/3DaysLater2.jpg

We have Removed Talons Silence.

Cho'gath is also a giant monster, but yeah, he's pretty fucking OP right now. Malz Silence is kind of hard to hit if you predict, you have to give it that. But yeah, he also has a suppression. Fiddle is fiddle, he's glass and if he gets cc'd out of his W he's pretty screwed. And his ult is a big channel. I got nothing on Garen, he's fucking annoying. Soraka I'm happy with having a silence, because she fucks her shit up when she heals, and her sustain is hard to hit

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Cho'gath is also a giant monster, but yeah, he's pretty fucking OP right now. Malz Silence is kind of hard to hit if you predict, you have to give it that. But yeah, he also has a suppression. Fiddle is fiddle, he's glass and if he gets cc'd out of his W he's pretty screwed. And his ult is a big channel. I got nothing on Garen, he's fucking annoying. Soraka I'm happy with having a silence, because she fucks her shit up when she heals, and her sustain is hard to hit

I guess it's because they just don't like Talon, lategame zed has higher burst and safety, whereas Talon excels midgame to early lategame, but when everybody has their builds, he gets screwed over really easily. (like, teamfight, attempt to execute the apc, nope zhonyas bitch.

PhifeMay 19, 20151 votes

Exactly, Talon has no way of escape.

Riot failed to examine him completely before they gutted him, Whereas before they removed silence He could attempt to assassinate a target before they were able to zhonyas / flash / heal / barrier (mind you it was a single second, no longer no less!) But now, he jumps on a target and if he doesn't get his auto + Q + W off he will die, Besides if you're behind on talon and fail to kill the target you're on, you will most likely die.

I haven't even mentioned talons shit of an excuse for a passive.

jDVL20eCYsMay 19, 20152 votes

naa to stronk buff his q

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=ekko or feed,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bzlotepp,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2015-05-19T21:53:35.789+0000)

naa to stronk buff his q

Oi fuckboy, can you stop trolling the forums? Kthanks, bye.

jDVL20eCYsMay 19, 20151 votes

lol mad for nothing, just honest lol, chill mad silver

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=ekko or feed,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bzlotepp,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-19T22:00:01.874+0000)

lol mad for nothing, just honest lol, chill mad silver

New division should be called Quicksilver, for all salty Silver players who get mad easily.

jDVL20eCYsMay 19, 20151 votes

yes you would be number one in that division :D

KrigjerMay 19, 20151 votes

My friend is a Katarina main and says Talon is bullshit freelo. Take that as you will, he's gold.

Anyway. I've always found it odd that Talon is gated by mana and Katarina isn't.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

My friend is a Katarina main and says Talon is bullshit freelo. Take that as you will, he's gold.

Anyway. I've always found it odd that Talon is gated by mana and Katarina isn't.

"bullshit freelo" Katarina main, haha. How do you think he got to gold? But yeah, it's strange. But katarina is a poster champion, so they have to stand out

KrigjerMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"bullshit freelo" Katarina main, haha. How do you think he got to gold? But yeah, it's strange. But katarina is a poster champion, so they have to stand out

By playing adc with me supporting him, lol. No really, we duo'd a lot last season and he hit gold in a Tristana game, after we marathoned climbing silver. I unfortunately got stuck in S3 and only grazed S1 while he climbed.

WalkingInACircleMay 19, 20151 votes

I think it would be better to give Talon a free reset on all of his skills whenever he gets - or is anywhere near - a kill.

The Tilted KingMay 20, 20151 votes

well. talon is a pure damage champion that can burst down anyone without high sustain (i.e. Mundo) from 100-0 talon can do this relatively early in the game with only a handful of gold. (really, 3 longswords and a pickaxe and he can all in a squishy at level 6) and leave them dead in seconds. he doesnt even need it. what I think (just my opinion) is that people WANT talon to be precedent in 5v5's. which really isnt the case. his damage is high, his cooldowns are high and his burst is basically off the table if just his E alone is on CD because part of talons burst is the surprise it brings of a non telegraphed and in some times unviewable blink.

itd be too much for him to ward hop/ally hop imo

ofc, theres also that talon is the highest and fastest delete button ive seen myself. and if your gonna play a champ like that and you havent thought of ahead of time a way to leave, then you should probably stop playing him or start thinking smarter/get some damn vision because he's a high risk high reward assassin.

Also, themetically... the skill is called cutthroat...cut your allies throats? the wards? it doesnt really uh..fit.

aside from that, just git gud. talon dont need a sissy escape button ( Katarina Irelia LeeSin )

SairentosutokaMay 20, 20151 votes

The problem with that is you would need to make his ult not stealth him... he has an escape a good one at that. if kat jumps into a fight she cannot escape since she has used her e. if talon jumps into a fight he can escape if the enemy team doesnt have a pink prepared.

CreationFlawMay 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The problem with that is you would need to make his ult not stealth him... he has an escape a good one at that. if kat jumps into a fight she cannot escape since she has used her e. if talon jumps into a fight he can escape if the enemy team doesnt have a pink prepared.

But that's his ultimate.. That's what I've been trying to say. It's a huge chunk of damage that's gone because you have to perform your combo then ult, and run away. And then if they zhonyas you ded.