About Enchantment: Magus...

Variks the Loyal·May 13, 2015·6 votes·1,055 views

I know Nidalee builds Magus, and then opts for either a RoA or Tear for mana sustain. What stops other Mages from doing the same?

I assume it's because Nidalee has cougar abilities that don't cost mana.

25 Comments

SukishooMay 13, 20154 votes

I don't even build Magus on her... I've built Warrior, Devourer or even Cinderhulk. I don't like the stats that Magus gives, it really needs an update.

Variks the LoyalMay 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't even build Magus on her... I've built Warrior, Devourer or even Cinderhulk. I don't like the stats that Magus gives, it really needs an update.

I agree it needs a Cinderhulk-style update, I was just asking out of curiosity. The Karma changes have me wondering if Karma jungle could be a thing with Magus around.

IcyPepperMay 13, 20151 votes

Karma jungle has been a thing for awhile, IIRC.

Hinagiku33May 14, 20151 votes

I mean I used to jungle Karma before her rework every now and then, but Karma anything has never exactly been popular. Not sure if these changes will make her a popular pick jungle though - she seems like she'll be better as a support and I don't see her being able to defend herself from bruisers and tanks invading to counter-jungle her.

Mages have always been super rare in the jungle because they are weak early game with no defense, no sustain, and weak basic attacks so they take ages to clear and take too much damage doing it. The mana and cooldown gating for the first few levels has been brutal every time I try item 3070

SukishooMay 13, 20151 votes

I love Karma jungle, and those changes will make her come back! :D

Khell DarkWolfMay 13, 20154 votes

It isnt that magus is bad, its just that it doesn't have mana regen.

If it just gave some for free then it would be solid.

But the stemming issue is the fact there really isn't many Mage junglers.

SerevasMay 13, 20152 votes

Fiddlesticks Nidalee Diana Karthus

Amumu Elise Evelynn can also technically build the item.

Widder88May 13, 20152 votes

And Gragas Malzahar Akali Jax Fizz

Hinagiku33May 14, 20151 votes

Jungle Nid is more bruiser than mage.

Jungle Diana is basically just an AP bruiser.

Eve is...um...a tank now or something? Pretty sure AD has been better on her lately (I think?).

Amumu is a tank.

Elise is a tank when played in the jungle.

Gragas is a bruiser as well.

I have never seen jungle Malz outside of URF mode.

Akali is not even remotely known for jungling.

Jax is in no way, shape, or form a mage. Also he's a top lane duelist that is generally wasted in the jungle.

Fizz is also not known for jungling.

Fiddle has been a mage jungler at times since he usually sucks in lane these days (except for SupportSticks of course).

Karthus is a rare jungle pick that mostly worked in the Spirit Stone jungle that had stupidly good mana-regen and when the jungle was easy enough that literally anyone could jungle. He's been mostly absent from the jungle in Season 5 except for a few die-hards.

...so we have Fiddlesticks and a couple of AP bruisers that either have dual-scaling and benefit more from Warrior enchant or are auto-attack reliant and benefit more from Devourer.

Widder88May 14, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Br76FYXe,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-14T00:18:23.811+0000)

Jungle Nid is more bruiser than mage.

I only see AP Nidalees in the jungle.

Jungle Diana is basically just an AP bruiser.

I only see Full Assasin Dianas in the jungle.

Eve is...um...a tank now or something? Pretty sure AD has been better on her lately (I think?).

AP item is better for her. Full AP is also the best way to build her.

Amumu is a tank.

Is playable as AP.

Elise is a tank when played in the jungle.

But playable as assasin.

Gragas is a bruiser as well.

Playable as AP too.

I have never seen jungle Malz outside of URF mode.

I have seen it.

Akali is not even remotely known for jungling.

Has good sustain and good assassination potential.

Jax is in no way, shape, or form a mage.

If he can farm, what he can do in the jungle AP Jax gets very strong. Does not make a mage out of him, but an ap assasin.

Fizz is also not known for jungling.

I see tons of Fizz jungle.

...so we have Fiddlesticks and a couple of AP bruisers that either have dual-scaling and benefit more from Warrior enchant or are auto-attack reliant and benefit more from Devourer.

Fiddlesticks and Nidalee are mages. Karthus, Malzahar and Brand are not that common, but mages too. The others are assassins and bruisers, because they are meele, but the AP item is nontheless the first or at least an equal choice for them.

Hinagiku33May 15, 20151 votes

Huh, maybe EUW plays different?

I see Nid go full AP sometimes, but in the jungle I see people build her tankier for cougar form. I don't see her jungle too much anymore but she can get Magus.

I don't see Diana anymore period. Last I saw her, she was being built tankier instead of full glass cannon AP, but I assume she can probably jungle okay and Magus would be better on her than anything else if she did.

Every time I see jungle Eve she's gotten Stalker's Blade with Warrior enchant, probably because she's auto-attacks a lot and has AD scaling.

I've never seen Amumu not go tank. Not getting Cinderhulk honestly sounds like he'd just be nerfing himself.

There's a good reason no one plays assassin Elise in the jungle. Lane maybe, but in the jungle she's always gone Rylai's / Lyandri's and tank so Cinderhulk would honestly work better for her.

I thought Riot nerfed full AP Gragas really hard? I don't see him jungle so I'm not sure if he'd go tanky with Cinderhulk or try for Magus build.

Malz can't really go anything but Magus if you jungle him, but I've never see him jungle...

Akali is a poor jungler and it's very rare that I've seen people try. I've tried a couple times but her early sustain is terrible (Spellvamp heals almost nothing early when your abilities do such little damage). Also the range nerfs to her ult really hurt her gank potential so I'm not sure Magus would be worth it on her.

Taking Jax jungle seems like a waste and I've never seen it. Considering he can 1v5 with Triforce, BotRK, and full tank he seems like he'd be far, far better off with Cinderhulk.

I've seen Fizz jungle maybe once...maybe? Not sure if Warrior or Magus would be more optimal though.

Mages in general just don't get taken jungle much from my experience. Weak basic attacks really hurts their first clear since they lose a lot of health to the first couple camps until they get all their spells and even then the second clear is often harsh until they can level their farming tool a bit. They tend to be super weak to invades and counter-jungling too so I've never seen it being worthwhile to jungle a squishy mage.

I guess if they made a super OP version of Magus it might be worth it, but it just seems like a gimmicky thing some people might do for fun as it is now.

Widder88May 15, 20151 votes

Nidalees and Dianas buy items like RoA, Abyssal and Zhonyas but no tank items like Randuins. So i still call them mages/assassins.

AP Eve is better than AD Eve. I know this, because i main this.

I see sometimes AP Amumu and it hurts a lot. This is really strong. No joke.

Gragas and Elise can buy Cinderhulk, and that is probably/maybe stronger, but their AP versions are still playable.

Malzahar can buy Warrior. That is more common than Magus (still rare). I prefer Magus though. His strength is, that he can farm super fast, and he has Warwick ult.

I recommend Magus on Akali. Her sustain is no problem. The only weakness is, that she can't gank before Level 6. But her laning phase is bad before Level 6 too.

Jax can jungle, and can buy every jungle item. Most common is Devourer and Cinderhulk probably. I prefer Magus, because it is a little bit OP stat-wise.

Fizz jungle was very common earlier this season with Devouerer at least in EUW, now Cinderhulk and Magus is more common. He can buy every jungle item, Warrior is actually the worst imo.

Real ranged mages have often the problem in the jungle, that they don't have good ganks, are bad in 1vs1 and have mana problems. But Magus is nonetheless a really good item. It doesn't change the kit of mages, who are bad for jungling, but many meele AP champions can use Magus very well. And some few mages too. It is more gold efficient than Warrior. You just need a good kit to be able to use it.

Linna ExcelMay 13, 20153 votes

Most other mages can't jungle. Also while 80AP and 20% cdr is nice, it's not like a mage has to get it... I could get morello's instead.

disregardableMay 13, 20152 votes

Why build Magus when you could just build item 3165

PalPlaysMay 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Br76FYXe,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-05-13T17:37:26.345+0000)

Why build Magus when you could just build

Because I'm going to build that on Amumu. Waste of an inventory slot.

If Magus gave mana regen of some sort, I would get it on Amumu.

disregardableMay 13, 20153 votes

Since when is Amumu a mage?

KMannnnn1May 14, 20151 votes

Well I mean there's a proud community of full AP amumus who recognize they would probably be better off just building full tank.

Full AP is way more fun though.

disregardableMay 14, 20151 votes

Nah. I feel like every champion feels a lot more fun to play with at least one or two damage items, with the sole exception of perhaps DrMundo

PalPlaysMay 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Br76FYXe,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-13T17:46:45.119+0000)

Since when is a mage?

"Assassin" Amumu has always been a thing, I see it a lot in Diamond play (I'm not Diamond). If you build AP and Magic Pen, his ult can be a great AoE nuke.

stuartk11May 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Assassin" Amumu has always been a thing, I see it a lot in Diamond play

Has it? Because if so, I've never seen it. Also, how would "assassin" Amumu work with 2 damage-over-time AoEs? Would you Q, then ult, then hope your DoTs are enough? Seems incredibly weak. Seeing it commonly in Diamond play, though, I am calling lies on.

PalPlaysMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Has it? Because if so, I've never seen it. Also, how would "assassin" Amumu work with 2 damage-over-time AoEs? Would you Q, then ult, then hope your DoTs are enough? Seems incredibly weak. Seeing it commonly in Diamond play, though, I am calling lies on.

Here's one of the guys I know who plays AP Amumu in Diamond: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/274056

(^He used it a lot more pre-Cinderhulk^)

You're wrong, he only has 1 DoT AoE. The premise behind Assassin Amumu is not to get kills, it's to burst down your opponents and let the laners clean up. Before Cinderhulk, I built Magus, Rylai's, Abyssal, Liandry's, and/or Zhonya's. Amumu has decent ratios PLUS his passive, so AP Amumu isn't that bad.

SlytherinUmbreonMay 13, 20151 votes

The problem is, a lot of the mages that can jungle are utility mages who want to be early gankers. Morgana Karma Zyra They don't want to build Tear/RoA as a second item and then wait another 20 minutes for those items to become effective, they want to start bridging their way into the mid and late game. And honestly, I feel like if you're going to try Magus for early power and then start stacking a RoA, Why not run Cinderhulk and then go tanky and build up late game power anyway? item 3709 item 3027 / item 3116 item 3001 item 3157

Jungle Lux GodMay 14, 20151 votes

What is stopping most mages from getting Tear or RoA is that most mages cannot even baseline clear the jungle efficiently. They either need to spend too much mana or need to spend too much health in order to clear a camp.

In order to be playable, an AP jungler needs to either have mana and/or health sustain built into their kits, be manaless or otherwise have abilities that do not use mana (so mana is not an issue), or have such fast and efficient clears that a lack of health sustain does not matter.

Of course, there are some AP junglers that do just fine (Fiddlesticks and Nidalee immediately come to mind), but the truth of the matter is that the jungle is poorly suited for AP junglers. The buffs from Krugs and Gromp don't do much to help them clear the jungle, blue buff is a mandatory pickup early if any mana-based mage expects to clear the jungle early, midgame clears take so much mana and health from the mages that they cannot consistently farm the jungle at a reasonable pace, and the Magus enchantment is arguably the worst in the game right now in terms of enchants. There are some mages that can jungle, but that number is so low compared to users of the other enchants, and most mages can afford to take other items rather than take Magus, and just sell their jungle item later on for something more useful.

Skia AsteriMay 14, 20151 votes

Because having to build two items and then wait for stacks to be a champion rather than a minion rather than just building one is a bad feeling. As such only champions that can succeed with just Magus work.

ErockandrollMay 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I know Nidalee builds Magus, and then opts for either a RoA or Tear for mana sustain. What stops other Mages from doing the same?

I assume it's because Nidalee has cougar abilities that don't cost mana.

Mana sustain in the Jungle is likely balanced around blue buff. Even though it's 90% more effective on your midlaner.

Nidalee with her couger's pounce ability, she does not have to get boots as soon as her Jungle item is complete. Most other Junglers would need the MS to pull off ganks. allowing her to pick up Tear or RoA instead.

Honestly I feel like their are too few Jungle mages to really make a Judgement on Magus. We have nid, fiddle, diana, maybe karthus, and a few other Junglers who can go AP as an off build. If we're going to fix the problem with Magus, we need to ask, Why AP Junglers? What do they bring to the teamcomp? what play potential do they have? And what do they need to pull that off. Because I feel like these AP Junglers would benefit from Magus by different degrees.