Every Bard I see has Thunderlord

S0kaX·Oct 17, 2016·5 votes·1,693 views

Is there a reason to take Thunderlord over Windspeaker?

60 Comments

nice tableOct 17, 201617 votes

taking windspeaker on bard is like taking it on thresh, basically its terrible.

ZielmannOct 17, 201610 votes

He procs it very easily with Q-Auto (when he has a meep available). And his healing isn't really great enough for the windspeakers to make a huge difference. While he can offer up clutch heals, his health pack things are more for lane sustain, as the heal is relatively weak if you don't let the health pack mature.

S0kaXOct 17, 20161 votes

The heal is pretty big even if given instantly if you have item 3003 and item 3092 and Windspeaker

ZielmannOct 17, 201616 votes

Why does Bard have item 3003 ?

S0kaXOct 17, 20162 votes

Because I run out of mana

ZielmannOct 17, 20168 votes

item 3092 + runes + masteries should be all you need.

Are you spamming the health shrines to top off your carry all lane?

S0kaXOct 17, 20161 votes

No, but I try to stun the enemy using Q and I place down shrines from time to time.

ZielmannOct 17, 201611 votes

Sounds like it might be a case of too much spamming of abilities, or possibly not breaking off enough to collect chimes. Chimes give you back 12% max mana each.

S0kaXOct 17, 20162 votes

I know that collecting chimes give you mana back, but I can't just let the adc alone in lane because I don't have mana so I buy item 3070

ZielmannOct 17, 20162 votes

There should always be a window where you can quickly run through the bot lane side of the jungle to pick up a few chimes without leaving your ADC in too much danger. Also, watch for single chimes that show up nearby and you can get a small boost of mana from those without leaving lane for long at all.

As for the use of the heals, generally I just see Bards dropping one back by their tower and letting it sit for a long time, then just holding onto that mana so they can afford the clutch heal later on if needed. It really shouldn't be something you need to cast all that often.

Even with improved mana management, if you wanted to afford yourself a little extra ability to be a bit more careless with spells, I'd much rather see Bard go for item 3110 or even item 3025 over item 3003 .

item 3110 tends to be his standard route. It's a good support-y item, as the aura helps the whole team. And the item 3024 is a solid early pickup for mana, cdr, and some armor against the enemy ADC. And while it doesn't have actual mana regen attached to it, the flat increase of mana will effectively increase his mana sustain from chimes, since it's based on a % of his max mana.

item 3025 would be a fun item if you want to play more aggro. It's probably more of a luxury than anything, but it could be great for pressing an early advantage. You could buy an early item 3057 for some crazy harass, plus the extra mana it gives (again, contributing to sustain via the chimes). And once you complete the whole thing, you get that nice slow on it to help catch things out, though it gets slightly redundant once he has enough chimes to get the slow on meep attack).

To me, item 3003 is just a purely selfish item, and generally that's not what teams need from their supports. It eventually gives a good chunk of AP, but even that takes a while to build. There's not even CDR to allow you to use your abilities more often and take advantage of that giant pile of mana you have. And while talking about that pile of mana, it'll actually become largely overkill for you once you do start to roam and gather some chimes.

S0kaXOct 18, 20161 votes

Selfish item? I buy that item to give my teammates health back, that is not selfish, that's what a support with heal does.

FlahertyOct 17, 20165 votes

don't spam your abilities unnecessarily and you shouldn't run out

warpenguin555Oct 17, 20163 votes

That's when you type "chimes for mana" and take 2-3 of the closest chimes and come back to lane with a good portion of mana back

S0kaXOct 17, 20161 votes

I go, but those chimes only give me about 2 heals and maybe 1 Q.

AptestOct 18, 20161 votes

I find that, when you give the ADC some time to simmer on his missing HP, they settle down with the catching of the skillshots and don't guzzle up your healz as much.

Sariat1Oct 17, 20162 votes

You need to collect more chimes then

OleandervineOct 17, 20165 votes

{quoted}

He procs it very easily with Q-Auto (when he has a meep available). And his healing isn't really great enough for the windspeakers to make a huge difference. While he can offer up clutch heals, his health pack things are more for lane sustain, as the heal is relatively weak if you don't let the health pack mature.

I use them as boost pads more often than not.

ZielmannOct 17, 20161 votes

That too. I was more focusing on the healing aspect, since Bard+Windspeakers was more the topic at hand.

Definitely very useful at little speed boosts for sure. Still isn't making that much use of the heal portion itself.

Big LincolnOct 17, 20167 votes

bards heal is terrible and also the ability you max last 9/10 games

Thunderlord gives you amazing trading power and his laning is very mediocre without it

Friendly RamOct 17, 20164 votes

E before w?

Big LincolnOct 17, 20165 votes

you get more from maxing E first

more mobility, faster travel speed thru portal, and a lower cool down is way better than the marginal gain on W levels. if the time needed to reach fill heal scales down with level I might consider it, but E is def better for all the roaming and escape potential

MLDzXnRRROct 17, 20164 votes

Bard was overbuffed and now he is a kill lane burst damage dealer that becomes annoying ganker and later just a distraction for the enemy team that tries to chase him.

InHaruhiWeTrustOct 17, 20161 votes

^this. he was supposed to be a caretaker, but he was terrible at caretaking(and everything else) at first. sooooo they made him an assassin sup lol I don't have the actual numbers, but from experience bard takes summoner 14 more than any other sup in the game. you know... cause the best way to take care of someone is to chase down and burst the people who want to hurt them and burn them alive.

Big LincolnOct 17, 20162 votes

how is he supposed to be a caretaker? he has 1 ability that heals his teammates

and then he has a passive that does damage and scales, a slow/stun, an ability for roaming and ganking, and his ultimate which is usually used to set up a wombo

InHaruhiWeTrustOct 17, 20161 votes

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh cause this..... http://imgur.com/EQ8zu5k

WeedTitsOct 17, 20164 votes

Because meeps proc thunderlords, it's as simple as that. Without thunderlords and auto attacking, Bard's poke and harass in lane is useless. And his heal is garbage unless you let a shrine mature. If you don't take thunderlords on Bard, you'll have no impact in the lane at all. And you should never buy tear on Bard, that's ridiculous. Just go grab chimes for mana, they even spawn in lane and it takes 2 to put you back at 50%.

DHZOct 17, 20163 votes

Take Thunderlord 100% of the time.

AA with meep + Q + Thunderlord on the enemy ADC hits like a truck early game.

Ruin LanceOct 17, 20163 votes

because bard's harass and damage is insane with it.

windspeaker's is pretty lackluster on him since his heal isn't that strong and it's also not what makes bard strong

WarpesOct 18, 20163 votes

i can't believe people would actually take windspeaker on bard...

he has ONE ability, with a huge cooldown, that barely does any healing... tied to a movespeed buff, and isn't even targetable. that's like saying alistar or maokai should take windspeaker bc "LOLHEALZOP", but at least their heals are used in combat lmao.

he's not a fucking healer. no wonder so many people still can't figure out wtf to do with bard...

S0kaXOct 18, 20161 votes

Not targetable? It means you haven't played Bard
Sona also has only 1 ability that heals
If you don't heal much it means you don't build any ap at all
Huge cooldown is a problem? CDR is the solution.

WarpesOct 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Not targetable? It means you haven't played Bard

Sona also has only 1 ability that heals

If you don't heal much it means you don't build any ap at all

Huge cooldown is a problem? CDR is the solution.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

S0kaXOct 18, 20161 votes

Okay your future posts will be invalid since your comments are troll.

WarpesOct 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Okay your future posts will be invalid since your comments are troll.

please don't ever play bard again.

or at least the very least don't post your opinions on these forums. you have proven yourself to be a completely incompetent player with 0 real logic.

S0kaXOct 18, 20161 votes

If you want to troll go somewhere else, I won't fall for your troll.

WarpesOct 18, 20164 votes

{quoted}

If you want to troll go somewhere else, I won't fall for your troll.

that's why all of your points have multiple downvotes, and everyone telling you you're flat out bad for taking windspeakers has like 10+ upvotes right? except my recent ones who have been only downvoted by you, and you alone.

if anyone is the troll, it's you. and the bard playing part of the community cannot afford to be infected further by your incessant stupid. just stop.

S0kaXOct 18, 20161 votes

Wow, typical comment by a troll, I would argue with you, but logic isn't very effective against trolls.

WarpesOct 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Wow, typical comment by a troll, I would argue with you, but logic isn't very effective against trolls.

so basically what you're trying to tell us is that you're the one trolling, and claiming that others are, as a way of trolling further?

thnx for confirming.

S0kaXOct 18, 20161 votes

Um, no. you're the one trolling because you're insulting me for no reason, have I called people that disagree with me trolls? No, also thanks for showing that you are 100% a troll.

WarpesOct 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Um, no. you're the one trolling because you're insulting me for no reason, have I called people that disagree with me trolls? No, also thanks for showing that you are 100% a troll.

actually all i did do was disagree with you, not my fault if you can't handle it and starting throwing out "troll" any time you get your panties in a bunch.

right now i'm legitimately embarrassed for you son

S0kaXOct 18, 20161 votes

No, you went full troll mode and started to insult me for no reason, that's what a troll does, I still wonder when will you stop pretending you're not a troll.

WarpesOct 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No, you went full troll mode and started to insult me for no reason, that's what a troll does, I still wonder when will you stop pretending you're not a troll.

do you even realize how much of a baby you sound like right now? still crying because too many people disagreed with you?

get over it and move on already kid. stop being exactly what's wrong with your generation.

S0kaXOct 19, 20161 votes

You do realize that I don't cry and also I respect that people disagree with me, right? you can see in my previous comments that are not with you, also still waiting to reveal you're a troll.

WarpesOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that I don't cry and also I respect that people disagree with me, right? you can see in my previous comments that are not with you, also still waiting to reveal you're a troll.

lmao i can't believe you're actually still crying about this.

that is some world class butthurt kiddo... time to get over it.

JorenciceOct 18, 20163 votes

Actually alistar DOES take windspeaker.

His heal is an aoe with decent range.

Ita very easy in a team fight to give your entire team 20 armor and magic resist.

Which should never be underestimated.

WarpesOct 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Actually alistar DOES take windspeaker.

His heal is an aoe with decent range.

Ita very easy in a team fight to give your entire team 20 armor and magic resist.

Which should never be underestimated.

actually no... that is awful, and NO ONE takes windspeakers on alistar. Im not sure where you're getting that info from m8, but it's not even close to meta OR considered even an off meta picked for him.

the heal itself is next to nothing, especially late game, aoe or not, which means the returns are next to nothing. and 20 armor/mr is also horrible returns, by the time team fights are happening, unless it's tied to actual effective heals and sustain, like soraka/sona/nami.

having it in lane on alistar however, is nothing more than a bad way to waste your mana, which he's already severely strapped for.

windspeakers is used on healers and "shielders" who can spam these abilities, on a decent cooldown, IN LANE (meaning before cdr is bought). it translates to 0 late game effectiveness on any champ that isn't a "healer"

but at the same time, it still makes more sense than on bard. like i said.

{quoted}

taking windspeaker on bard is like taking it on thresh, basically its terrible.

this player put it best.

people really need to stop thinking they're super clever for playing ridiculous builds in bronze and unranked, just because their own flawed logic sounds good to them.

JorenciceOct 18, 20162 votes

The person who told me to take windspeakers is in masters 200 lp right now.

By the laws of GD his word trumps you automaticly.

Sorry bud.

WarpesOct 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The person who told me to take windspeakers is in masters 200 lp right now.

By the laws of GD his word trumps you automaticly.

Sorry bud.

i trust the word of actual pros over your "friend", who probably has never played alistar a day in his life, or is simply pulling your leg.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Alistar

sorry bud.

JorenciceOct 18, 20162 votes

No hes just cares about defense more than offense.

Lets give an example.

MF has 1975 base health and 75 base armor.

A windspeakers gives 22 armor at level 18 which is an increase of 7% damage reduction (already better than bond of stone) which is a effective health increase of around 140 health.

Windspeakers also increase the ally heal by 6 which in effective health is 10 more life.

So thats so far a total of 150 effective health

And thats only if it hits 1 person if you get it off during a big team fight and it hits all 4 allys...

Now thunderlords deals 180 magic damage which since alistar build no magic pen gets reduced.

Now im giving thunderlords best case scenarior and assuming alistar procs thunderlords of the enemy adc (MF) and not someone else considering all of his aoe. who was gracious enough to build absolutly no MR

Which gives her 30 MR at a 22% reduction. Which means thunderlords best case scenario deals 139 to miss fortune.

Which means windspeakers hitting a single person is already better than thunderlords.

AND if you take in account the standard MF pages takes MR runes thunderlords damage drops to 126...

But hey what does a fucking master tier player know?

Nothing i guess.

Not saying thunderlords isnt good. But neither is windspeakers bad on alistar.

EDIT: As a side note though i wouldnt ever build what the pros do.

Solo q and tournament play are 2 entirely different beasts.

Even the pros them self build differently in solo q

WarpesOct 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No hes just cares about defense more than offense.

Lets give an example.

.........

your points and math would all make logical sense if it wasn't for the fact that you had to 1) use an ability to proc windspeakers, and 2) said ability has a cooldown, and mana costs. on top of the fact that alistar is a very mana heavy champion.

for these reasons alone, and many others, both thunderlords and bond of stone are dramatically more efficient, and more effective. they've been proven time and time again to be so, not just by the pros, but by everyone who plays in plat+ (or any elo really) as well. probuilds is just one example. the meta is still thunderlords on every other meta measurement website. and as far as off meta goes, it's still even bond of stone, and not windspeakers.

and in next to no cases ever (except as I said, some people mistakenly thinking they're "clever") is windspeakers actually taken, much less a viable pick. it's not even about defense vs offense... it's just flat out bad for him.

150 effective health on an adc for only a few seconds IS nothing. however additional thunderlords damage on the enemy adc during poke/engage and even disengage, bot lane 2v2, is a big deal. plus it's not just about the math, it's about the mechanics of the champion himself.

you also greatly contradict yourself by saying challenger tier players should not be followed, but master tier should be? especially one, singular master tier player vs dozens of challengers... who like i said, for all we know could be telling you this just to get some kicks.

EDIT: And just to emphasize a point... I am also a player who greatly prefers and stresses defense over offense. To the point where my friends sometimes hate me for telling them how to build (even though I often end up being right, or carry them, and they know this). But in the case of alistar (and bard, topic much?), windspeakers flat out does not win, and simply gives god awful returns, no matter how you look at it. But I'm not simply taking my own word and opinion for it here.