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In depth view of Karma’s Kit Issues and how to fix them (constructive :) )

Warden Karma··24 votes·3,077 views

#Welcome Summoners and Member Riots :)

Currently, Karma seems fine Balance wise in the game. But taking a closer look at her it becomes clear that her Kit has several issues in it that prevents her from using it to full efficiency. These Issues also make her feel “weird” sometimes and give Players enough Reason not to pick her (above other Champions). I know there are a lot of preseason Changes out there but those will not solve the issues of Karma's Kit as these are mostly not based on numbers but rather on their mechanics.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/69/Karma_OriginalLoading.jpg

#TL;DR:

  • Gathering Fire should interact with Karma's whole Kit not only the damage Component.
  • Karma's Q schould not be a colliding skillshot because
  • "only" source of damage
  • Detonation area is too small to compensate it being colliding, but cant be buffed due to counterplay issues.
  • primary Damage tool of a mage is "always" passing through Units (Q should be more like Lux E)
  • Damage from RQ should be completely moved to its Cataclysm because of this.
  • Increase Karma's Shield-Haste Duration a little bit for each rank (from 1,6 to 2 Seconds).

#At the Moment, Karma suffers from an Identity issue:

Many players tend not to pick Karma because she has “no real nice”, often compared to what she can do in contrast to other Champions and what she can not do. Lately she is often described as being a “worse Lulu”. I often read that Players struggle to fill the following sentence: I pick Karma because… The most problematic parts of her Kit are her Passive and her Q, while E just needs a little tweak. Karma’s decision making is heavily influenced by her Passive, leading her Mantra almost always on her Q, even though it should have empowered another Ability (E) in this situation. In most situations her _**Mantra choices feel restricted **_and because of that they do not feel good.

#Gathering Fire [Passive]:

Every now and then a Thread pops up on the Gameplay and Balance Board: A Suggestion to change or (re)move Karma’s Passive. Thus, the frequently asked change seems to has its reasons. Lets take a look why people feel that Karma’s Passive is ineffective or unsatisfying:

  • The Passive is only supported by a part of her kit (only 3 out of 6 Abilities), these 3 Abilities will always be preferred above the other 3, especially “only” the Mantra’d Q.
  • This means that the Passive **does not reward for making the right decisions **for your Mantra or Abilities, instead you feel bad because you know that you lost lots of CDR from your Passive for casting your spells in the right order or for making the right decision (e.g.: Normal Combo for Karma is E-W-RQ, meaning you loose ~6-9 Seconds CDR or RE to save your Team).
  • Looking at the example above (and the points under it) it gets clear, that the Passive “counters” itself more or less. Since you only gain CDR from the Passive when Mantra is on Cooldown, you want to spam it as soon as possible out, whether the moment is right or the decision is.
  • This also means, that Karma has no Passive if Mantra is Off Cooldown.
  • In Addition to this, a Passive like this **is normally moved to the Ability associated **to it (here the Ult).

In fact her Passive and Ultimate are created to go hand in hand, emphasizing Karma's Mantra concept. Unfotunately, Karma's Kit seems not to support this; in contradiction its even "playing against" this "Harmony" forcing decisions often to be either doing the right Mantra or using the Passive at its best. This outlined especially after her "soft rework" some Patches ago, where the additional Damage was removed from RW and RE.

Suggestion:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/68/Gathering_Fire.png

Reduces the Cooldown of Mantra by 2 Seconds each time, Karma damages an enemy Champion with her Abilities (half for Autoattacks). Inspire and Defiance reduces the Cooldown of every allied Champion shielded by 1,50 Seconds. If Renewal roots the primary enemy Champion, the Cooldown of Mantra is reduced by 4 Seconds. Karma can store up to 4/6/8 Seconds of Gathering Fire, applying instantly after Mantra goes on Cooldown.

#Inner Flame/ Soulflare [Q]:

Inner flame gives Karma her current Identity: a long ranged Poke Mage.

But the Design of Inner Flame has massive Problems:

  1. **It detonates on the first enemy hit/ leaves a cataclysm. **
  • While this is not problematic itself, even offering good amount of counterplay, it actually** hinders Karma’s potential by a lot** (it would be ok if it wouldn’t be her main Damage source).
  • Q is Karma’s only “real” source of Damage. Missing it (which is easily done just by body blocking) means missing “all” of your kits Damage, thus being extremely punished especially when it was Mantrad.
  • It is **nearly impossible for RQ to proc its second Damage component itself. **Think about that. It always needs help (e.g. W which needs Karma to go mid range, loosing the advantage of a long range Q) or mistakes from the enemy.
  • The **Detonation area of her basic Q does not feel rewarding enough **(too small), making it much more difficult to hit many targets with the slow and the damage compared to other mages.
  • Usually, Linear-Skillshot Abilities for Mages (or their primary Damage source) are passing through all targets (Ahri, Lulu, Lux, Xerath, Viktor, Lissandra…) to ensure they can deal enough Damage to the entire enemy Team. Comparing Lux’s E with Karma’s Q shows the Problem pretty clear: Lux’s E is passing through to the area being cast, it also has a bigger AOE, Slow and Range than Karma’s Q which only has slightly more Damage and a bit less CD.
  • RQ is overloaded with Damage (and tools) kitwise and to Balance things, the Damage in the rest of her kit had to be removed or adjusted.
  • Q is used for Poking, bursting, zoning and farming alike which leads to the Problem that Karma relies too much on her Q, having almost no other choices to do the listed things than to use her Q/RQ.
  • Missing a Mantrad Q means that Karma, even if she successfully manages to reduce the Cooldown, has to wait for another Mantra. A lot.
  • It is the only long ranged skill on a mage, which originally was intended to be mid/close ranged mage (W being mid-range).
  • This makes Q feeling weird: on the hand it’s a long ranged Poke but on the other hand it is **heavily restricted **due to the points mentioned above/under.
  • The Slow on the basic Q does not feel impactfull enough in many situations to make a difference (lower Duration and/or strength than similar slows).

All these Points summarises up to a huge Problem for Karma, which can not be solved as simply as by just giving her Q/RQ a bigger detonation Radius. Because the detonation Radius has to be hilariously big to make up for the damage being a colliding Skill shot and the only “real” (/primary) Damage source for a Mage (and Support). Also if the detonation Radius would be that huge the primary counter play to a Skillshot (blocked if colliding, dodged) would become quite unrealistic and unfair to accomplish, due to being a circular AoE. If Karma’s Q would pass through units, it would have a weird interaction since it would always explode on max range and not leave the cataclysm on the enemy itself. So it should be adjustable just like Lux’s W and have a slightly bigger AoE radius (when Mantrad) since you need to aim it. So Karma’s Q would be kinda alike with Lux’s E, but having little more Damage for little less Range (more diffucult to hit) and being used a bit differently (Basic Q can not zone, while Mantrad it can not be detonated manually).

Offered Solutions:

  1. Giving Karma’s Q the capability of passing through units.
  2. Increasing the Slow’s strength, but making it decaying.
  3. As a Trade for the changed aiming System, the Mantra Damage will not be separated anymore.

Suggestion:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/ad/Inner_Flame.png

Karma sends out magical Energies to the target location (250 AoE), dealing 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 65% AP) magic Damage and slowing enemies hit by 40% for 1 Second, decaying over time.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/45/Soulflare.png

+Mantra: Increases the AoE (350) and creates a cataclysm under it, which slows enemies inside by 40%. It detonates after 1,5 Seconds, dealing 75/ 200/ 325/ 450 (+70%) magic Damage.

#Focused Resolve/ Renewal [W]:

Currently, Karma’s W is a lesser problematic Ability and only needs little change to no change.

  • While Karma being a long ranged, Poke orientated Mage, she has to risk quite a lot to go in mid-Range to cast W (e.g. for her RQ, making her loose the advantage of Q being long range).
  • W feels like it is only designed as a tool for her RQ rather than giving Karma a wider area.
  • Even for RW, there shouldn’t be any snare lasting longer than 3 Seconds (3 Seconds already are too long imo).
  • In Late game the root feels like it takes too long to pull off.

Karma players often feel that this Ability is not as effective and variable as it should or could be. Therefore I will try to give W more versatility.

Optional Changes:

  • RW can be casted on Allies too
  • A little more room/gameplay for her RW.
  • Changing the RW effect to have a little AoE root (on tether touch) rather than to have a overtuned single target root.
  • Reducing the time, W/RW needs to trigger the root by a little bit for each point invested.

#Inspire/ Defiance [E]:

Her basic E is probably on of the lesser problematic things in her kit, that’s why it only needs a little adjustment.

The Main Problems of her current Shield are:

  • While the haste definitely has its moments to shine bright, it is too mediocre to make the Ability feeling “overall” impactfull.
  • Neither the shield nor the haste component is very strong - both of them are only moderate and easily outclassed by other Mixed-Shields and Mixed-Haste’s.
  • E.g. Kayles W grants a Heal and a 3 Second Speed buff. Heals are mostly more effective than Shields (don’t vanish) and the Haste is also stronger (scaling with AP in mid-late game) and lasts longer than Karma’s, making it stronger than Karma’s E in both ways although the Cooldown on it is higher.
  • Despite having a shorter Cooldown on E, it does not make up for one of its component to not feel “good enough”.
  • It does not proc her current Passive, heavily punishing for casting RE.

So for Karma’s E to be more effective it needs some changes to the Haste:

Suggested Changes:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/c/c4/Inspire.png

In Addition to the shield, the target gains 40/ 45/ 50/ 55/ 60% Movementspeed for 1.6/ 1.7/ 1.8/ 1.9/ 2 Seconds.

#Mantra [R]:

The main Problem this Ability has is that it suffers from the current Gathering Fire [Passive].

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/76/Mantra.png

It would be possible to move a mini-Gathering Fire to it and give Karma a new Passive, but that is optional.

#Final Words:

Applying these changes to her Passive, Q and E would help to make Karma’s Kit feeling a lot better and fluently. Her Kit would synergize better with itself, while separated Abilities (e.g. E/Q/RQ) feel more effective to use, rather than half effective or frustrating (Passive/Q/RQ). Also the changes to the Passive help Karma in terms of decision making for her Mantra. Instead of feeling that you should always Mantra Q for the extra Cdr, you can now decide more freely.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask. Concerns? Feel free to write them down here ^^

#Thank you for reading and participating : )

24 Comments

Tapu Fini13 votes

They've made her as generic a mage as humanly possible, they removed so much of what made her unique that she's not fun to play any more. Loved original Karma, shame they had to strip so much for the sake of viability.

Iirc there was a red post at some point saying how if they'd reworked her now instead of a couple years back, she would have felt more like she originally did (specifically, keeping her fans :0 )

Voluug131 votes

She couldnt have been seen as weak, specially in the assassin meta (where should could have dumped on Zed/Fizz like no one else).

Tapu Fini1 votes

She wasn't weak by any means, and she definitely gave assassins a run for their money ;p

This being said, minion bombing was pretty freaking imbalanced, and knowing when you could actually secure a kill on her was hard; the lower her health was the crazier she became. Her W also blew chunks everywhere, went on a team mate and they had to help you utilize it (nobody knew how)

Voluug132 votes

Then make it that you cant shield minions. Karma had awesome waveclearing anyways, shielding minions at the tower was unnecessary.

Change the passive or rework it.

''W required teamwork'' Thresh Braum Kalista Bard TahmKench .

Tapu Fini1 votes

At the time she was a really uncommon champion to actually see in a game, and those champs didn't exist. Champions that relied on allies to know what they're doing were a very fresh idea, and her W was poorly implemented.

Warden Karma1 votes

Thanks for your opinion,

I agree that Karma's relaunch was not a success in terms of reintroducing old Karma into the league, but apparently she has got some positive feedback from newer players, whilst most old Karma players feel disappointed.

Do you have by chance a link to when Riot stated that they "regretted" how they reworked Karma?

Back to the original Topic: With those changes I focused to fix the issues, Karma currently may or not may be experiencing.

(Because I believe it will be dificult to re-rework Karma like that so its better if Riot would consider to create a new Champion with old Karma's flair (maybe giving her back the name Karma and give current Karma a new Name etc.))

Tapu Fini1 votes

I'll dig for it, but no guarantees, it was semi-recent though... If I recall. Will edit with a link if I find it.

Even with these changes I don't think it would fix her entirely, her kit is just so linear. Part of what I loved about old Karma was that her mantra effects made her skills significantly different in application. You could choose to intensify your slow potential (A lot more meaningful in a league with much less mobility,) nuke, or heal allies/yourself, but what made that unique was that it didn't just swap her spell to another function or add to existing mechanics, it added a second mechanic on top of the base effect, which you had to make the best possible use of. Exactly how you wanted to impact a fight came down to the way you spent your mantras. Now you just throw out big RQs or force an engage/escape with RE.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Someone in another thread had an interesting idea to give Karma 3 different 'chants' to choose from at level 6 which will affect her mantra'd abilities, 1 for damage, CC and utility (general idea). This could translate into a new passive which could bring back a lot of the elements of old Karma depending on the 'chant' chosen at 6, for example; choosing the utility path means RQ can heal allies in the aoe radius, RW can tether allies for a new effect and RE could give a stronger/longer lasting shield and speed boost. Interested to hear your opinion on a new passive like this for Karma.

Warden Karma2 votes

Sorry for the late reply, quite busy lately.

While this Idea sound quite nice it leads to some problems:

  1. It would give Karma a similiar Passive like Kha or Viktor, meaning she would have a "mantra in a mantra" Mantra already gives you a choice like that but more actively than passively
  2. The outcome be too strong (overloaded kit) (It would be unfair to be a super poker AND healer right?)
  3. Also i think most will still favor any way of improving Q/Rq's Damage (thus most would take the Damage encahncement.

(Maybe something like Sona is getting when she Levels her Ult though?)

IxtaliKing2 votes

The idea is that she wouldn't benefit from all those effects in her kit at once, she would have a choice of what flavor her mantra is for that game; utility, CC or damage. For example:

Damage

RQ - Unchanged RW - Current (except nerf max snare duration to 2s) + Karma deals increased damage to tethered target. RE - Full original shield bomb nuke, no bonus shield.

Control

RQ - Aoe eruption damage swapped for a longer lasting and larger aoe slow zone. RW - W and RW are now on separate CDS (can't be cast on the same target twice within a short period) + current additional root values. RE - Deals low aoe damage and knocks back enemies a small distance from the target.

Utility

RQ - Heals allies in the aoe impact radius for a small amount on impact and a larger amount when the aoe erupts. The intial additional bonus damage is reduced, and eruption no longer damages. RW - Current + enemies stay revealed while snared + Can target allies for some new effect maybe? RE - Current shield values + scaling haste duration + full single target cc clense (allies around the target only have slows removed - real Defiance xD)

Maybe she could choose her path at the start of the match or at level 6, but to be clear - once she's committed to her choice that's it.

Warden Karma1 votes

The Problem with this is (aside from it might overload her Kit):

It would confuse Allies and enemies alike:

Karma used RE, so do I get Damage now or does she protect her allies? Is her RQ field now small or large?

It just leaves many clarity issues (and balance issues) So i would say that either giving her a choice to upgrade either Q,W, or E with an additional effect (think Kha/Vik) or give her Mantra somewhat a number buff to your current Abilities (maybe chooseable). Both variants have the Problems mentioned, more or less.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Any clarity issues can be addressed by assigning a color to her mantra indicator based on the path (kit) she has chosen, for example; Red for damage, Blue for control and Green for Utility. Perhaps I'm just unable to articulate the idea well enough. Was just a thought though, if any champ should have a choice between different actual kits it's Karma, since her fanbase is so split between her different iterations.

LaughingMan118 votes

As a Karma player, honestly I dont see any of the issues that you see currently with her, the reason why she doesnt have a piercing Q is the reason why they changed it from a cone to a skill shot in the first place, her damage was very oppressive for those who used it with any sort of proper placement. They would unfortunately have to nerf the damage if they would make it a piercing skill shot, so even though she could hit more units, it'd be at the cost of her damage.

Her W, like you said is pretty much fine as it is. I dont think the range is an issue, and her W is more of a survival tool than it is a set up for your Q. If you get Rylais and Liandrys with her W, it actually turns it into quite a significant damage dealing spell on its own, while providing safety and even health when necessary.

Karma's E actually used to give 60% movement speed back when she was first reworked, and her shield even after the rework originally did damage, but for much the same reason as her Q being changed to a skill shot vs a cone, her E got the MS nerf, and the damage removed because of how oppressive it could be to give at least 1 target a shield with 60% MS every few seconds. And on top of it, with it having a short cool down, you'd E them in without the mantra, a few seconds later, after your enemy has clustered around the meatbag you sent in, you E again with mantra and nuke for almost more than your Q on top of giving your team a mini Ascension in tandem with your Q to make sure the enemy doesnt escape.

Although you do have good points, Karma is the was she is now because of how she used to be, she isnt in a bad spot in my opinion because i still do well with her. Karma isn't a hardcore burst mage, she much closer to a pure utility mage. Focus on playing her around your team and carry from behind the scenes instead of the foreground.

Karbuncle4 votes

{quoted}

As a Karma player, honestly I dont see any of the issues that you see currently with her, the reason why she doesnt have a piercing Q is the reason why they changed it from a cone to a skill shot in the first place, her damage was very oppressive for those who used it with any sort of proper placement. They would unfortunately have to nerf the damage if they would make it a piercing skill shot, so even though she could hit more units, it'd be at the cost of her damage.

Her W, like you said is pretty much fine as it is. I dont think the range is an issue, and her W is more of a survival tool than it is a set up for your Q. If you get Rylais and Liandrys with her W, it actually turns it into quite a significant damage dealing spell on its own, while providing safety and even health when necessary.

Karma's E actually used to give 60% movement speed back when she was first reworked, and her shield even after the rework originally did damage, but for much the same reason as her Q being changed to a skill shot vs a cone, her E got the MS nerf, and the damage removed because of how oppressive it could be to give at least 1 target a shield with 60% MS every few seconds. And on top of it, with it having a short cool down, you'd E them in without the mantra, a few seconds later, after your enemy has clustered around the meatbag you sent in, you E again with mantra and nuke for almost more than your Q on top of giving your team a mini Ascension in tandem with your Q to make sure the enemy doesnt escape.

Although you do have good points, Karma is the was she is now because of how she used to be, she isnt in a bad spot in my opinion because i still do well with her. Karma isn't a hardcore burst mage, she much closer to a pure utility mage. Focus on playing her around your team and carry from behind the scenes instead of the foreground.

HOLY CRAP NO,NO AND NO.

Karma's poke damage is not more oppressive than any other pokemage that is all she is,unlike other mages if you're not fighting an idiot they just go b because Karma has no kill potential all she does is poke.

Her W is fine JUST NOW for the longest time it had a 16 second cooldown at level 1 and a .6 ap ratio for an ability with a very low success rate and the snare still isn't good because it only lasts 1 second while Lux can snare for 2 seconds at level 1

Karma's E DID NOT HAVE 60% MOVEMENT when she was first reworked it was only 20% and HAD TO BE BUFFED because it was so weak also her E DID NOT EXPLODE WITHOUT MANTRA WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU GETTING YOUR INFORMATION

Karma is the only support in the game to fall off late game,that's a huge problem when Ori Lux and Lulu get to be the same utility mage role,have better damage and/or CC,and still dont fall off late game

Also you're Bronze V where anything can be seen as OP

Here in Shiny Bronze ELO(Gold) and above no one is stupid enough to get hit by both parts of Mantra Q

"hurr durr Mantra Q does so much damage it can take 50% of a squishies health"

EVERY MAGE DOES A LOT OF DAMAGE WHEN THEY USE THEIR Q AND ULT

Karma's Mantra Q does 785 base and 1.5 AP ratio

Lux's Q and R(which procs her passive) does 914 base and 1.65 AP ratio

REDREX74 votes

Karma is pretty stronk from my experience in my games. Only buff I see is a damage component on her shield with an auto attack enhancer with like a small ap ratio. That way karma has a reason to auto attack.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

Honestly I don't really want karma picked since she's one of those champions I struggle fighting against

AquariusGine2 votes

I don't know what Karma's niche is

Hupsis2 votes

Didn't you post this same thread a week ago or so?

Passive is in ok state. Shields don't have to reduce the cd since normal q can already proc it on enemies almost as efficiently as mantra q. It also allows the shield to be as strong as it currently is. I do however think gathering fire could be moved to R itself to give room for a new passive.

Q being a skillshot that doesn't go through minions allows it to be strong. If it went through units its damage would have to be seriously nerfed.

W is ok. Although I'd like to see some kind of ally tether passive on Karma that allowed her to balance out her and her targets health bars every few minutes.

E is fine due to it already being the lowest cd shield in game.

Spoofghoul2 votes

I think q should be a linear passthrough skillshot similar to lulu or viktor laser with the RQ doing the same but being a wider missile and applyieng a heavier slow and leaving a trail behind that starts detonating/burning up along the same line the moment the original missile reaches its max range, keep the damage the same.

Secret Butt Fun2 votes

I play her both mid and support rather often and I don't really feel the issues you speak of.

Get a item 3027 , item 3116 , and item 3151 on her and that issue with mid range doesn't really become one anymore because she's so beefy and has her RW to heal it all back. After an item 3174 and item 3285 , she just becomes this unstoppable, oppressing machine gun with proper positioning and mechanics.

Karma thrives on being a utility poke mage with immense amounts of disengage. You'll never get to fight a good Karma against her terms as your forced out of lane constantly.

It's funny you mention Lux and Viktor and all that jazz and then say she's lost her identity when white washing her to fit the exact role as they do is doing precisely the opposite.

Her place is not among the 100-0 burst hyper mages but rather the beefcake, poke utility mages like Morgana Malzahar

SirShaggy1 votes

I do wish Riot would look into giving her another passive or something to set her more apart from Lulu. She's not bad by any means, but she's outclassed. I'd like to see them move her current passive onto her ult and give her a new passive. Something involving her auto-attacks since that also interacts with her ult so much. Maybe attack speed scaling with her CDR or something similar to spellblade or a sheen passive. Something to make it feel more rewarding to weave autos in and get up close with her. Plus it would help with her waveclear which is pretty bad compared to a lot of AP Carries. Might even make Iceborn Gauntlet Karma a thing, which a buddy of mine would love.

P3rro1 votes

Idea I had for Karma Changing Karma's Q to a skillshot that is piercing and AoE explosion at max range. Tack current Gathering Fire onto Mantra, in my honest opinion, it feels unengaging when all it does is reduce Mantra's CD. Push Karma back into her Lane Bully niche via new passive that promotes harrass. 5 Stacks and your next IF or FR is empowered. Change Mantra to be more of a short duration damage/utility buff as opposed to one spell buff per activation.

Inner Flame (Q) Fire a burst of energy, dealing 40/62/85/108/130(+30% AP) magic damage and slowing by 25% for 1.25 sec in a line. Explodes at max range dealing 2.1 times the damage.

Gathering Fire (Passive) Karma's basic attacks deal 8/12/18(+10% AP) magic damage per hit, stacking up to 5 times. At 5 Stacks, Karma gains Gathered Flame, granting her next (Q) Inner Flame or (W) Focused Resolve empowerment. Inner Flame does additional damage equal to 5 Stacks and slows by an additional 15%. Focused Resolve deploys 50% quicker and roots for .75 additional seconds. Gathering Fire cannot enhance an ability for another 10 seconds.

Transition Karma's Mantra from one buff to a spell to short buff ult that enhances all abilities. Mantra (R) Karma evokes true balance, enhancing her abilities for the next 5 seconds. (P) Gain 5 Stacks of Gathering Fire on activation. (Q) (a) Inner Flame doesn't trigger a cooldown? Or (b) Instead of slowing, Inner Flame steals X% speed on enemy champions? (W) Focused Resolve heals for 35% of Karma's health (E) Inspire shields her and nearby allies, granting them an empowered shield with 15% increased haste and lasts for an additional second.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

Throughout your post you refer to lux's W, but that's her Shield, You mean her E.

Other than that, as someone who mained Karma during S4 because of her incredible versatility, I agree with ALL of your points here.

Warden Karma1 votes

Ups, my bad I will correct that, thanks for the Support :)

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