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Lets be real here, Azir and Khalista are a huge fuck you to melee champs.

SeXyMuFfiNdaGoD··56 votes·5,484 views

Look I don't know how these characters create a healthy environment in league. These champs are jam packed with massive amounts of utility on top of mobility and the only trade off they have is being squishy which pretty much every dps champion is. I don't see what their real trade-offs are when they bring so much to a team. While I do like the fact that these champs make players want to be more creative with team-comps I don't see how these champions encourage diversity. Azir and Khalista force you into playing champs that counter them specifically.

While I do find these champs to be very creative with interesting and I don't see how they fit into the League environment. These champs remind me of Lee Sin in how they have everything you want in a champion with arbitrary trade-offs. I feel like these champions existing crowds out the other guys in League who are lagging behind. We talk about increasing diversity but how does a champ like Zac survive when Azir can just Ult and say fuck you to Zac, we can even go further and ask ourselves how does Olaf deal with Khalista when his only form of engage is Axe spam. I honestly don't know how one deals with these champs beside just outright catching them out of position and dunking on them which is every bodies weakness. Maybe someone can give me another side to this and explain to me how these champions can work in a healthy way that adds more depth to the game cause it just looks like powercreep to me.

87 Comments

junglerboy1617 votes

They just need to make it so he can't nuke turrets with his soldiers. That is quite literally the stupidest thing they put in his kit. He is AP, no other AP mage can drop a huge low cost low CD nuke on a turret, BECAUSE IT IS NOT HOW THEY WORK.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Yeah, honestly as someone who loves Azir, I thought for sure they'd nerf that first. At max level, you can deal upwards of 200 or 250 damage to a tower with one W. And it's not really a huge cost because you have 2 of them, and they're up again every 5 seconds.

EDIT: Also, the "nuke tower" is sometimes a bit buggy. There have been a few times I've been unable to summon a soldier near tower because it thought I wanted to nuke the tower, and vice-versa.

junglerboy162 votes

It is actually 80 (+25xlevel) (+60% AP) damage according to the Wiki, which is 530 (+60% AP) damage to turrets at level 18.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Yes, but that's not true damage. It is mitigated quite a bit by the tower's defenses, so I think the highest I remember seeing in-game was something like 340 damage?

Burungeru1 votes

{quoted}

They just need to make it so he can't nuke turrets with his soldiers. That is quite literally the stupidest thing they put in his kit. He is AP, no other AP mage can drop a huge low cost low CD nuke on a turret, BECAUSE IT IS NOT HOW THEY WORK.

TF? Ziggs? Nidalee?

junglerboy161 votes

Their tower damage is still connected to an auto attack, while azir can just pop a soldier onto it. His soldiers also deal a whole lot more damage than their auto attack modifiers

Burungeru1 votes

I mean, that's not entirely too different. Both versions of these things are primarily gated by a cooldown, the fact that they're tied to an autoattack doesn't really gate TF/Ziggs/Nidalee anymore than Azir is gated by his CD.

lojician1 votes

I think the idea was to let people replace adcs with him. Which is funny because they thought a team might ever not run an adc.

junglerboy161 votes

I've seen it happen, and wish I saw it more. Teams without an ADC have so much flexibility really, you just have to have a few champs that scale really hard into late game.

BakedLotion11 votes

only melee that could instaburst kalista AP Malphite ripdfg

Chaotic Reks1 votes

ever see AD Malphite? 2 ad items = gg

Feathermane11 votes

And let's be even more real, melee champions are not a homogeneous group. Talking about them in general terms makes no sense.

Cuz197213 votes

{quoted}

And let's be even more real, melee champions are not a homogeneous group. Talking about them in general terms makes no sense.

Exactly. I mean hell Zed is one of Azir's biggest counters.

YOU BEEN WARNED5 votes

Except Zed is broken as fk and doesn't deserve to be grouped with the "melee champion" attribute.

YOU BEEN WARNED6 votes

When you say Melee you normally mean a fighter, not some mega bursty guy like Zed & Fizz because they break most of the melee rules with their fucktons of gapclosers & untargetabilities.

When someone refers to a melee champion they tend to mean these guys: Aatrox Amumu Chogath Darius DrMundo Evelynn Galio Gangplank Garen Hecarim Mordekaiser Nasus Nautilus Nocturne Nunu Olaf Pantheon Poppy Rammus Renekton Rumble Sejuani Shaco Shen Shyvana Singed Sion Skarner Taric Trundle Tryndamere Udyr Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Yorick Zac

I hope the idea is clear.

SmokingPuffin9 votes

Kallista is indeed a giant middle finger.

Azir is easier to beat with a melee than a ranged.

AFLYINGTOILET6 votes

No they have high counterplay and aren't oppressive as fuck throughout the entire game ! kappa /s

B3ER6 votes

And Rito is wondering why people like this game less.

Cosmic Warper6 votes

Azir needs a range nerf on his Q and for his Q slow to not stack up with soldiers hit. Yeah his damage becomes huge late game, but if you position his soldiers incorrectly you should be punished for it instead of slowing the enemy team by a ton anyway so you can back off and position again for free.

AbsoluteSadman1 votes

imo q range is fine, q damage early game is absurd, stacking slow needs to be removed.

lojician5 votes

You're forgetting gnar :D

LeeDark2 votes

Gnar is ranged. For most of the time he is alive.

Stars Shaper4 votes

Mechanics that can't be countered by "turret play" (aka standing&shooting 'till kill-kingdom comes) are what this game needs to become interesting.

Ppl hated it on Yasuo (and still are) and now is Azir and Kalista turns while at least Azir has TONS of counterplay even from many melees.

ComeOnAndSlamJam6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BUduUeAN,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-02-02T10:58:48.636+0000)

Mechanics that can't be countered by "turret play" (aka standing&shooting 'till kill-kingdom comes) are what this game needs to become interesting.

Ppl hated it on Yasuo (and still are) and now is Azir and Kalista turns while at least Azir has TONS of counterplay even from many melees.

top kek

Cosmic Warper5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BUduUeAN,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-02-02T10:58:48.636+0000)

Mechanics that can't be countered by "turret play" (aka standing&shooting 'till kill-kingdom comes) are what this game needs to become interesting.

Ppl hated it on Yasuo (and still are) and now is Azir and Kalista turns while at least Azir has TONS of counterplay even from many melees.

Lol wat? Azir has counterplay?

Stars Shaper2 votes

A lot of it too. Connect brain cells to visualize.

Zmuecat3 votes

Is it something hard to explain? Cause I need help finding it.

This isn't a QQAZIRNERFNOW post, but if there's a secret I'm not seeing, I'd like to know.

Stars Shaper1 votes

Ranged champions don't have to think about anything since they can roflstomp him at will.

Melees have to be careful (ppl like Kata/Yasuo/Akali/Fizz(?) etc) because a well timed wall can fck them up but if he ever happens to misuse a charge (or just once he uses it expecially early game) you can jump on him and win the trade.

Zmuecat3 votes

...

That didn't explain a damn thing. My ranged champion play gets stomped, which is why I was asking for an explanation.

You should have just told me to get good, or not post.

Stars Shaper2 votes

You don't give any insight on the matter either. I'm no mind reader and I don't know which champion are you talking about, how does he stomp you, what is the main issue you find against him (unpokability, mana issues, farm problems, etc).

I told you which kind of champions have harder/easier time against him and if you have some brain capabilities you can come up with some hypothesis... if you want the meal on a silver plate this isn't the game for you.

Kitten of Evil4 votes

Azir is incredibly vulnerable to stuns, snares, fears, and other CCs. TF is a pain in the ass to lane against, Ziggs and Lux can easily outpoke him and Lux even brings a shield, Xerath and Syndra can stun him and generally poke him from far away. To beat him, you just have to be quick on your feet and make sure you're aware of your positioning because he can punish you if you're out of position.

He and Kalista are both pretty squishy to make up for their mobility, but while Kalista can kite for days, Azir can dash once, making him similar to such OP champions as Graves, Lucian, and Sejuani.

Azir can just Ult and say fuck you to Zac

This wouldn't be the first time someone's ult counteracts someone else's. Viktor can just ult and say fuck you to Kat. And Azir's ult is utility, not damage. 300 + 60% AP at level 16? Even Orianna at least has 300 + 70% AP. Unless you're right on top of Azir, it likely won't deal damage to you anyway. Kalista's ult is 100% pure utility. It deals no damage AT ALL.

lojician1 votes

Thing about azir is stupid high range and turrets that can zone you out as a melee. Coupled with mobility and disengage.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

The thing is, if you're getting poked down you will lose. That's standard for any midlaner. If you let Xerath or Lux poke you down from far away, you will lose. The correct response, counterintuitively, is to play somewhat aggressively and poke back. If you're afraid to go in, he has already won, because he sucks at close range. Honestly. As Azir, you do not want someone to be right on top of you, because to deal any damage, you have to stop moving and do your AA animation..

Which melee do you play in midlane who lacks a gap-closer?

lojician1 votes

I don't play any with a 850 range gapcloser. Anyways I'm not complaining so much as pointing out there's a legitimate reason many melee champions hate playing against him. Long range turrets that are much better at zoning you if you have to walk into the wave.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

My point was that this is true with literally every champion who can zone you from long range. Okay, Xerath and Lux don't have turrets. Lux can still zone you out by hovering an E over your minions as you're coming in to last hit. Xerath can fire his piercing skillshot, or his AOE slow if you're behind minions, or his stun when you're not behind minions. Or let's compare to Zyra, or Heimer. They both have similar "turrets", though Heimer's don't expire like Zyra's do, and Zyra and Heimer don't even have to stand still to command an attack.

Azir is just a slight twist on Orianna, Zyra, and Lux. His zones are temporary, but hit very hard if you stay inside them. As a result, he must either summon them on top of where you will be, or move them with a Q that has a several-second cooldown and which makes it hard for him to then dash out if he miscalculates (WQE is his best escape mechanism).

Zoning champions are designed to make it hard to last-hit, and to control zones of the lane. They are at their strongest when you're at range, or in their zones of control, and they win if you are afraid to go in. Their drawback is that every single one is very very squishy, and they all push the lane like crazy, making it easy for junglers to gank. They're also quite susceptible to gap-closers (why do you think assassins destroy Lux and Azir?)

AnOstrichWithPMS1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BUduUeAN,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-02-02T17:55:37.404+0000)

Azir is incredibly vulnerable to stuns, snares, fears, and other CCs. TF is a pain in the ass to lane against, Ziggs and Lux can easily outpoke him and Lux even brings a shield, Xerath and Syndra can stun him and generally poke him from far away. To beat him, you just have to be quick on your feet and make sure you're aware of your positioning because he can punish you if you're out of position.

He and Kalista are both pretty squishy to make up for their mobility, but while Kalista can kite for days, Azir can dash once, making him similar to such OP champions as Graves, Lucian, and Sejuani.

This wouldn't be the first time someone's ult counteracts someone else's. Viktor can just ult and say fuck you to Kat. And Azir's ult is utility, not damage. 300 + 60% AP at level 16? Even Orianna at least has 300 + 70% AP. Unless you're right on top of Azir, it likely won't deal damage to you anyway. Kalista's ult is 100% pure utility. It deals no damage AT ALL.

a better example would be syndras not-ult can counter heimer ult

Kitten of Evil1 votes

What's a Heimer?

(I'm kidding -- I just played as him... man does he fall off hard, especially against tanks. Why do turrets not proc Liandry's?)

AnOstrichWithPMS1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BUduUeAN,comment-id=000d00010000,timestamp=2015-02-02T21:01:19.960+0000)

What's a Heimer?

(I'm kidding -- I just played as him... man does he fall off hard, especially against tanks. Why do turrets not proc Liandry's?)

before his rework I used to play him as a 0/30/0 tank and wreck everything because his turrets did MR shred (the longer the fight the better the odds in your favor)

and turrets were weak to just adcs endgame, not everything in the entire game all game

Kitten of Evil2 votes

I miss old Heimer :(

Chaotic Reks4 votes

You don't know terror until you're a Nasus top against Kalista top... wither means nothing to her...

Junkο1 votes

Really? Nasus hard counters Kalista because her mobility is completely tied to her AS, yet Nasus applies a 5 second long huge AS debuff and you can easily just rush a Warden first item to completely shut her down.

Also you can farm her "wards" and she does not have an ultimate most of the time.

Chaotic Reks1 votes

it isn't really that simple. after that whole 5 seconds is up, i probably managed to land a q and an aa or 2 before she just flies away...

Tik1153 votes

I think the only thing Azir really needs is for his soldiers to not be able to AA a little bit after he uses his Q

I mean you already got punished for being hit by the Q but why should he also get a free AA in with them?

Kalista on the other hand......

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Kalista is also a huge fuck you to the Support player who has to put up with her R going off without warning.

Azir....is actually a lot easier to deal with as melee than ranged if only because of the selection of melee mids bypasses Azir's kit.

Orangesilk1 votes

Depends on the melee champions. Akali is pretty much immune to this. You jump away?, I gapclose again, was that a flash? I GAPCLOSE AGAIN.

A Slime Appears5 votes

You can't dash through Azir's wall, it just knocks you back when you hit it (at least, on every champ I've played). So it'd be like more like AKALI R BONK AKALI R BONK AKALI R BONK. Gonna need aspirin for that headache.

Champion Skin2 votes

Azir walls stops all dashes

Exceptions to this are dashes with CC immunity (generally ults) And blinks like summoner 4 flash and Ezeral E or Kassadin R

Edbwn1 votes

And Yasuo and Braum are a huge fuck you to ranged champs! :P

LaserDeathBlade4 votes

Yeah Yasuo soooo strong right now

/sarcasm

Edbwn1 votes

I'm not talking about how strong anyone is. Just pointing out that some champs are strong against different types of champs. Would you want to play as Udyr against Azir or Kalista? Hell no. Would you want to play as Miss Fortune against Yasuo or Braum? Probably not. No need to be an ass :/

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