He's already extremely mobile, does he really need 350 movespeed on top of that?
Kalista is extremely mobile and she's at 325, the slowest in-game movespeed (which she should be)
I just don't see the point.
EDIT : Perhaps Kalista may not be the best comparison, but she was one of the only cases I could think of in the "high mobility so low movespeed" department so it's why I chose her.
Jungled2 votesYou should give Lee credit for moving so well. He's blind after all.
Slamurai Jack2 votesMelee auto attackers need to have higher MS than other champions or they're non-functional. And Lee Sin isn't even that mobile. He has his ward hops (which he can only do every 12 seconds if he used a ward), and his Q which he needs to hit a skillshot first to even use. I'd call Lee slippery more than mobile; Master Yi ,Yasuo, Riven, and Kalista have far great sustained mobility in a teamfight, Lee just has his W that he can use to get out of being focused.
Gregor Gysi4 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNE691Zn,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-15T07:33:32.247+0000)
Melee auto attackers need to have higher MS than other champions or they're non-functional. And Lee Sin isn't even that mobile. He has his ward hops (which he can only do every 12 seconds if he used a ward), and his Q which he needs to hit a skillshot first to even use. I'd call Lee slippery more than mobile; Master Yi ,Yasuo, Riven, and Kalista have far great sustained mobility in a teamfight, Lee just has his W that he can use to get out of being focused.
wouldn't it be the exact opposite? Riven has theoretically less sustained mobility and less engage mobility, however she is quite slippery due to her short dashes.. Kalista is also more slippery in combat rather than having a high mobility on her own. Yasuo is the same.
Slamurai Jack2 votesLee has really good mobility to get into fights and pretty good mobility to get out of fights. His actual in fight mobility is rather low. A Lee that uses his ward hop to reach an enemy has a solid 12 seconds of no mobility whatsoever unless he can manage to hit his Q on someone that is where he wants to go and then follow up. This is also assuming he still has the energy to do this which he often doesn't. Riven, Yasuo, and Kalista all have spammable short range dashes that allow very high mobility in close quarters situations and in the case of Riven and Kalista, their mobility can be used in any direction at any time. There's a reason Lee Sin's build so tanky; despite all of his abilities, he's not particularly good at outplaying focus fire. Lee's ward hopping is really useful no question but he is left exceedingly vulnerable for a long period of time after doing so unless he uses it to escape. A Lee that ward hops into your team is now in the middle of your team with no escape.
Calling Lee Sin the king of mobility made sense when he first came out. But now? He's a champion with a strong early game that is really good at getting behind people later in the game and kicking them into your team. But that's all he really does. Lee Sin has strong bursts of mobility but his sustained mobility is rather low, which is why he's played mostly as a tanky initiator and far less as a carry.
Gregor Gysi5 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNE691Zn,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-10-15T09:43:54.456+0000)
Lee has pretty good mobility to get into fights
Lee's Q is basically Riven's QQQ+E just in faster. Just to set it into relation..
[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNE691Zn,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-10-15T09:43:54.456+0000) His actual in fight mobility is rather low.
If Riven would use QQQ+E then she'd have even less in fight mobility.
[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNE691Zn,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-10-15T09:43:54.456+0000)
This is also assuming he still has the energy to do this which he often doesn't. Riven, Yasuo, and Kalista all have spammable short range dashes that allow very high mobility in close quarters situations and in the case of Riven and Kalista, their mobility can be used in any direction at any time.
But in Rivens case she loses her damage if she uses QQQ to engage and her shield if she uses her E. That's far more commitment to engaging than Lee needs to do. Also if she were to engage Riven would have no escape - her Q has 13 seconds cooldown ('spammable') and her he 6 - which is 1 second lower than Lee's Q cooldown.
[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNE691Zn,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-10-15T09:43:54.456+0000)
Calling Lee Sin the king of mobility made sense when he first came out. But now? He's a champion with a strong early game that is really good at getting behind people later in the game and kicking them into your team. But that's all he really does. Lee Sin have strong bursts of mobility but his sustained mobility is rather low, which is why he's played mostly as a tanky initiator and far less as a carry.
Well as I said his sustained mobility (just moving from place a as far away as he can) is higher than Rivens - not even including his higher movementspeed. This is why if you want to call one champion slippery and the other one mobile you have to call Riven slippery due to being able to use a lot of small dashes but Lee Sin more mobile.
Slamurai Jack3 votesI would personally call Riven very slippery too. Yes, Riven's Q technically has a 13 seconds CD. But that CD starts on the first cast and when was the last time you didn't see a Riven with 40% CDR? That's before getting into her 3.6 second CD shield once she has that CDR.
I didn't exactly word it great the first time. Lee Sin has very high out of fight mobility and low mobility once he's actually in the thick of battle. He's really good at getting into fights and he's also strong at getting out of them if W is available, but his actual maneuverability once he's in fights is rather low. You aren't going to see a Lee dodging skillshots left and right in the middle of a teamfight like a Riven, Yasuo, or Kalista does and Lee has a hard time sticking to mobile enemies when compared to those 3 champions. Lee is like Renekton: Pretty solid at getting into or out of fights when his mobility spell is available but extremely easy to kite the moment that long CD spell is down.
That's why Lee has 350 MS; He honestly needs it. Not only is his in fight mobility not very good, but he also needs to auto constantly to keep his energy up, which obviously stops him from moving every time he attacks and requires him to close distance again after every auto. There's a reason Shyvana and Jax also have 350 MS while technically being pretty mobile. Auto reliant melee champions need to be slightly faster than their targets or they're worthless.
Gregor Gysi1 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNE691Zn,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-15T10:06:30.579+0000)
I would personally call Riven very slippery too. Yes, Riven's Q technically has a 13 seconds CD. But that CD starts on the first cast and when was the last time you didn't see a Riven with 40% CDR? That's before getting into her 3.6 second CD shield once she has that CDR.
Oh please, go and take a look at champion.gg. Lee Sin: http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin Most frequent runes + most frequent masteries + most frequent build: 10% warrior + 20% BC = 30%
Riven: http://champion.gg/champion/Riven Most frequent runes + most frequent masteries + most frequent build: 5% masteries + 10% ghostblade + 15% boots = 25%
Could we just ignore it pls?
Also: maneuverability is something I would consider slippery. Thus Lee Sin is not slippery but rather highly mobile.
Madra1 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNE691Zn,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-15T07:33:32.247+0000)
Melee auto attackers need to have higher MS than other champions or they're non-functional. And Lee Sin isn't even that mobile. He has his ward hops (which he can only do every 12 seconds if he used a ward), and his Q which he needs to hit a skillshot first to even use. I'd call Lee slippery more than mobile; Master Yi ,Yasuo, Riven, and Kalista have far great sustained mobility in a teamfight, Lee just has his W that he can use to get out of being focused.
The day that Lee Sin can be considered "not mobile" is the day that LoL really jumps the shark.
Slamurai Jack1 votesI would argue that Lee is very mobile from a playmaking standpoint and not so much from a combat standpoint. Lee Sin is similar to Hecarim and Jarvan in that respect. They're really good at getting into fights but they can be kited and held down fairly easily once they're in the fight.
I would argue that champions like Riven, Yasuo, and Zed are the opposite. None of them can really make plays and often have a hard time getting into fights safely but have unparalleled mobility, elusiveness, and chasing power once they've gotten into the fight.
dEAdbUs2 votesCan we delete Lee from game? Lee is one of the best junglers 3 seasons in a row. And again on Worlds. Lee is unbalanced and toxic. Mb designers think he good, but he's so damn annoying.
CPU BIanc2 votessona has 325 with no real movement speed move other than her trash purple aura
Atuko2 votes[{quoted}](name=LZ Emperor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNE691Zn,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-10-15T18:13:58.945+0000)
sona has 325 with no real movement speed move other than her trash purple aura
This is correct.
1000angrybees1 votesit's only good late game with like 300+ AP lmao that's just so sad that she's in that tier honestly
Kitten of Evil1 votesHey, you get 1% movespeed per level in E. BE GRATEFUL. That's 3.2 whole movement speed!
Squidblimp1 votesIt gets pretty good late game if you build AP, since you can move everywhere pretty fast. However, if you don't have much AP, it really is trash.
Kitten of Evil1 votesEven so, the level scaling is trash. Regardless of your AP, you get 1% move speed per level you put in it. It's a good thing it doesn't cost any more mana or I'd just never level it up.
Squidblimp1 votesYeah, true that.
Lady Hammerlock1 votesi made a post about this to
FistOfSharkiesha1 votesMarksman all have very low movement speed, so Kalista isn't the best example. Most fighters are somewhat mobile with a gap closer simply because they're melee range fighters. Whether Lee needs an MS nerf or not is up for debate, but your argument just lacks any ground to stand on.
If anything what Lee needs is a cooldown on his ward/ally dash after using his Q dash so he can't tower dive a half health enemy at level 2, get the kill, and dash away before the braindead turret targets him.
viken1 voteshis high base MS is PART of his mobility. Zed, yasuo, riven, etc all have at least 340 movespeed, its just what they get for being melee. Kalista has 325 because every other ADC has 325.
dEAdbUs1 votesAll broken champs xD
Riven usually flash on ADC's head. Yasuo jump with his ult, Zed too.
RainbowIcee1 votesriven does burst damage though and stuns and has a ranged ult aoe massive damage wave on top of her ad scaling dash.
Carry1 votesI'm all for hitting the parts of Lee's kits that annoy you guys, however, you've gotta recognize that he's a weak champion atm even if you think he's frustrating.
If you want to take away from his mobility, you should give back to his teamfighting (id suggest give some strength to his E when used well on many champions in a teamfight, or some defensive steroid on his W that function in a wukongesque way).
MegamanEXE791 votesJust give braum the ward hop.
It's the same exact move
That's the only thing that annoys me at this point.
Takethehelm1 votesFuck you. Have some #LcsBigPlays.
DrugsForRobots1 votesI'm curious to know what would you give Lee to compensate? If I would see Lee's movement speed lowered, I would like to see his utility increased somehow. Or better yet, have other champions receive QoL buffs that include little utility quirks in their abilities. Like having Eve's W interact with True Sight in some way. Among other things. I hope the upcoming 'Marksman Update' moves Kali and the oher marksmen in such a direction.
Riot keeps shifting numbers around but I think issues with balancing may be more deeply rooted in how the champs' abilities specifically function.
Flash Nova1 votesalso don't forget -3 AD, solves most problems amirite