When Diana came out, what role did Riot want her to do?

19 19 19·Jan 12, 2015·3 votes·747 views

Top? Jungle? Mid?

21 Comments

SmokingPuffinJan 12, 20154 votes

Riot intended her to be a jungler. They wanted her to clear fast and not gank much until 6, because at the time every jungler was an early ganker and they were hoping to push a different playstyle.

Turns out that the community figured out that getting to 6 was faster in the solo lane, and then she got played as more of an assassin mid thing. Their initial vision of what DIana would do was incompatible with the jungle of the time, but it took a long time to figure out how to repair that.

Now that we have the season 5 jungle, Diana is pretty much doing what she was intended to do. Unfortunately, Riot now regrets all of their fighter/assassin hybrid designs, so she's in that "intentionally undertuned until rework" category of champions. You can still play her and do acceptably well, but it's pretty clear you're doing it wrong.

Chromatic EagleJan 13, 20152 votes

When did they say they regretted fighter/assassin hybrids?

SmokingPuffinJan 13, 20154 votes

Here's a big Diana discussion that happened a while back. It doesn't have make the general case that fighter/assassin = unhealthy, which I seem to remember came out around Rengar rework time, but it has tons of excellent Diana content and is highly worth reading.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=44777595#44777595

Here are some money quotes from Vesh:

(quoted by Vesh) *This is because she has a fighter/assassin design and you guys don't like shields on assassins or burst damage on fighters. You have accidentally given her too much durabilty during the situations where she gets a full shield off which makes her feel unfair to play against even though one crit will probably eat her shield assuming she gets it off and doesn't have to use hourglass immediately or get hit with some form of CC. *

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much.

...

An AP shield isn't inherently problematic. It's a problem if she has an assassin pattern though, because it undermines the decisions she has to make. If she builds straight AP, she simultaneously can instant kill someone while also being incredibly tanky -after the fact-. When Diana is ahead there's literally no clear window in which to fight her, especially since the duration of the shield is pretty long when it matters most (when she's already on top of you from a targeted dash).

...

A core defining feature of a good assassin is having a way "out" if they succeed. Diana has an all in pattern where she either dies or gets the kill. If she lives past that point it's because shes impossible to kill with her W up, not because she did anything skillfull to juke the enemy team or escape in a way that's interactive. This is one of (but not the only) problem with making Diana a straight up assassin. The other problem is that her assassin pattern only has one place of interaction (dodging the Q) and if she hits it she just presses R twice.

Now, this is a pretty sad story for me, because this thread is a year old now and nothing has happened with Diana. There's some cognitive dissonance here for Riot. The character fluff really wants Diana to dive in and fight until she dies or they do; she's not big on the escaping thing. Also, it would be cool if Diana were the anti-Leona, which means she should be assassiny and not tanky. However, mechanically her stuff works better as a fighter; in particular her QRR play pattern is quite Talon-ish when she has the burst to delete people.

I can only say "Riot plz" because Diana is the best character (and login screen) they've ever made and leaving her in the state she's in for so long is like Olaf levels of painful for me.

Chromatic EagleJan 13, 20152 votes

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much.

pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much.

good at way too much.

LeeSin

SmokingPuffinJan 13, 20154 votes

There's no question that Lee is the poster child for why fighter/assassin is a problematic hybrid.

He's allowed to be an exception to the design principles because he's too cool.

Subject 5Jan 13, 20151 votes

Muh Lc$ Plais thQQ

JevelFaithfulJan 13, 20151 votes

To be fair, he at least doesn't insta-burst you down with point'n'click skills (and pbaoe) while tanking. Contrary to pre-nerf!Diana.

Yeah he's still overtuned.

JevelFaithfulJan 13, 20151 votes

Just a note, they originally showcased her as jungle. But I'm pretty sure her spotlight mentions she could also work in mid lane.

Made for jungle, working laner from the start.

xLegendary TrollJan 12, 20152 votes

jungle. Her clear time was faster than Jax's at the time. I used to hit level 4 at the 3:45 mark.

Drunk RummateJan 12, 20152 votes

already been said. designed as a jungler, failed because jungling is all about early game gank presence. still fails for the same reason.

ZahzJan 12, 20152 votes

She doesnt fail at all in the jungle. The jungles changed a lot and you dont have to gank pre 6 at all anymore and still be fine

OrbvJan 12, 20151 votes

It was always to jungle.

19 19 19Jan 12, 20151 votes

the only lane she's capable of doing is jungle?

OrbvJan 12, 20153 votes

She's actually mutually suited for Mid and Jungle now because they nerfed her ratios a bit. But originally her ult and crescent had more range, her ult had maybe 50% more range than it has now. You would be able to ult someone from about half a screen away. And her shield did more damage. She was like the jungler that would always seem to get to you if you were visible, and she would take turret hits until you were dead. Now only Lee Sin and Vi can do that.

Done25Jan 12, 20151 votes

She's supposed to be an AP Fighter with a slippery assassin playstyle like Fizz. Jump in with R, get your kill(s), then jump back out with R again before the heavier Fighters like Udyr get their hands around your neck.

19 19 19Jan 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

She's supposed to be an AP Fighter with a slippery assassin playstyle like Fizz. Jump in with R, get your kill(s), then jump back out with R again before the heavier Fighters like Udyr get their hands around your neck.

she can't escape with R o_O how df can she escape with R if her ult only targets enemies?

Done25Jan 12, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Deceiver,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEsQ1vHj,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-01-12T21:58:18.873+0000)

she can't escape with R o_O how df can she escape with R if her ult only targets enemies?

Minions, jungle monsters, a squishy who got separated from the team, etc.

Subject 5Jan 13, 20151 votes

Are any of those supposed to actually be a realistic escape? O_O

JevelFaithfulJan 13, 20152 votes

Escape might be too big of a term. But if you hard engage, those in the team that are still alive will scatter and you can escape to them. Otherwise, if you Dash to the squishy backline, you can dash again back to the front line.

Realistically, it's not as much an escape as a way to dance around the teamfight (and out of the worst of the melee) if need be.

Done25Jan 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEsQ1vHj,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-13T03:54:16.108+0000)

Are any of those supposed to actually be a realistic escape? O_O

Yes?

Never see Lee Sin QQ over a jungle wall? It's the same thing as that.