Where is Garen's downside?

OneLuckyBug·10/23/2015, 5:54:23 PM·3 votes·683 views

I can't figure it out - Pushing him out of lane is practically impossible. If he takes damage, he'll just hang out for a few seconds to get back to full health in no time. His kit allows him to build tanky as hell, so focusing him is a waste of time; yet, he has an ult that does 1k damage TRUE damage...TRUE DAMAGE!!! ....his movement speed makes it impossible to escape (let's not forget the added deadman's plate)...there's no trading with him...none. Riot, what is your reasoning for this champ? Isn't a champ supposed to lack certain features while being strong in others? These new "juggernaut" champs make it impossible to choose any champ over the others. Ever since their release, it seems like EVERY game now has a Garen, Morde, or Darius...every one. Although, I can't blame people for riding the OP wave....

7 Comments

NemeBro10/23/2015, 5:58:22 PM4 votes

{quoted}

I can't figure it out - Pushing him out of lane is practically impossible. If he takes damage, he'll just hang out for a few seconds to get back to full health in no time. His kit allows him to build tanky as hell, so focusing him is a waste of time; yet, he has an ult that does 1k damage TRUE damage...TRUE DAMAGE!!! ....his movement speed makes it impossible to escape (let's not forget the added deadman's plate)...there's no trading with him...none. Riot, what is your reasoning for this champ? Isn't a champ supposed to lack certain features while being strong in others? These new "juggernaut" champs make it impossible to choose any champ over the others. Ever since their release, it seems like EVERY game now has a Garen, Morde, or Darius...every one. Although, I can't blame people for riding the OP wave....

His healing through his passive isn't super strong early on so he can be harassed out of lane, his ult only does true damage against one person (and probably only that much if his opponent is low), his base movement speed is low for a fighter and his movement speed buff isn't nearly as strong as an actual blink or dash (DMP helps though), and you trade with him by doing quick trades, ideally from range. Garen excels at extended trades.

Also, I doubt every game has Garen ,Morde, or Darius in them, considering all three are permabanned. Of the three, only Mordekaiser is really OP.

Garen is good at punishing mistakes you don't even know you're making. Step out of position once and a good Garen will chunk you. Stay under turret while really low and Garen isn't? He's going to dive and kill you.

Maximum Morde10/23/2015, 5:56:47 PM4 votes

His lover is his sister. That's a pretty big downside unless you are from Alabama.

redniwediS10/23/2015, 6:10:31 PM3 votes

If you want to push him out of lane pick someone who can actually do that, like Jayce, Ryze, or Rumble.

His early game regeneration is nothing to write home about, his early game damage was nerfed, his kit no longer gives him crazy late game defenses and instead gives rather mediocre early game defenses, and his movement speed was nerfed because of dead man's plate.

So please tell me, are you actually interested in getting help as your title would suggest, or are you just here to QQ about not knowing something you should be capable of learning?

Mecha MaIphite10/23/2015, 6:28:03 PM3 votes

If Garen gets to your carries with a slow removal and a measly MS buff, it's because your tanks are drunk, or you have no tanks.

Bharhash10/23/2015, 6:51:36 PM2 votes

{quoted}

I can't figure it out - Pushing him out of lane is practically impossible. If he takes damage, he'll just hang out for a few seconds to get back to full health in no time. His kit allows him to build tanky as hell, so focusing him is a waste of time; yet, he has an ult that does 1k damage TRUE damage...TRUE DAMAGE!!! ....his movement speed makes it impossible to escape (let's not forget the added deadman's plate)...there's no trading with him...none. Riot, what is your reasoning for this champ? Isn't a champ supposed to lack certain features while being strong in others? These new "juggernaut" champs make it impossible to choose any champ over the others. Ever since their release, it seems like EVERY game now has a Garen, Morde, or Darius...every one. Although, I can't blame people for riding the OP wave....

Alright, let's break this down.

Healing - Late game, especially if he picks up a Warmogs, he will regen at at a frightening rate. If you fail to kill him, he can very quickly come back for Round 2. However, Garen's Passive upgrades at 11 and 16 to increase the amount of health regen'd. It's down for 9 seconds between levels 1 and 10 for taking any non-minion damage. At 11, it comes down to 6 and doesn't reset for non-epic monsters (Aka Jungle camps). So until his passive gives a little extra regen before 11, but nothing stellar. And between 11 and 16, it only gives slightly more and comes back up slightly faster. It doesn't really become a big deal until 16.

Now I will say that Riot could probably tune his passive to simply give better regen with time and keep the non-epic monster clause at 11, but leave the timer at 9 seconds at all levels. But let's move on.

Kit allows him to build tanky as hell - Nothing in his kit allows him to build tanky. Literally any champ can build tanky. Now, if you mean to imply that he can build tanky and still do incredible amounts of damage, then you'd be wrong. Garen cannot rely on base stats to do meaningful damage to his targets, particularly in the mid to late game. He needs at least two damage items to keep going. He is a Juggernaut; his design philosophy is meant to evoke the idea of an unstoppable force. He will run at the enemy until they die or he dies. This means he's gonna build tanky with some damage built in.

True damage ult - First off, his ult only deals true damage if you're the villain. "But 1K true damage is OP!" I can already hear you scream. Well let's see what it takes to his that number. At Rank 1, it deals 175 base damage + 28.6% of the target's missing health. So in order to hit 1K true damage at this rank, you have to be missing just shy of 3000 health. At Rank 2 this becomes 350 base + 33%, so you have to be missing 2000 health. At Rank 3, it's 525 base + 40%, so 1200 missing. And this all still assumes that you're the villain. If you're not, then magic resist is gonna kick the damage in the balls.

Move speed - Garen's move speed is 340. His Q gives him a small MS buff for 1.5 to 3.5 seconds, depending on the rank. Now, I hate people who conflate an item's power with a champs, but let's just say that Garen picks it up. So if he's not attacking and just running, he can get going a good speed. But that all presupposes he's not attacking and he has his Q active. And note that this is just MS increasing. Garen does not have a dash, blink, gap-closer. He has to run every step to get to you.

Trading - Did you know that Garen loves to spin on isolated targets? He does.

Now let's evaluate your statement of riding the OP wave and no trades and just get rid of them. Off the top of my head, I can think of several champions that will wreck Garen's game.

Jayce - This guy is almost literally built to make Garen cry like a little girl. Jayce's melee E is a knockback + %Max HP damage + 1.0 bonus AD scaling. Riot might as well call this one the Nutcracker, cause it hits Garen right in the dick. His melee Q is an AoE slow and 1.0 bonus AD scaling. Just in melee form, Jayce can and does smack Garen around and call him Sally all day. But then there's his cannon. Just switching over to it allows Jayce to knock off 10 - 25% of Garen's armor and mr. Seriously, Jayce is THE man to break Garen in two.

Kennen - This little rat bastard laughs at Garen. With his ranged attacks and abilities, Kennen need never get close to Garen. He has his own MS buff, so he can outrun Garen anytime the Demacian gets cocky and can outright stun him to hold him in place and do a lot of damage. Oh, and Kennen's MS buff also gives him bonus armor and mr while active. And hey, Deadman's plate gives armor, not magic resist so Kennen's largely AP kit is going to cut right through Garen.

Gnar - Another rat who laughs at Garen. For a lot of the same, or slightly varied, reasons as above, Gnar just doesn't care about Garen and can basically never be touched while constantly pecking Garen's eyes out. Oh, and if he does come close? Mega Gnar would like a word.

Seriously, Garen is far from overpowered or broken. He has a lot of meaningful weaknesses and is a champion who can very easily be countered. If you're first pick and grab the Demacian, be prepared to have a very, very bad game because there are a lot of champions who can make his life hell. And none of what I said above assumes any participation from your jungler. If they're getting in on the mix, it gets even worse for Garen. He's a champion who thinks all about getting TO the enemy. He doesn't have a whole lot in his kit to get AWAY, so if you've got CC then he's gonna have any even worse time.

Matezoide10/23/2015, 6:38:56 PM2 votes

Can we stop pretending Garen's sustain before level 11 is good?

Grashnim10/23/2015, 6:23:40 PM1 votes

Garen is probably the most annoying champion in the game. Constantly screaming, that's his major downside.