Actually, they are being paid to destroy the game at the moment, which is worse.
Why is LoL turning into a mobile MOBA game where matches last 10-15 minutes? Whose idea was it to make baron and elder buffs 100x stronger? Why is damage creep going out of control? Why aren't zeal items being hotfixed? (they are too cheap).
I don't get it. The Live Balance Team is a charity case. They're paid 6 figures to turn the game I once loved into shit.
Colte51 votesremember when people complained that towers were too weak then they made towers even worse by buffing baron, banner and elder? Why!?
[sg-janna]
Bob the Toastr7 votesThere's a very minor "buff" to turrets on the PBE right now. Red buff no longer applies. That being said, towers are way too weak. They're too easy to kill and they don't do enough damage. It's so easy to dive right now. Honestly they should make it so the tower instantly fires an extra shot at you if you hit someone under turret that way you can't hit them and get out without getting hit.
Helmight8 votesRemember when professional teams literally couldn't end games even with the supposedly game-ending Baron/Elder buffs because of how strong waveclear is? Something had to give in order to make those buffs actually feel somewhat relevant.
And in the lategame - where you'll be getting Baron/Elder buffs, towers should be weak. That's the point of the game where they no longer defend you and you defend them. That's how the game is structured.
Pierce The Veal3 votesThose games were fun.
Everybody’s fucking sick of this game being a viewing sport. People want to play the game and enjoy it, not fucking view it.
Helmight3 votesThose games weren't fun, in my opinion. What else are you supposed to do when you have Baron and Elder and still can't end a game due to waveclear? That doesn't make these so-called epic buffs feel very epic, and it meant that games dragged on for another twenty minutes of pure waveclearing.
The change hardly had any effect on the playability of League for the average joe. Baron was still a game-ender in soloqueue even before the buffs - all that changed was that people realized Banner of Command isn't a troll item anymore. I understand that you're upset with the state of things, but I don't think that increasing the strength of Baron buff was that big of a deal.
FurriesAreHot34 votesDo you think they have a team of workers sitting in their office not doing anything? Not playtesting or brainstorming ideas to change the game without breaking it? Game Design isn't simple, and balance isn't black and white. Sure, they aren't doing a fantastic job right now. But they're communicating with the boards more and being more careful with their steps.
OnanThaMan13 votesDo you think they have a team of workers sitting in their office not doing anything? Not playtesting or brainstorming ideas to change the game without breaking it? Game Design isn't simple, and balance isn't black and white. Sure, they aren't doing a fantastic job right now. But they're communicating with the boards more and being more careful with their steps.
I will admit the communication is nice, but it's debatable that they are being careful.
Riotplaytestpenguin33 votesThe hard thing about knowing how careful we're being is that when we're being careful, you guys don't see that unless they happen to be changes that are on PBE and are repeatedly pulled or changed. I'm not saying we don't make mistakes -- that is obviously incorrect, but many things that ship on a given patch cycle have actually been iterated on for a long time internally to attempt to avoid mishaps.
there are many, many changes that we test internally that don't go very far.
HalcyonDweller8 votesI'm sure it is hard to do all that and then have to deal with posts like the one this thread is under.
We appreciate the hard work you folks do, even if it doesn't turn out perfect every time. Heck, most of the time things turn out okay, it's just that the problems tend to be really obvious afterwards because of the nature of things, much like a sore thumb. At least some of us understand that it's complicated, and that mistakes are human.
ohn0se5 votesI'm sure it is hard to do all that and then have to deal with posts like the one this thread is under.
We appreciate the hard work you folks do, even if it doesn't turn out perfect every time. Heck, most of the time things turn out okay, it's just that the problems tend to be really obvious afterwards because of the nature of things, much like a sore thumb. At least some of us understand that it's complicated, and that mistakes are human.
"Hard work" they do? The balance team? Any other industry and I guarantee they get fired within weeks/days. The fact that this incompetent group has remained employed is beyond reproach. Disgusting and sad.
HalcyonDweller9 votesWhen you have worked in or shadowed the same job with the same responsibilities, then I will consider what you think of it it to be informed.
Until then though, your opinion is uninformed, inaccurate, and just plain rude. Chill out dude, they're humans the same as you and I.
Tik11513 votesit is appreciated that you don't just push updates out willy nilly but the issue I feel is that when mistakes go through they are often collosal which is why people have the "lulz balence team don't know how to balence" comes through
I'll just make a few examples
Zoe: This entire champion was so overbearing that you guys had to gut her, this has only been the case with Kalista and Aatrox if memory serves but Zoe has been gutted faster then them, good on you for for doing it so quick but...why did it even start there?
Ornn: W changed to % Max from % current and the apprent refusal to revert it, This is what made Ornn so broken, the % health change yet you instead took out his unstoppable, surly a revert like you did Rengars Q and Kogs everything would of sufficed?
Conqurer (this one more of my opinion then an outright fact since the keystone is still new): The abuse cases, the Darius and Jax, one which will ether result in the keystone getting gutted or the champs which abuse it getting nerfed to the ground (or both) again its a case of why did it start that way?
The thing is with this mistakes that I personally want to know is in these cases where is the failure point? is it internal playtests misjudging or it seeming OK because of the naturally small pool of testers? or PBE with lack of feedback or wild inaccuracies in skill?
Riotplaytestpenguin15 votesZoe isn't really gutted IMO. She's low winrate, but that's to be expected of a streaky character with high highs and incredibly low lows. We knew release tuning for her was going to be incredibly difficult, as she was developed with pretty much all of runes reforged being constantly iterated at the same time. LeBlanc prior to her rework had pretty similar solo queue winrates, and she was certainly a powerful champion. Not trying to make an excuse here -- I was the main playtester on Zoe, and the biggest mistake in retrospect from my end was not fully utilizing the power of QQR as a combo. It allowed her to trivialize a lot of her gameplay, and is probably my biggest testing regret of anything I've ever flubbed in the 2 years I've been here as IMO if we caught that before shipping we would have likely been able to stop a huge amount of player frustration.
Ornn: He's not broken on live now, so I don't personally have any problems with the routes we took (but internally I'm in the camp of revert W unstoppability and nerf his W damage)
Conqueror: The rune looks to have landed in a pretty-much-fine state. Personally think Rageblade was the big outlier this patch more than Conqueror, and if Darius is OP we'll just nerf Darius. We accepted that as a risk to make top lane a more enjoyable lane for a certain subclass of players who were underserved, and personally I'd make that sacrifice 10 out of 10 times if I lived in some world where I got to make all the decisions :P
The thing is with this mistakes that I personally want to know is in these cases where is the failure point? is it internal playtests misjudging or it seeming OK because of the naturally small pool of testers? or PBE with lack of feedback or wild inaccuracies in skill?
Personally think low sample is the biggest culprit. We work on a very limited amount of bandwidth and a small team. I've been working pretty hard to interview and get more playtesters.
DrLuau2 votesConqueror: The rune looks to have landed in a pretty-much-fine state. Personally think Rageblade was the big outlier this patch more than Conqueror, and if Darius is OP we'll just nerf Darius. We accepted that as a risk to make top lane a more enjoyable lane for a certain subclass of players who were underserved, and personally I'd make that sacrifice 10 out of 10 times if I lived in some world where I got to make all the decisions :P
Personally think low sample is the biggest culprit. We work on a very limited amount of bandwidth and a small team. I've been working pretty hard to interview and get more playtesters.
Conqueror isn't even good on a lot of top laners. Darius and Jax are kind of the consistent users of the keystone in top, and I suspect it's because they can effectively 2v1. You give up too much lane control to keep it active which is a free invitation to get your lane frozen or camped by a jungler. It's completely awful on Renekton, who if anyone should be good with it, it should be Renekton. If the design intent for Conqueror was to make a general-purpose fighter keystone, the balance team goofed really badly. I suspect that the design intent for Conqueror is closer to "tank meta must never happen again"
Tik1152 votesI appreciate the clarity with things like that, its nice to see the mindset of things in the playtest place (Even If I am one of the harsher/snarky people when it comes to your choices of balancing (Had Maple Nectar get irritated at one of my snarky comments) It is nice to see the mindset to try and clear the fog)
With the whole low sample, isn't that what the PBE is for? to aid in a bigger sample size due to the limits of the playtest team? (inb4 'PBE is just a skin showcase' joke)
Riotplaytestpenguin4 votesThe PBE isn't a great place for balance reads. There's larger MMR disparity in PBE games compared to playtest internal games, and playtest's internal games already have a bigger skill spread than most live server ranked games (we have people from ~d5 - challenger on our team)
Tykenn1 votesI find it odd that Zoe's Q-Q-R combo was a mistake in your eyes, when I look back to my first few times playing Zoe, and doing that old Q-Q-R combo, I instantly fell in love with her kit. It was so flowy and it felt good when you landed a **long ** ranged Q. It made you feel like a sniper lining up a shot, considering that from casting to champion hit was about 3-4 seconds of movement prediction.
Hey! I'm not sure if you could try this, but it would be neat if you play tested the current Zoe but reverted her Q-Q-R combo. At the time, I felt like it was the rest of her kit that was problematic and not necessarily the Q and R interaction itself.
Riotplaytestpenguin4 votesThe problem with QQR is that it undid a lot of the work that we did specifically to make playing against Zoe different than old nidalee --ideally, when she QRQ'd, she would give the enemy some time to react and start to dodge. Part of what made Zoe hard to play in that model is that you would both understand what was happening and both try to dodge/predict her skillshot. It hurt her reliability, essentially. QQR is basically a 1-sided skillcheck where Zoe has to aim/lead it properly. Targets didn't have sufficient time to dodge or react, and that's why we changed it.
Nefas1 votesThat’s still how Zoe lanes feel to me. I don’t feel like I have any agency in the lane at all.
Riotplaytestpenguin6 votesWhat champions do you play? I don't think Zoe's lane is too hard to play against if you take cleanse and utilize it properly. Could probably give you some tips. She also is generally a snowball character now who clears waves fairly slowly, so just going even in the laning phase generally means you're winning the scaling battle.
Nefas1 votesA lot of mostly mid range mages. Viktor, Malzahar, Swain.
I just generally feel like I’m on my back foot the entire time. I’m going to get shoved in because she can clear the wave much faster with far lower cd’s and mana costs all while having better damage. I can’t go in on her because I get a sleep to the face since the hit box is big and travels fast. Even if I do, she always has enough defensive tools to mitigate most of the damage or burst me so far down that I’m the one who has to back. It’s really easier for her to force me into a very early bad back as well, which especially hurts on Viktor.
Riotplaytestpenguin2 votesMalzahar is quite good against her from my experience -- your voidlings eat a lot of her damage throughout teamfights. I'd say try running Spellbook on Malzahar and looking to scale. Your 1v1 is inevitably worse, but your contribution as the game progresses should be significantly higher assuming you play the mid/late game well.
cocacolalips1 votesNot trying to make an excuse here -- I was the main playtester on Zoe, and the biggest mistake in retrospect from my end was not fully utilizing the power of QQR as a combo. It allowed her to trivialize a lot of her gameplay
so, are there any plans to change that interaction?
Riotplaytestpenguin3 votesWe did change a lot of it. It's no longer as unfair as it used to be (she can't QQR at max distance, Q does a lot less damage) and I'm of the opinion that Zoe is pretty fine now.
LankPants2 votesI'd argue she's still a very poorly designed champion who's terrible to play VS if she gets even the slightest lead and feels garbage when she's even the slightest bit behind. The champ has some serious design flaws that go well beyond that combo IMO.
cocacolalips1 votesGotcha.
do you think Zoe would be different if you caught that interaction during development? (as in, your team would have made different changes)
I watched that livestream about Zoe with you, CertainlyT and Gentleman Gustaf I think? do you have any plan to make more of those videos personally if the opportunity rises? any timeline maybe?
Riotplaytestpenguin3 votesWe'd probably have nerfed Q damage and balanced around it accordingly, similar to what we did eventually do.
I don't have any say in that kind of thing. If you enjoyed that video/stream, make sure to let Gentleman Gustaf know as the comms bros or publishing teams setup most of that stuff I believe.
Poop Jelly2 votesCan't speak for other 2 points but Zoe is fine. I play her both Mid and Support and she performs well, at least if I don't continuously missing my skillshots.
Telephone Booth2 votesit is appreciated that you don't just push updates out willy nilly but the issue I feel is that when mistakes go through they are often collosal which is why people have the "lulz balence team don't know how to balence" comes through
I'll just make a few examples
Zoe: This entire champion was so overbearing that you guys had to gut her, this has only been the case with Kalista and Aatrox if memory serves but Zoe has been gutted faster then them, good on you for for doing it so quick but...why did it even start there?
Ornn: W changed to % Max from % current and the apprent refusal to revert it, This is what made Ornn so broken, the % health change yet you instead took out his unstoppable, surly a revert like you did Rengars Q and Kogs everything would of sufficed?
Conqurer (this one more of my opinion then an outright fact since the keystone is still new): The abuse cases, the Darius and Jax, one which will ether result in the keystone getting gutted or the champs which abuse it getting nerfed to the ground (or both) again its a case of why did it start that way?
The thing is with this mistakes that I personally want to know is in these cases where is the failure point? is it internal playtests misjudging or it seeming OK because of the naturally small pool of testers? or PBE with lack of feedback or wild inaccuracies in skill?
Every single game ive played has the "lulz balance team doesn't know how to balance"
Carnicore2 votesI really like what you've been doing with Rengar, Ahri, Rageblade, etc. on the PBE. I don't know how much that helps you guys, but we like to see your iteration process and we're happy to give feedback on the changes you test.
Riotplaytestpenguin9 votesI can't speak for live gameplay, but it's been very helpful for me thus far as a playtester and I hope we continue to be more transparent about our testing process through interactions with the community. Notable changes to come to Playtest's patch chat are coming up :)
AirKingNeo5 votesGame Design isn't simple, and balance isn't black and white.
For the most part, it is. Where did the misconception come from? If X deals too much damage, you reduce X's damage.
You see this all the time with Riot where they nerf random parts of a kit that don't matter, and then finally change the issue, and then the champion is dogshit.
FurriesAreHot8 votesYou really underestimate the challenge of game design. Some things can be easily balanced, but others require forethought and careful changes.
AirKingNeo4 votesNo, not really. The only difficult things are coming up with new things.
Balance is pretty simple. Take what's overpowered/underpowered, and nerf/buff that thing. Don't dance around it like Riot does.
Maybe Riot has an issue and difficulty with finding out what part of something is overpowered, but these boards discuss for a reason and somehow no one takes the crowdsourcing.
FurriesAreHot3 votesAgain, it’s not just “just nerf it”. If I don’t have enough money to pay for rent, I don’t just “get more money”.
3TWarrior2 votesreally? there have been multiple examples of Ability A is overpowering champ X, let's see if it fixes it by nerfing abilities B and C
examples include: twisted fate, nautilus, zed and many more where there was no reason to proposed changes. Twisted Fate for instance is almost always relevant because of his ultimate and he provides utility to his team with it. Why then does he almost exclusively receive damage nerfs despite having one of the lowest damage kits in the game?
Nautilus, they even explicitly stated that he was doing too much damage with his one abiilty...so they nerfed everything else
i'd rather not get into a discussion about zed
etc
AirKingNeo2 votesBecause in reality, something stops you from getting money.
What the fuck stops you from nerfing something broken?
Fairyfleur3 votesIf it's a rune, it could make champions who use it weaker when some don't need to be. For a champion it's simpler but it might require more thought if that nerf forces them into X build while ruining other builds/runes that didn't deserve the nerf.
There are likely more reasons why it isn't as simple as it seems, but those are at least some.
HeartPalpitation16 votesI'm not sure how the barron and elder dragon changes affect games that last 10-15 minutes considering they don't even spawn until 20-45ish minutes respectively. [zombie-brand-facepalm]
Saianna6 votesMaybe he meant that game is already decided after 10-15 minutes? Then you have slow bleed because the winning side just doesn't want to finish and instead "plays" with their food?
CppL2 votesI'm not sure how the barron and elder dragon changes affect games that last 10-15 minutes considering they don't even spawn until 20-45ish minutes respectively. [zombie-brand-facepalm]
Cause 20 min baron removes any potential of comeback .Its insta gg.Even if you trying really hard to stay in the game after being behind.
Telosen7 votesGames are pretty decided by 10-15 minutes and then dragged on. Look at gold leads in all your matches and notice how when you win at 25 minutes, you were literally ahead 10k or more. The game not ending literally at 15 minutes is just the lack of game knowlege of solo players not knowing how ahead they are.
Total Eclipse7 votesIm sorry but are you fucking high? The patches this season have been the BEST so far. I am actually extremely happy with the balance team this year, coming from a hardstuck D5 6-year player. They are addressing problems (Theyve buffed turrets, people.) while adding items, making the game dynamic and fun. ADC's being the strongest role is the single thing that is being left alone right now, but THERE ARE plans in place to address this. You have to understand that shifting power like that globally takes some SERIOUS tuning to not completely break the game. For now, the more minor things are being tackled head on and I love it.
LegitBusinessman7 votesI'm sure the balance team is working very hard. The perception they are not working is largely due to things like
Tik1156 votesOk I love to bash the balance team as much as the next person (Hell I think I'm on Maple Nectar's bad list from it)
But they are NOT being paid to do nothing, Balancing a game this large is a nightmare, sure its is their fault for their old philosophy of "A new champ every month" bloating the roster and making a mess but hey ho they made their bed and such.
So with the whole matches lasting 10-15 minuets, sure some matches are decided that quick (Looking at you Placement matchmaking...) but the issue there is despite the whole "muh pro play" stuff a shorter game length means those with less time can enjoy more games, this might come as a shock to you but some people have obligations outside of this game, Some people don't want 45 min long matches.
Why make Elder and barron stronger? See again game length.
Why is damage creep going out of control. Game length
Zeal Items. Ok this one baffles me, increasing it by 100-200 gold is only 1 to 2 minions waves worth of CS, a 30 second delay. unless you say increase it by 50% of the cost (In which case you gut the item) how would that solve the zeal problem? Want to fix it? lower its stats not up its costs.
Also the balance team would be getting 5 figures, 6 figures is reserved for very high up roles or senior programmers
RiotRiot MapleNectar7 votesglares at you as angrily as a Canadian can
Honestly dude, I can't recall you ticking me off :P Looking through your chat history you usually bring up really good points. Sorry if you felt that I was ticked off at you, it was likely just a rough day for me, and then someone set me off here on the boards :P My bad dude. As long as comments are thought out and explained well I don't mind people telling us that they think we're doing a bad job.
Sydney264 votesa shorter game length means those with less time can enjoy more games
i think u have a clear mistake in thinking ... i DO NOT enjoy short games and i also do not enjoy many short games ... if i am disgusted by a game decided by 10 mins why would i play 5 games in a row which are decided within 10 mins .. this is not a mobile game .. summoners rift games were meant to last 30-45mins in former seasons if u read the dexcription of teh game mode ... thats what i enjoy ... there is no reason to pick late game champs if games are decided before the 15 minute mark
Raiyza3 votesSix figures?! Oh i hiiiiiiiighly doubt that.
Ztoka1 votesI'm all for shorter games. A loss/win in 15ish minutes means I can get more games in. Games where we lose, not as much time wasted..
