100 to 0 under tower at lvl 1, in 2 Seconds

LEAFERA·Aug 14, 2018·103 votes·20,187 views

It feels like i cant play the game, I'm dying so fast without any time to react. The game has not even started and I'm already killed under my own tower [sg-janna] normal speed clip 0.25 speed edit: more like 85-0 Disclaimer: I never said I played it perfectly, i could have done many things differently. but, My problem is not "What could I do?" My problem is with time I had to react Let me remind you THIS IS FOUR TIMES SLOWER

and to anyone who wonders about my mistakes;

he had lane advantage, because his jun and top passed through mid
I took ghost, Because I thought I was against Malzahar
I didn't use flash, Because until I realized I was in danger I knew I was dead
I didn't respect him, because I thought that If he didn't proc passive he cant kill me

195 Comments

S0kaXAug 14, 201855 votes

And here silly me thought tower protect you until both players get to level 3.

Votable JesterAug 14, 201819 votes

I really hate when the tower is locked on after the last shot already hit and doesn't fire. Would be kinda nice if they made it so it will always shoot another if they aren't out of range when the last hit.

MuxxikAug 14, 201844 votes

Came here expecting to criticize OP for mistakes he made, but this is actually a pretty good example of what is wrong with league right now.

Those of you saying he made a couple of mistakes: He was at 85%. Under his tower. If you make a couple of mistakes to a trade like this, under tower, at 85% (he didn't react fast enough to back up after being flashed on under turret at level 1), should it really cost you first blood like this?

This is exactly why people are complaining so much about the state of the game right now. Sure, Ryze could have played it better. But, honestly? This is the result we want to see because someone didn't flash, or because they didn't take ignite to go 1 for 1, while they were under tower?

God forbid he would have actually hit the return damage on his Rake. This is stupid; if you are trying to defend the amount of damage that's being done here, you're arguing for a game state that most people don't want any part of. Edit: Looks like the passive wasn't even procced, on top of the fact that the return damage of W didn't take. This is not the sort of game anyone wants to play, and it's why we're seeing the changes next patch that we're seeing.

Teridax68Aug 14, 201812 votes

It's also worth mentioning that even if Ryze did make mistakes, the Talon played even worse. He burned Flash at exactly the wrong time, causing his W2 to miss, and therefore failing to apply his passive, as you also noted. Part of the problem with how the issue has been discussed isn't just that people are coming up with mental gymnastics to try to justify the ridiculous amounts of damage being outputted, but that there's also quite a bit of victim-blaming going on, with people choosing to focus on how the player whose champion died played less than perfectly (which will always happen, even if the player is pro), rather than the larger context of what exactly happened, whether that deserves a death, and whether or not the killer made mistakes as well. It's a horrendously toxic mentality, and despite that there is still an overwhelming amount of complaints regarding time to kill in the game, which goes to show just how obvious it is even in the face of sheer denial.

MarshbouyAug 14, 201836 votes

Came here expecting to insult you for playing poorly but that's just idiotic.

Skill is dead.

OnlyVelKozOnlyAug 14, 201826 votes

Dude just adapt to the meta and abandon the champs you find enjoyable and play assassins /s

sevlesruoY kcuFAug 14, 201820 votes

Welcome to League of Melee Burst.

SalronAug 14, 201820 votes

more like 85-0

LEAFERAAug 14, 201821 votes

if you insist

Drago326Aug 14, 20185 votes

{quoted}

if you insist

I read this in the old Swain voice xd I'm gay

RexxieeAug 14, 201815 votes

Talon is ridiculously broken, idk how he didnt get gutted yet.

He does not need passive anymore to 100-0 you starting lvl 2.

Aram Mama Aug 14, 20184 votes

I dont see problem with this, he should be able to 100-0 without passive in mid game /s

mohamadsiaAug 14, 201813 votes

talon is this since release, u must manage game so a melee wouldnt be safe enough to farm and get level 2 first, then u must poke him and abuse ur ranged, after all if u just dodge talon W his dmg is 0 , IM UNSKILLED AND I CANT PLAY IT ANYMORE, better quit <3

LibroMastroAug 14, 20187 votes

So if you can't dodge Talon's W you are dead at any level? Nice balance there, very skillful game

Subject 5Aug 14, 201811 votes

And here's me taking a tower in 4 minutes of the game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dmiPaAhbNI

JefftiffyAug 14, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmyYtI1R,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-08-14T02:43:04.942+0000)

And here's me taking a tower in 4 minutes of the game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dmiPaAhbNI

That's from when ADCs were stronger and red buff burned towers. Don't spread false information.

Emerald FangAug 14, 201810 votes

Well, it's talon. Talon needs his Q crit removed and his passive AD ratio halved, no other champion in this game can deal so much damage when still missing half their spells. Complain all you want about Zed but he has one combo every 15 seconds and if he misses it, he's SOL. If you miss a W proc as Talon you should be in the same boat as Zed, but you can still instakill with just Q + autos.

IllabetheAug 14, 20189 votes

Dude. Talon is notorious for a level 2 kill. You underestimated him.

His passive damage is huge, electrocute, and Ignite. You took his entire kit and expected to live.

LEAFERAAug 14, 201854 votes

HE DIDNT EVEN GOT HIS PASSIVE! [sg-lux-2]

IllabetheAug 14, 20184 votes

His Passive is his passive lol. He only has to hit/skill 3 times to proc it. First he hit with Q. Then he flash > Noxian Diplomacied (which if you use it close range, turns into a leap and a crit), and followed it with an auto attack. And then right before he got out of turret, he auto attacked AGAIN.

all in all.....

-there were 4 hits to proc his passive.

-there were 5 hit/skills to proc Electrocute.

Automated RivenAug 14, 201848 votes

The return on his w didn't hit. He didn't proc his passive.

IllabetheAug 14, 20182 votes

He did proc Noxian Diplomacy's crit, Ignite. Electrocute, 1 Q hit, 2 auto attacks. That's enough.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 14, 201836 votes

Autos don't apply it, only spells.

Neither does ignite.

Only his W Q and R apply it.

IllabetheAug 14, 20181 votes

Read the comment. Then delete.....

Automated RivenAug 14, 201832 votes

Read his passive. The first thing you should have done was to check to ensure your right before you post shit like that. Here. I will help.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Talon

And the relevant part

Innate: Talon's abilities wound enemy Champion icon.png champions and epic monsters every time they deal damage, lasting 6 seconds and stacking up to 3 times.

Talon's next basic attack against enemies with 3 wounds consume them, causing them to bleed for 75 - 245 (based on level) (+ 200% bonus AD) physical damage over 2 seconds, with each tick occurring every 0.125 seconds

The key word here is abilities wound enemies.

Now, if you rewatch the video you will see that talon flashed poorly and cause the second part of his w to miss ryze. That means that the only two abilities to hit him was W1 and his empowered Q. That means two stacks and no passive proc.

Votable JesterAug 14, 20189 votes

He procced electrocute sure, but definitely not his passive. I mean you still see the markers stuck at 2 when the Ryze died.

MuxxikAug 14, 201818 votes

Auto attacks that are not empowered by Q do not apply passive stacks. Also, you can visually see the passive below the target; and you can see that the passive was not applied. 2 stacks of the passive were applied, and at 2 stacks, Ryze was dead before the passive was ever procced.

Baron BarianAug 14, 20187 votes

He procced electrocute and ignite and flashed you, you were not 100%, he was level 2 while you were 1, and you moved to the side before auto-attacking instead of backwards and avoid an easy to avoid a situation. He is also a Talon fighting against one of the weakest early game champions in the game, and he clearly had enough health to survive the dive. Also, going W first on Ryze is only a good idea if you're expecting an early gank.

Nothing at all is wrong with this. You just handled a bad match-up very, very poorly.

LEAFERAAug 14, 201833 votes

If I went back I would get the second part of the W I never said I played it perfectly, but is it really ok to just get Deleted like this 2 Minutes in to the game??

Baron BarianAug 14, 20184 votes

{quoted}

If I went back I would get the second part of the W I never said I played it perfectly, but is it really ok to just get Deleted like this 2 Minutes in to the game??

If you played it bad enough, then yes. Here, you played it fairly bad. You picked a poor level 2 and couldn't control your lane and made it easy for him to play aggressive against you since he had such a big XP advantage. But even so, if you respected that advantage and played safer, you could've avoided the level 2 all-in.

You didn't respect his advantage and that simply costed you first blood. This was all on you.

MuxxikAug 14, 201835 votes

Sorry, but I and most people will heavily disagree with you.

Mistakes like the ones made by Ryze here should come with a penalty. The fact that Ryze was under turret, at level 1, with 85% of his HP remaining, though, means that those mistakes should not be so harsh.

At best, Talon's advantage here should cost Ryze his ability to CS the wave which is building into his turret. This could lead to a snowball in Talon's favor. It could leave him susceptible to a followup dive. What seems to be discounted here is the fact that Talon missed multiple parts of his kit, at level 2, and still managed to take multiple tower shots while 85-0'ing the enemy laner with only a single level advantage.

You're overplaying the significance of Ryze's mistakes to try to justify what happened, but the fact is no one wants to play a game where one player has to play far behind their turret at 85% HP, or flash away from a level 2 assassin under the cover of their own turret, to be said to have played the situation correctly.

1RiceBowl1xAug 14, 20184 votes

Dude ryze started W. Ryze starting W has sucked since the minion aggro changes. Had he started E he wouldve had a much easier time hitting level 2 and poking down talon.

What do you expect? level 1 ryze who started W who cant hit level 2 fast cuz he started W vs a level 2 talon?

ryze is one of talons hardest matchups if ryze knows what hes doing.

although i agree that talon shouldnt have killed ryze without hitting return W and proccing passive

MuxxikAug 14, 201826 votes

The last part of your response is literally the only point I am making.

I agree that Ryze shouldn't start W, and I agree that he should do what he can to minimize the amount of time Talon can keep a level advantage, and respect the level and spell advantage in the meantime.

I agree that the match will inherently favor Talon early.

What I don't agree with are arguments people are making that any of those things, even put together, should result in Ryze dying under turret at 2 minutes. Should it create a major advantage for Talon? Sure. Should Talon secure at level 2 after missing multiple parts of his burst, and being snared under turret, and not even trade his life for it? Not at all.

The problem with laning phase right now is it is too punishing on players who make one set of mistakes early on. It should require multiple errors, or multiple good plays, over a larger period of time, to actually accumulate a real meaningful lead in lane. Not this "You started the wrong ability and didn't level as soon as I did, so you die from 85%" nonsense.

BakedLotionAug 14, 20181 votes

If he played it correctly he would've walked away with a kill

He didn't have to play far behind his turret. He just needed to press flash and w.

People have been getting first blood at level 2 for years. I don't know why people think this is new.

MuxxikAug 14, 201813 votes

If he had flashed, he would have died to the remaining ticks of ignite and lost flash. The last auto Talon gave wasnt even needed.

I've been playing since Season 1, I know exactly how much damage there has been over time. I know that in past seasons, there is no way that this Talon, after hitting only 60% of his combo, would 85-0 a Ryze while he is snared under turret at level 2 and survive.

If you think that is something that would have happened before the new rune system took effect and before early game defenses were nerfed with the removal of old yellows, you are hilariously mistaken.

I'd also like to point out that even in your response you seem to think that Ryze should have to Flash to avoid this situation. People are annoyed with this game state precisely because we shouldn't have to worry about flashing while already under turret within the first two mins of of the game while almost full health.

Sire HippingtonAug 14, 20181 votes

If he had flashed, he would have died to the remaining ticks of ignite and lost flash. The last auto Talon gave wasnt even needed.

actually, if he flashed as soon as talon flashed, he would have avoided 2AAs, which might have been enough.

Still doesn't excuse how high damage is right now, Talon missing out on 160! damage through the missed W and still takeing 85% in 2 sec should not happen.

In the current state of the game, you basically need to blow all you're CDs as soon a a play is made, else you might not be able to use them at all befor you're dead, and this is one of the biggest issues of LoL atm. Waiting to see how things play out and decideing mid fight wethere commiting a big CC is warrented no longer is a thing, you don't need tactical dicisions, you need to dump all you have as soon as a fights starts, and that's bullshit.

MuxxikAug 14, 20185 votes

This is the exact point that I'm trying to make in this thread.

Yes, Ryze could have done a bunch of things different that might have let him live and maybe net him a kill if he had played like a god robot and reacted flash for flash in literally 0.25 seconds, which is what it would have taken for him to be successful.

But that isn't the point. The point is no one wants to play a game state where it's necessary to flash in 0.25 seconds with 85% HP in just about any situation because there is not even 1 full second to make a decision whether or not flashing or ulting is warranted/necessary.

AndevarAug 14, 20186 votes

Talon has THE STRONGEST lvl 2 powerspike in the game and he always has. If you've played against good Talons before, you should know he was going to try to nab you since he has the level advantage on you. You also made the mistake of staying in his W range at LVL 2.

You also had flash at the ready.

LEAFERAAug 14, 201811 votes

talon strong lvl 2 comes from his ability to proc passive, he miss that and still kills me

Handin Out NapsAug 14, 20184 votes

He hit you with 2 autos and an empowered crit instead tho...

WimbledofyAug 14, 20186 votes

+eloctrocute which is overtuned, and ignite which got buffed recently. I wish champions power came from their kit rather than keystones.

JefftiffyAug 14, 20183 votes

I mean all I see was greed on both ends. If someone blows flash ignite I flash away unless im guaranteed or more than likely dead. 2 summoners for 1. You made the mistake of trying to side step and fight him instead of just ending the engagement with the Summoners advantage. Your aas do less damage and you only had one damaging ability that is a mini root.

LEAFERAAug 14, 20187 votes

this is 0.25 speed... i was dead the moment he use flash

Automated RivenAug 14, 201817 votes

He would have died if he had flashed. The q aa would have gone through because of the way quing spells works in this game. Even if he had reacted instantly. The second talon flashed he was dead and not wasting flash was good.

BakedLotionAug 14, 20181 votes

No... If he reacted fast enough he could've easily flashed backwards, W'd immediately instead of after talon auto'd twice and lived.

Notice how talon auto'd and then Q'd. That auto animation was his time to flash to avoid the crit Q. Yes I did speed it up and there was ample time

I'm not gonna argue talon shouldn't be able to kill without his passive, but he played this extremely poorly. Why the fuck would he walk sideways instead of backwards???

Automated RivenAug 14, 20186 votes

{quoted}

No... If he reacted fast enough he could've easily flashed backwards, W'd immediately instead of after talon auto'd twice and lived.

Notice how talon auto'd and then Q'd. That auto animation was his time to flash to avoid the crit Q.

thats at 25% speed. so from 4 seconds when talon flashes and 7 seconds when ryze is dead, happened in between .5 and .75 seconds. You have to correctly identify that flashing is the right option. (he dodged the return w so I would have judged it safe to fight it out) In most senatiors trading flashes there would be bad. If ryze had been level 2 he would have lived. and traded up a kill.

BakedLotionAug 14, 20181 votes

If a talon is flash igniting u in Q crit melee range at 65% hp, I'm pretty sure you should flash as well. Especially as a champion with one of the lowest base hp pools in the game.

Automated RivenAug 14, 20185 votes

{quoted}

If a talon is flash igniting u in Q crit melee range at 65% hp, I'm pretty sure you should flash as well. Especially as a champion with one of the lowest base hp pools in the game.

.25 seconds for reaction time. You still die tho. flash aa q aa (from the reset) happen basically instantly. and ignite. Ryze stil dies in that senario.