@Riot: How is it fair that cass gets a 0.9s non-skill shot ability

Ragnaric·Apr 28, 2016·2 votes·904 views

While karthus has a longer cd on his q and meets the added restriction that it has to hit a single target to do double damage?

28 Comments

ZeroleraApr 28, 20166 votes

Cause it's got a 10% AP ratio while Karthus has it at 30% before the double damage? It's also a shorter range and her main damage spell while Karthus can just pop E rush in die use a couple Qs and activate R.

It also takes double the mana therefore it becomes harder to spam.

RagnaricApr 28, 20162 votes

Except you actually have to aim and land karth's q with the base damage on it being considerably worse.

AbyssphereApr 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Except you actually have to aim and land karth's q with the base damage on it being considerably worse.

There's hardly any difference in the base damage.

RagnaricApr 28, 20162 votes

Hardly any difference, except Cass gets to land it 100% of the time where as even a great Karth will only land it 80% or less. In the long run, she does way more damage with much less effort.

QuephaApr 28, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Hardly any difference, except Cass gets to land it 100% of the time where as even a great Karth will only land it 80% or less. In the long run, she does way more damage with much less effort.

The current Cassiopeia on live servers places 29/50 of all mid laners for 'damage dealt over the course of a game'

Karthus places number 1.

RagnaricApr 28, 20161 votes

Not sure where you're getting your data but in some graphs I found from 2014, Cass isn't trailing too far behind Karth.

Draven AlwaysApr 28, 20162 votes

2014 You know they gutted cass about a year ago right?

QuephaApr 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Not sure where you're getting your data but in some graphs I found from 2014, Cass isn't trailing too far behind Karth.

champion.gg/champion/Karthus champion.gg/champion/Cassiopeia 6.8 is a little more recent than 2014

AbyssphereApr 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Hardly any difference, except Cass gets to land it 100% of the time where as even a great Karth will only land it 80% or less. In the long run, she does way more damage with much less effort.

There's hardly any difference in the base damage, Karth has much higher AP scaling and his Q has much higher range. Both abilities have advantages and disadvantages.

Karthus's E is constant damage that he doesn't even need to bother targeting. You have no leg to stand on.

QuephaApr 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Except you actually have to aim and land karth's q with the base damage on it being considerably worse.

The base damage on twin fang is only better at level 1 (when she probably doesn't have it) and level 2. After that Lay waste's base damage scales faster until level 9, and Twin fang does not catch back up with it until level 18.

And that is Lay Waste's AoE damage on multiple targets while Twin Fang's can only be used on single targets.

Billy VoHagenApr 28, 20163 votes

Downvote and move on. No logic in this argument.

RagnaricApr 28, 20161 votes

No logic because you say so? LOL

Billy VoHagenApr 28, 20163 votes

No logic because there's no logic. They are two entirely different champions, who fill different rolls, and you did not even analyze the rest of their kit. You cannot just look at 1 ability from 2 champion's kits and say they should be equal in strength.

Actually, you can, but you shouldn't.

RagnaricApr 28, 20161 votes

I actually have analysed their kits from what we know so far. Cass will be a highly sought out pick agree this rework because she will have good mobility, great damage and her passive frees up an item slot. When was the latest time Karth was relevant in the pro scene?

TwigglesApr 28, 20163 votes

Because they aren't the same champion, and their kits are extremely different.

This is like asking how Aurelion Sol's Q is fair compared to Anivia's Q. There's no point because the two champions involved are so drastically different beyond that one similar skill.

RagnaricApr 28, 20162 votes

Then let's not ever compare anything unless it's exactly the same! That's such a flawed statement. Instead you should be asking why they are different in that regard which is the point of discussion.

TwigglesApr 28, 20162 votes

I'm not saying that nothing should be compared. Only that comparing one ability out of an entire kit to another single ability of another kit is a pointless comparison. Cass's E is not unfair compared to Karthus's Q. They are two completely different abilities that are only single parts of completely unrelated kits.

RagnaricApr 28, 20161 votes

I'm pointing out this one ability because as you said they are the most similar out of otherwise unrelated kits. I would agree it's completely pointless to compare Cass w to Karth w because those are fundamentally different. The thing that bothers me is that Cass will get to deal more damage with a point and click ability, not just because of her less restrictive q but also because she gets an item advantage thanks to her passive (being able to forgo boots). How is that fair?

TwigglesApr 28, 20162 votes

How is it fair that unlike Cass, Karthus can get kills and assists anywhere on the map with the press of a single button?

What about unwarded bushes that Cass can't E into? Why is it fair that Karthus can hurt me with his Q even though he can't see me?

Why is Karthus allowed to lower my magic resist AND movement speed with his wall when Cass can't even stun me unless I'm looking at her?

Why is Karthus allowed to be a threat even after he's been killed when Cass can't?

You can make anything sound unfair if you word it that way. That doesn't mean it actually IS unfair.

RagnaricApr 28, 20161 votes

You mean kills and assists every 200+ seconds and that's IF he gets a chance to use his ultimate?

You do realize Cass can also Q into an unwarded bush and kill you, right?

You think a negligible 15% MR reduction is unfair? The slow is strong, I'll give you that much. But even with that DECAYING slow, he still has trouble catching up to mobility Champs, whereas Cass had an easier time with MS buff and a slow of her own.

Move out of Karth passive?

TwigglesApr 28, 20162 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-facepalm]

I am NOT arguing that Karthus or his abilities are unfair! Did you even read my entire post?! I quoted the most important part of my previous post below so you'll actually see it this time.

You can make anything sound unfair if you word it that way. That doesn't mean it actually IS unfair.

I'm not arguing the unfairness of anything. I'm demonstrating that anything can be made to sound like it is unfair compared to something else. Thus, it is a pointless argument right out of the gate.

I could even argue against the unfairness by saying that Cass's E only does all of its damage against poisoned targets, so that means she has to spend even more mana and actually hit people with her other abilities first. THEN she even has to move and stay in range, putting herself at more risk than Karthus in the process.

There is no point comparing one lone ability to another lone ability in the attempt to prove one unfair compared to the other. Look at the whole champion, or don't even bother.

RagnaricApr 29, 20161 votes

It seems you didn't read my post before you started sarcastically whining about unfairness in your post.

TwigglesApr 29, 20162 votes

Fine then. I'll quote and go through every part of the post you are referring to.

I'm pointing out this one ability because as you said they are the most similar out of otherwise unrelated kits.

Makes enough sense, as they are both of their primary damage sources.

I would agree it's completely pointless to compare Cass w to Karth w because those are fundamentally different.

This is also why comparing Cass E to Karth Q is pointless. Nothing else in their kits are even remotely similar. Their kits interact with themselves to set both champs apart from each other.

The thing that bothers me is that Cass will get to deal more damage with a point and click ability,

Okay, but that's single target damage. All of Karthus's damage is either AOE or global. I'd say it's completely fair for a dedicated single-target spell to do more single target damage than an AOE ability. Not to mention that Cass's E has shorter range than Karthus's Q and relies on hitting with other abilities first.

not just because of her less restrictive q but also because she gets an item advantage thanks to her passive (being able to forgo boots).

That just makes Cass a better single target nuker. That doesn't make her unfair compared to Karthus. Especially since Karthus is a dramatically better teamfighter. Even with an extra item, Cass will only be doing heavy damage to one target at a time. Meanwhile, Karthus can melt an entire team's health even if he's killed.

How is that fair?

See above.

A single target damage nuker having better single target damage than a teamfight mage is NOT unfair. They are simply different champions designed to do different things. Cass's poison AOE is nowhere near as powerful as Karthus's AOE damage abilities. To make up for that, Cass can more reliably damage a one target at a time.

QuephaApr 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Then let's not ever compare anything unless it's exactly the same!

When it comes to specific champion abilities, that's a fine solution. Start by talking about the champion you want to talk about (Karthus) and the problem you see with him (his single target damage is too low and too restrictive)

Karthus does not have a strong restriction on his single target dps, and the "fail" state where he is dealing damage to two or more champions simultaneously is hardly a bad situation.

Karthus ends up being the champion in the game with the highest damage output on average over the course of a game, I'm pretty sure he does that by having a lot of AoE damage and waveclear which would be his strengths. Letting him also beat the highest single target dps mage at her own job on top of that would be obviously broken.

RagnaricApr 28, 20161 votes

No two champions skill set is ever going to be nearly identical because they aren't the same. Furthermore, it's not like they are entirely different classes. If anything they're much more similar class wise. Both Cass and Karth are late game scaling, sustained damage mages and as such should be evaluated under the same scope.

TwigglesApr 28, 20162 votes

I agree. But there is more to each champion than their primary damage sources. Don't just compare two abilities. Compare their entire kits.

RagnaricApr 28, 20161 votes

The main issue I have with this is the fact that Cass gets to deal way more damage and so will many of the other mages being updated, while Karth gets nothing.

RiptApr 28, 20162 votes

Guess you'll just have to choose one of the other 150 champions out there. Just because your favorite champion isn't doing well in the current meta, doesn't mean you should go on a whining rant on the boards until somebody gives you what you want.

Karthus isn't a prime choice right now. Try other options.