I mean, if you look at the icons of the word nerf itself 
and 
, the were nerfed, because they're monsters in skilled hands but merely useless in beginner's. But where do we draw the line? 
is not absolutely unstoppable monster under the same circumstances? What about 
? 
maybe (fact he has no damage compared to others makes me feel good about him)?
EDIT: This is not that much about Rito - it's more like a phylosophical question where to draw the line.
S0kaX1 votesThresh needs skill, it's not easy to land that damn hook.
dominusx1 votesthresh is love. he is probably the highest skilcap support and most versalite
An Undead brat1 votesThat's the problem, all of the above need skill to be good (I would incluse Yasuo but he's the same at all levels), but only these two were dumpstered.
LF Annie1 votesof course riot is biased. they are a company that makes money, push what sells.
TDA Vanessa1 votesI think it has to do with counterplay. Azir hits you from afar and Kalista she can easily cause too much damage in a small amount of time... on multiple targets. Also, they SCALE to the late game while Riven needs a good early game so she doesn't get useless during mid or late game. And of course I am talking about regular players, not a monoriven.
An Undead brat1 votesHow many of these regular players can play Azir?
I am Pacman1 votesThis seems like a misunderstanding of why azir and kalista were nerfed. It wasn't just they were monsters in skilled hands, it was the fact that they could outplay entire teams because their base kits are overloaded. A high skill cap is fine.
Azir had same farming, safe consistent harass, a great escape, a crapton of dmg of which a lot of it will hit mutiple enemys in teamfights and the zone control/teamfight ability that is his ulti. For most of his life he didn't look op because it was so hard to maximise his potential but once pros got him down they realized his numbers and his kit were too strong.
Tl;DR Kalista and azir were op because of their kits not because their kits were mechanically intensive or had outplay potential. Its that they had too much outplay potential + everything a normal champ has. Against skilled players they had zero counterplay.
An Undead brat2 votesWell isn't Riven the same actually? Did you ever see BoxBox and Co.? Gosu and his Vayne? They literally go 1v5 and get pentakills (ofc it's dependent on many factors but so are Azir and Kalista, one point-and-click burst and they instadie...
Tukan Tonko1 votes[{quoted}](name=I am Pacman,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWZH1Equ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-12-12T14:33:50.172+0000)
This seems like a misunderstanding of why azir and kalista were nerfed. It wasn't just they were monsters in skilled hands, it was the fact that they could outplay entire teams because their base kits are overloaded. A high skill cap is fine.
Azir had same farming, safe consistent harass, a great escape, a crapton of dmg of which a lot of it will hit mutiple enemys in teamfights and the zone control/teamfight ability that is his ulti. For most of his life he didn't look op because it was so hard to maximise his potential but once pros got him down they realized his numbers and his kit were too strong.
Tl;DR Kalista and azir were op because of their kits not because their kits were mechanically intensive or had outplay potential. Its that they had too much outplay potential + everything a normal champ has. Against skilled players they had zero counterplay.
Gap-closer/escape, bonus AS while facing enemy, knock-back (stun), stealth, % max HP true damage, bonus AD on ult. Did I forgot something? We are talking about ADc, just to let you know if you don't see that icon. This is also overloaded, even for assassin or bruiser. She has also high skill cieling. So?
Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you said, but if they nerf someone because of overloaded kit, why not nerfing many others with overloaded kit and high skill cieling? Those two were nerfed because of pro play. They nerfed him because of 0,05% of their playerbase. Yet other champions have overloaded kits, high skill cieling and still destroys you with little to no skill be it mechanical or champion wise.
dominusx1 votesAzir and Kallista are tough cases. Any half decent kallista made anyone melee useless tbh. Azir pretty much had no losing matchUps except Syndra Xerath and Zed and even if he lsot he could become a HUGE threat to everyone . Riven takes skill to pull off and ignore all the golds saying she takes no skill. Just to be usefull late game you need to do a 7 to 9 button combo just to have pressence and all this in 0.8 to 1.5 seconds otherwhise u die. Yasuo is also a tough case he has a low skillfloor but he skillcap is extreme to my eyes all the tricks with him take brains to be learned like jungle surfing beyblade combos keyblade combos etc etc. BUT his wall is cancer so people ignore everything else and call him an easy champ.
A Basic Island1 voteslow skill floor on yasuo???
when i think low skill floor i think of someone like garen and darius
yasuos a champ i feel you gotta be not retarded to play half decently
dominusx1 votesnah trust me he has a low skillfloor but a really high skillcap. Not be offencive but i do not take into account low elo to judge a champ anything below platinum idc about it what they say about champ mechanics . Any plat player can pick up Yasuo and manage to rolfstomp but that doesnt mean he can do it consistently or that he can do it vs better players.
RcGjWO640w1 votesYou can pretty much just use your Q and autos and you'll win basically any trade. He just has so much damage built into his kit that once he gets 2 items, you become godlike. Idk why people try to "outplay" so much. Lol, just auto attack, you'll kill them faster.
dominusx1 votesi will agree but vs some team its not as easy to do that haha. i see a lot of players neglecting their autoattacks with yasuo trying to E whilist the enemy is just sitting getting free hits in.
RcGjWO640w1 votesIdk what this, "Spam E until it looks like I know what I'm doing" mentality with Bronze Yasuo players. Rofl. Like, I hate Yasuo as a champion concept, but when I played him and played him like a bitch, I basically just farmed up and outscaled the entire game. I almost never used my ultimate, since that's the ability that tends to get 99% of all Yasuo players in the most trouble. It's like taking a sketchy Lee Sin Q into the enemy team.
When I played him, I got double and triple kills from just auto Q'ing and I felt like he was absolutely the single most braindead champion in the game, honestly.
dominusx1 voteswell if people just sit there and get aa'd to death they are bad. i mean if you dont even use your ult you aint killing anything remotely tanky xD
RcGjWO640w1 votesI mean, Yasuo has enough mobility to where "getting autoed to death" isn't a matter of just standing there. There's no real choice in the matter. Lol. He'll dash auto Q, you run, he can't auto but he'll Q again, get his charge, Q again for the knockup, auto, auto, Q, dash into you when you get too far away and repeat. Lol. That's assuming you survive that many hits.
And yes, Yasuo can still stomp tank's in with raw damage output. Sure, his ulti helps him kill tanks, but why? Yasuo is just a champ without any intrinsic counterplay. Squishy? He can one shot. Tanky? He'll just out DPS and lifesteal through everything. Have burst? Better hope you're Annie with Tibbers up, because Windwall can make a ton of burst completely irrelevant. If its late enough in the game for him to have his Bloodthirster, then you really just have to pray you one shot him when you do jump on him, because if not, he'll slaughter everyone. Lol. It probably wouldn't be so bad if his Q didn't proc on-hit effects.
A Basic Island1 votesplat players generally have pretty good mechanics and those mechanics transfer from champ to champ. I wouldn't expect a plat/diamond to be amazing with any champ or anything, but i would expect them to not be terrible/clueless the entire time unlike the lower divisions
he's not like azir or cass levels of skill floor but he doesn't have a low one. He's def harder to play not terribly than more than half the playable roster
RcGjWO640w1 votesThe difference is that Kalista and Azir can provide a ton of utility as well as damage. Riven and Vayne had basically zero utility between the two and are pure damage dealers.
Azir falls into the category of mages who can seem to "do it all" when he's not nerfed into the ground. An instant teamfight-winning ultimate, absolutely retarded sustained damage on an AP user, deals damage from very safe ranges, very safe laning phase, has mobility, has burst, etc. He has the kit of a champion with two forms, but what kept him in line was that all of his abilities were either offensive or defensive. If he used his cooldowns offensively, then he would have no escape. Likewise if he used his WEQ combo for an escape, he won't have them up to turn on the enemy.
Kalista basically has an ultimate that makes Malphite blush, an infinitely stacking "one-button-pentakill" ability that can be used to absolutely wreck teamfights or secure baron and dragon with that juicy 3k "Smite" she has. Lol. She's just a champion that gets more and more lethal as fights go on, so she essentially became the new focus to the "protect the [blank]" comps due to her raw power.
So yeah, Riot tends to not like champions with both utility and damage.
An Undead brat1 votesYou call 4-dash and 2-hard-CC Riven and knockback/stun, 2-seconds-dash and invisibility Vayne "no utility"? Compared to Kalista with her knockup and slow?
RcGjWO640w1 votesOkay, let me rephrase that. You don't bring Riven and Vayne for their "utility". You don't bring a Riven for her CC and you don't bring Vayne for her peel. Lol.
An Undead brat1 votesNo, you bring them for everything in their kit combined - same as Kalista and Azir, you never pick any champion for one reason unless they can't do anything other (named Soraka).
RcGjWO640w1 votesNo... no you really don't. Riven and Vayne aren't exactly "highly contested picks" because of their kits. They function like any over high dps champions in the game. They're all pretty interchangable.
An Undead brat1 votesExcept the outplay potential, so no, they aren't.
RcGjWO640w1 votesIf all a champion has is damage and "outplay" then all they have is damage. Outplay is not a mechanic, it's a player-based skill differential.
Abyssphere1 votesThe posts in this thread are really off-base and don't even seem to understand the issue even when they proclaim that you don't get it. It's nothing to do with type of kit or any type of philosophy in terms of what is acceptable and what isn't. It literally just comes down to "Has the balance team managed to balance this champion between bad and good players?". The answer for Azir and Kalista is no, the answer for Riven, Vayne and Thresh is, largely, yes.
Azir has to be at a ~42% win rate to not take over pro games. Therefore, he has to be left bad due to his skillcap. Riven can easily hit a ~51% win rate and not even show up in competitive play. Therefore, she is allowed to be strong. Kalista has to be at a ~45% win rate to not take over pro games. Therefore, she has to be left bad due to her skillcap. Vayne can easily hit a ~52% win rate and not even show up in competitive play. Therefore, she is allowed to be strong.
There's no reason to figure out where we draw the line because the line draws itself for us. If a champion has too high a skillcap to be balanced then the data will present itself to us. We discovered that Azir has this problem when Riot nerfed him endlessly and yet even as his win rate went closer and closer to 40%, his dominance in pro play didn't budge. We know that Riven doesn't have this problem because she can be at a great win rate in regular games without taking over competitive ones at all. Riven only gets nerfed when she's too good at stomping poor players.
Riot don't need to spend any time worrying "Is this champion potentially too good in skilled hands?" because if that is the case for a particular champion, it will be confirmed to them. As of season 7 the only champions who have ever had to be left bad because of being too strong when used by skillful players are Azir, Ryze (got reworked, almost certainly in the same spot again), Kalista and Elise (who they managed to make significantly easier to succeed on, so she is now fine). Someone like Riven isn't randomly going to join that group after multiple seasons of being fine.