An appeal to emotion is a fallcy and should not be considered valid for buffing/nerfing champions

Schàdenfreude··9 votes·518 views

"Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence"

  • From wikipedia

I'm doing this because I used to see a lot of posts on how cancerous Yasuo or Zed is, and how they need nerfs because they felt bad to play against. Even if they were in the dumpster, people would keep complaining about them. Just becuase something feels bad to play as/against doesn't mean it's unbalanced. There is obviously a point where the extent of unfairness in gameplay is so great that the champion will need some reworks of their abilities, but those cases are usually very rare and seldom seen.

Of course, there aren't many posts like that nowadays, but some new posts have been popping up about how Zoe needs some of her nerfs reverted. One post in particular, wrote up this massive text that contained a story about how Zoe made someone's life much better and brighter, sort of like when a person is in deep depression and then they find something that excites them.

The problem with this is that posts like these don't actually contain factual evidence for why champions should be buffed/nerfed. Instead, they appeal to the emotions of the reader in order to leverage support. Doing this can be very dangerous and counterproductive, because if the balance team really did use emotion to balance the game certain champiosn the balance team are biased towards would be in a very good spot whereas other ones would be in very bad spots.

It was kind of troubling when I saw posts like that getting upvotes and making it to the front page. Yes, it contains a sad story about how Zoe nerfs completely destroyed her, but no factual evidence whatsoever. It shows how easily people can be waylaid by emotion rather than reason.

I'm not saying Zoe doesn't need some of her nerfs reverted, it's just that arguing without factual evidence and appealing to the emotions of the reader is invalid. Besides, Meddler even mentioned how he would rather overnerf Zoe at this point and then buff her back up to a certain point.

TL;DR Using emotions to argue is fallicious and those arguments shouldn't be considered when making balancing decisions. If people want to make arugments for buffs/nerfs to a champion, then use justifications as to why it should be buffed/nerfed.

27 Comments

Kai Guy2 votes

Also Burden of proof is on the first person to make a claim. Something is not true because its not proven to be wrong, its true when proven to be true.

Lord of Math1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AOJfx0c7,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-23T19:46:32.169+0000)

Also Burden of proof is on the first person to make a claim. Something is not true because its not proven to be wrong, its true when proven to be true.

Unless you use the scientific method.

Kai Guy1 votes

No, I'm pretty positive Scientific method does not make truth with out proof. Infact I do believe the Scientific method accounts for "shit I may be wrong" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Lord of Math1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AOJfx0c7,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-24T09:59:24.914+0000)

No, I'm pretty positive Scientific method does not make truth with out proof. Infact I do believe the Scientific method accounts for "shit I may be wrong" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method I meant i says that everything is wrong by default, and if you fail to prove it wrong, then you get to say that it is not wrong.

Kai Guy1 votes

Edit that mate, your response is stuck in the bubble as well lol. Point I wanna make is many clam to be right, don't show anything to back it besides their words or here is my personal experience it has to be true for you as well.

91929298DEL12 votes

[deleted]

Anastaecia6 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing, "balance" is not the goal by itself because this game has no relevance and value in itself, only as a product that produces money for it's developers.

It will produce more money if player satisfaction is high, sometimes this can be achieved by striving for objective balance and others by trying to appease irrational, emotional responses such as those that came up regarding Zoe.

Riot nerfed Zoe so much not because they thought she objectively need it but simply to increase the player satisfaction amongst all those emotionally driven and irrational players that had joined the bandwagon against her supposed overpoweredness and from a business stand point it makes absolute sense.

Zoe was nerfed because her ban rate was high across the boards (actually higher in high ELOs than lower) since her release.

91929298DEL12 votes

[deleted]

Schàdenfreude3 votes

How do you know that emotions were the only driving factor behind the high banrate and not reason as well?

91929298DEL11 votes

[deleted]

Schàdenfreude1 votes

I actually should've worded my question a litte better. What I meant was how do you know that Zoe, objectively, didn't need nerfs? Because it seems to me like that one-shotting people with a single Q is pretty overpowered. Not to mention how someone couldn't even cleanse her sleep if they were drowsy.

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

How do you know that emotions were the only driving factor behind the high banrate and not reason as well?

Because statistically while she is a major pain, compared to most mid laners she was not the main reason you lost a game. If you wanted to ban to increase your chance of winning there were much better options. Furthermore even after she got gutted any post made even hinting at making her viable gets downvoted. emotion is a huge part of it.

Schàdenfreude1 votes

I would contest that banning other mid laners would be a better option. What other champions would you suggest are arguably more broken than Zoe?

Also, I would assume that of course any one champion does not lose a person the game instantly. This is universal for basically the entire roster. Just as Sejuani can initiate a teamfight that ends the game, Zoe can catch people out with her sleep as well.

Tychusfindlay9182 votes

Emotional appeal is fine so long as it does not form the basis of the argument.

In fact, pathos is arguably one of the three main persuasive elements in human communication.

That being said, just to be clear, yes, authority and evidence-based reasoning should be the main foundation of any given argument.

Schàdenfreude1 votes

I agree. While emotion may be present in an argument to bloster some points, it should not be the main course for people to digest.

Anastaecia1 votes

No worries, Riot doesn't make balance changes because a few people complain on the boards. They actually use stats from 100s of 1000s of games played each patch.

BobaFlautist1 votes

Please stop trying to use concepts you don't understand in a situation they don't apply to.

Schàdenfreude1 votes

Can you please explain how this does not apply to whatever situation you are speaking of?

Kai Guy1 votes

^ a good example of what I mean with burden of proof being MIA far to often.

gabetheguy1 votes

agreed. thank christ riot doesn't care about these boards.

Phieldworker1 votes

I like going against those hard champs especially in norms when I’m trying to get better. Having challenges to get better is ideal. Yeah it sucks getting one shotted but it doesn’t make me go “there’s no counter to that”. Instead it makes me think “what can I do better so this doesn’t happen again?” Was I away from team, am I squishy, should I be defending the squishy etc. Solutions to “op” champs should be found through being versatile and making proper adjustments. Game would be boring if you play the same exact way every round and win.

Naymliss1 votes

An appeal to emotion does not apply when they're arguing that most people feel that emotion when playing against a certain champion(tilt versus heimer, things of that nature.)

Scary Door1 votes

It may be a logical fallacy when discussion political or social issues, however in a leisure time activity---which is how 99.999% of the community plays this game---then how something "feels" is a factor that should not be entirely discounted.

Yasuo is obnoxious to play against---he is not objectively overpowered/overtuned at all, as a matter of fact he is quite the opposite when you consider that he has been played so sparingly in high level (professional) play/worlds. Just because he is not viable in high level play does not mean that his frustration factor is any less to the rest of us. Zed, Teemo and 8.4 Zoe fall into this category as well. Their play patterns are such that it is not fun to play against them in lane.

This doesn't mean that the champion has to be completely reworked or overhauled, but when champions like this have such a high ban rate or are continually discussed as points of frustration by the community, then the situation needs to be addressed.

Games should be fun---granted the term "fun" is highly subjective, but "fun" has to be balanced around how enjoyable a champion may be to play versus how irritating they may be to play against.

I agree that we can't just balance champions on a whim or because some people whine about them, but when it becomes clear that a good portion of the community is irritated by a specific mechanic, then that is something that the "balance team" should look in to.

abca981 votes

Noboy wants Yasuo nerfed for having a cancerous design. Nerfs will never fix his problems. No, we want changes to his kit so he is slightly less cancerous. Something like not having to dodge a tornado that goes through everything every 6 seconds, giving him an actual resource, giving him real cooldowns, making his less "dash spam 24/7".... You know, that kind of things.

PopcornBunni1 votes

{quoted}

Noboy wants Yasuo nerfed for having a cancerous design. Nerfs will never fix his problems. No, we want changes to his kit so he is slightly less cancerous. Something like not having to dodge a tornado that goes through everything every 6 seconds, giving him an actual resource, giving him real cooldowns, making his less "dash spam 24/7".... You know, that kind of things.

I still say his spells other than dash should cost flow until he reaches max (and while the shield holds). That would keep him having to move fluidly to keep his spells available and fit with what flow is supposed to be in a combat sense.

From there some nerfs (and quite a few buffs) would also be warrented. Windwall only taking so much damage (or hits), Q tornado moved to ult first cast (replaced with a stun of the same duration on the Q itself), windwall cooldown lowered, and a whole bunch more besides these spitballs.

Point is these kind of champions need to reach a point where they can be reliably balanced up or down going forward before being hit with overzealous nerfs or buffs in the first place.

Zoe's power redistribution to W and Passive are good on their own, but would be meaningless without the Cleanse on Drowsy, previous R movement delay, and Q's single-target focused damage change.

Going further back, Anivia had a nerf to where she couldn't snapcast RE to deal its enhanced damage instantly. That change is beneficial going forward if she needs buffs in the future, because she doesn't have a snapcast nuke to balance around.

Another character, and one I play as my main in the Jungle, is Evelynn, who I think very much warents a change along these lines. The way her W is currently, the arrow showing her direction only appears once the charm is already fully primed, meaning she has to be balanced around a long-duration hard cc which doesn't give enough information to properly react to until it is too late. If the arrow indicator was pushed earlier in the charm timer, she wouldn't need to be balanced around that fact, since her opponent would always have an appropriate reaction to deal with it.

See that, I'm asking for a NERF on a character I play, not because I want her to be weaker, but because it would open her balance budget up for future or concurrent changes. If she didn't have to rely on an unintuitive interaction, she could have more power elsewhere, like her stealth, movement speed, or cooldowns which all need to be gated so she can't abuse a smaller stealth radius with her hard cc.

As is, she's a much less balanced character than before her rework, and I don't mean in an overpowered way (not necessarily at least). I mean she's either going to be hot garbage or broken beyond reason because so much of her power budget is tied to a hard cc and stealth that can't be responded to in conjunction. As long as she has that 2-second charm out of stealth, it doesn't matter if she's weak or strong, she will NOT be balanced.

And that is the issue. Not that it feels bad playing against or as them, that it leads to fundamentally imbalanced characters.

SEKAI1 votes

Zoe was not nerfed without evidence, she has extreme pick/ban in pro scene which itself is already indicative of a problem, while on top of it there are too many elements from her ability sets that are straight up impossible to balance, from the most glaring her W, her Q (with R) which is a reenactment of old Nid, and her disgustedly overloaded E. With her entire champ being literally made out of VERY CLEAR design blackholes, of course she's nerfed this much. A bigger question should be why she's even released in the first place.

Also, "Appeal to emotions" is the kind of argument that TRIGGERS or AROUSES the reader's emotions itself in order to gain their support, while illegitimately bypassing the need to go through actual proofs to convince the said reader. The most textbook example of such an argument can be seen in things like charity ads, where the common tactic is using a big picture of a starving child to get people to support and donate purely out of empathy or sympathy. Quoting the common observation and complaints that most people have reported frustration while playing against Zed and Yasuo and the like, and basing it as a motive for an action, is as far as I know, not an appeal to emotion argument (unless you believe any and all kind of topic and debate that involve the quoting of certain emotions to be 'appeal to emotion' on no basis beyond the fact they are talking about emotions). Pretty sure you used the term out of context.

Zed and Yasuo and the like who are the "feel bad to play against" is also a design issue, not solely emotional. Just like any official documents, books, websites, in-game HUD, and whatever, can very easily be badly designed and they're obnoxious to navigate through, a champ can also be obnoxiously designed so they're a bad experience to either play as, with, or play against. "Feel bad to play against" is just a report of the symptoms, the root and cause of the said symptom is obviously a set of inadequate design decisions; typically "feel bad" is referring to a lack of agency, either you have too little say on the champ's success when you play as or with them, or you have too little say on your success when you play against them. Zed has the issues of having his potential of success to almost exclusively be tied to his level 6 all-in, where he goes boom if the lane opponent can not survive and bust if they can, which results in both Zed players and their opponents having little say on the interaction, hence "feel bad"; Yasuo currently shares a similar issue, where he either hard-counters you and you just get owned because you literally can not do shit, or he gets hard countered and he just get owned while he literally can't do shit (and not to mention, Yasuo is a champ of 0 CD, being semi-ranged with very spammable range attacks and also has a strong CC element, conditional infinite mobility, strong early, broken late, with a broken hitbox windwall that negates all projectiles including things that aren't projectiles but are somehow coded as one, and you wonder why people find his design obnoxious). A complaint that a champ is bad to play against is not automatically invalid, just because you do not understand the "why" and "what" goes into the said complaint. Professional designers can obviously attempt to quantise these factors and play with them to hopefully achieve a good spot where everybody is happy, which is the very notion of power budgeting and game balance.

More from Gameplay

More by Schàdenfreude