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League never has been or will be better than the Cinderhulk meta

RIPxMidnight··211 votes·9,589 views

Do you remember who you banned consistently during the Cinderhulk meta? Sejuani Sion Amumu Warwick Volibear Shyvana ... all viable bans for the OP Cinderhulk champions, and that doesn't even account for other Cinderhulk viables like Nunu ChogathZac Rammus Nautilus DrMundo not to mention any of the typical non-jungle bans (Riven/Fiora, Vayne always fashionable, among others), lane-counter bans, or other top junglers of the era. Hell, you could have success with off-meta tanks like Cinderhulk Vi LeeSin XinZhao if you already locked the champ but then your team bulked up on AD.

That variety of "OP" is the closest thing to balance that League ever had or ever will have. The thing about Cinderhulk is that it wasn't really overpowered. Sure, some champions seemed weaker by comparision, but those other champions were still strong. Maybe there were complaints about top lane summoner 11. If you picked summoner 12, use it to out pressure the map or win the gold/exp battle in lane by out trading an opponent who lacked a decent early lane weapon.

Since Cinderhulk was nerfed, remember what we've seen?

  • Runeglaive Ezreal (and Gangplank for that matter)
  • Juggernauts that were brokenly strong and unplayable outside of Blind Pick (or even at Worlds)
  • ADC in all three lanes (and jungle)
  • League of Warlords and the shortly thereafter
  • League of Thunderlords

League has never felt as fun and dynamic as it did during the Cinderhulk balance. Coupled with the removal of sight wards and the addition of this "don't-even-try-to-soloqueue", League has never been less appealing to this four year player. League used to be about encouraging diversity, but now it just feels like one-trick ponies can succeed more than ever before.

We have seen the mountain top, but now we're just walking down the back side.

303 Comments

Uiraya92 votes

When tanks are strong, carries have options, and strategy matters.

When assassins are strong, carries don't get to play the game anymore, and strategy devolves into twitch combos from fow.

I'd like a ticket back to the tank meta. It wasn't perfect, but it's as close as they've ever gotten.

Z4618 votes

Talon main here. I don't like when tanks are strong not because they're unkillable (and trust me, I like that part about tanks), but because tanks being strong always means they can burst carries as fast as I can when they shouldn't, and they do it while being unkillable and with more CC.

Sir Yamazuki39 votes

{quoted}

Talon main here. I don't like when tanks are strong not because they're unkillable (and trust me, I like that part about tanks), but because tanks being strong always means they can burst carries as fast as I can when they shouldn't, and they do it while being unkillable and with more CC.

It's impossible to "burst" a carry like an assassin as a tank that is built tank. Anytime a tank kills a carry it is over a very long period as it requires multiple rotations. The only time a tank bursts a carry is if they are something like AD/AP Malphite, full AP Sej, etc. but then, any ability focused champion built glass/bruiser is going to 100-0 carries anyways.

Szunray4 votes

I mean you can say that, and I might even believe it, but When Tahm Kench gets three stacks on you, you might as well just instantly die, since you WILL die (soon) and nobody will be able to do anything about it.

Fact is that "slow" tank damage when applied to squishies with no defensive items can actually burst them down, and when all of this was happening and people knew it was happening, the response was "Squishies build no defensive items and complain when they get bursted, waaaaah"

Melledoneus23 votes

Tahm Kench isn't a tank. He's a big, waddling, slobbering ball of stats that should never have been devised.

If you prefer assassins killing you in less than a second rather than a fed tank killing you in 10, fine. Masochists have their place in this world. But as a tank main I prefer not having to deal with BS that you can't build enough against like Tryndamere, Tahm, Fiora, Illaoi, every ADC with item 3036, and our good friend item 3124 that makes every auto attack champion broken. I've seen this stupid item work on Orianna. ORIANNA.

Steel Blossom1 votes

Yeah well also a Talon main, and that guy above me is silly. Tanks don't burst, they just keep sticking to the carry and hit it til it dies, with 0 ways of peeling them or killing them before they kill your squishy. That feels a lot more cancerous to me on the few occasions that I play ADC. Seriously, it's like fucking WoW, just fucking tank and spank.

Melledoneus7 votes

I'm not sure if you're aware, but CC works on tanks. It works. Also, I play a lot of Talon. ADCs have to be peeled for, and tanks generally don't do that much damage that quick. They're not assassins. Tanks, in my opinion, unless they're super freaking ahead (in which case, blame yourself), are the least cancerous role in the game. What are they going to do, TANK you to death? Deal their BASE DAMAGES against you? Meanwhile:

Fighters: Tryndamere Fiora Riven These f*ckers will FIND and kill not only your carry, but your whole god damn team.

Juggernauts: Darius Garen Illaoi Tankier than tanks, and definitely more damaging. Capable of decimating entire teams.

Assassins: Zed Rengar Talon Leblanc Pray for your carry. If you're atheist, find a god to believe in. Nothing else has hope for you if any of these guys get fed. Especially for your carry.

Burst Mages: Brand Annie Lux Yep. You know the drill.

ADCs: MissFortune Caitlyn Tristana Lucian Heh heh heh... hah HAH HAH HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Lee Sin: LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin We have quite a variety of these, but in general they're annoying, toxic, and impossible to deal with. Sporting multiple CC moves and incredible mobility, paired up with very high ratios and base damages, this is the only time you can see someone build full tank and still delete a squishy like an assassin.

AninLegions7778 votes

Lool. Tank Meta is always worse than Assasin meta. Why? Assassins are squishy and can be stopped if they get CCed right. Tanks? Lool. Rammus goes in the middle of TF and taunts Mid laner or ADC and it's over. He has so much dmg, it's disgusting. Same with Skarner or Mundo. The assassins that you even fear can't even take down the tanks. Talon VS. Voli? Lool Pls. Voli bear deletes him every single time. So I hate both metas but Assassin Meta was definitely the one I prefer.

Giga Kahuna13 votes

Assassins are squishy and can be stopped if they get CCed right.

now i'm not trying to start an argument here but most of the in-meta assassins have ways to get towards a squishy relatively easy, while the other team needs specific items to stop certain assassins, i.e, qss for zed and pink wards for talon, or an hourglass

this isn't even touching rengar who can just dick all over whoever he wants

The Mighty Flea81 votes

Hell even Urgot was played during tank meta. That tells you something.

Ariel the Cruel7 votes

Because shield, long range poke, and 20% armor shred are the worst things to have in a tank meta. XD

Cavemantero59 votes

I'm personally tired of all the mini-game champs and reworks even more. They are terrible mechanics for a skill based game. They just distract from the objectives of the real game in order to give 'flavor' and 'uniqueness' to a champ.

On topic however, Tank meta though is the best because it allows for actual tactics to be used in team fights rather than who has the fastest reaction time to burst down the team in less than 4 seconds. Guess LCS plays weren't flashy enough...but it made the game more fun for everyone else.

Old Man Teeto27 votes

Tank meta has always been the healthiest meta since the most variety exists, and combat isn't decided as instantly.

Assassin's are the least healthy design in ANY moba. While having them be useful is fine, they should be clearly punished and noticeably weak against lineups with beefier front-lines and protective abilities for the backline. This was true during the tank meta, and is true now ONLY when Lulu is being played -- and she's perma banned competitively now (for over a year?), and has always been a mediocre solo-que pick.

Again, Riot's way of balancing is a circular system. Tank meta turns into sustain meta turns into assassin meta turns into tank meta. They just have to adjust a few items/masteries and it will turn again. They don't strive for actual balance, but more of a constant change of pace in a cyclical fashion.

Skypual6 votes

Ewww So called "tank meta" was just Cinderhulk being op, How is a meta healthy when entire class is not viable. (I'm talking about Assassins) Game was only around teamfighting, no other strategies, we wouldn't see a pick comp, split push comp (Maybe with a Shen who is another tank) or a siege comp because every tank was getting item 3800 and forcing teamfights.

Melledoneus14 votes

Bruisers still existed in the tank meta, remember that.

Assassins were viable, but weren't suffocating the game's balance, so naturally people stopped playing them. People like Redmercy who were true assassin mains shined in this meta because they stood out even more for their skill.

AMYS GRAVE9 votes

How is a meta healthy when entire class is not viable. (I'm talking about Assassins)

Zed was the most popular midlaner during the cinderhulk meta...

Athenes Lulu52 votes

During those patches I actually forgot who to ban. No one other than Shyvana/Sejuani were ban-worthy at that time because of how literally "balanced" the game was.

Though you would still get 100-0'd by tanks anyways, but at least it's a slow, painful death, where you can try to find ways to think about how to deal with them instead of blindly playing the reaction game and mash buttons.

Boy, how I missed that.

RIPxMidnight17 votes

This is a great post that adds to my thoughts exactly.

When there are no clear bans, that feels to me like the definition of balance. Even if you were to ban Sejuani, an Amumu could do the job similarly. Same for Shyvana, there were other tanky fighters who could fill in. There wasn't really one clear OP pick with a unique impact on the game.

A marksman or apc could find themselves 100-0'd by a farmed up tank, but this wasn't always a given. It's healthy for a tank to be able to win a fight 1v1 sometimes. Champions that couldn't click through that bulked up Nunu were encouraged to work with a team instead of 1v1 to victory.

It Hertz When IP9 votes

That time when bans were to keep out your counters, not reserved for the FotM cheese.

SleepyLionCub33 votes

people shouldnt even be calling it the "cinderhulk meta"

it was the "tanks are actually tanks for once and dont die in 2 attacks late game"

AninLegions7771 votes

Rammus dies in 2 attacks Lategame? Alistar? Skarner? Malphite? Volibear? Should I keep going?

doiminat0r36009 votes

Vayne

AninLegions7772 votes

I doubt we are talking about the same LoL. Malphite, Skarner or Volibear will eat her up. Alistar won't cos he won't have damage. Vayne can never kill a rammus. But please, humour me and explain how she'll kill them in 2 attacks.

doiminat0r36009 votes

You dont know the power of a vayne late game.

Skypual5 votes

I don't know which game you are playing but tanks never died in 2 auto attacks.

doiminat0r36009 votes

You've obviously never played against a late game vayne

Melledoneus21 votes

Fiora Between Route 420 and Bullsh*t Town, there's a patch of tall grass. You'll encounter one of these, that delete tanks in several seconds at most.

Dasdi965 votes

Cinderhulk meta was balanced right, I mean I love getting 100-0'd by a full tank in one rotation when I am 2 levels and half an item ahead.

BetaDude4031 votes

Were you even playing the same game?

I mean, who the hell would do that?

TheI3igDaddy4 votes

Shyvana got pretty fucking stupid if she was ahead. Remember when she took Smite + that dueling one (I forget the name, the mini-exhaust) and just ran at you?

TahmKench Expert16 votes

After the rework of devourer?

Sulghunter2 votes

Chogath Gragas Hecarim JarvanIV Malphite Maokai Nautilus Nunu Renekton Sejuani Udyr Volibear Zac

KONO RUBICK DA8 votes

{quoted}

Chogath Gragas Hecarim JarvanIV Malphite Maokai Nautilus Nunu Renekton Sejuani Udyr Volibear Zac

cho is an Ap bruiser,gragas is a bruiser malphite is a bruiser, j4 is a bruiser,hecarim is a bruiser, renekton/udyr/volibear are bruisers

nautilus/nunu/zac/maokai can't 100-0 an adc with item 3153 item 3035

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

cho is an Ap bruiser,gragas is a bruiser malphite is a bruiser, j4 is a bruiser,hecarim is a bruiser, renekton/udyr/volibear are bruisers

nautilus/nunu/zac/maokai can't 100-0 an adc with item 3153 item 3035

yes they can and it doesn't matter if someone is a bruiser when they build at most one damage item (if even that many) and still destroy ADCs and any other squishy champion in the game while being the tanky monsters they were back then. ADCs being able to build LW and BotRK won't stop them from being 100-0'd by a tank since tanks still take little damage from any ADCs since they are not getting both those item until pretty late into the game and by the time they do get it tanks already built Frozen Heart, Randuins and the like.

Boulderox7 votes

Then that is not any fault but your own, in a meta where high cc and tanks roam the lands, wtf are you doing alone? As an adc you should have your own hulk to protect you, if you get caught out by a strong tank that can do damage as well, that is on you I'm sorry. CC is what destroys adc's and tanks are all about cc.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

Then that is not any fault but your own, in a meta where high cc and tanks roam the lands, wtf are you doing alone? As an adc you should have your own hulk to protect you, if you get caught out by a strong tank that can do damage as well, that is on you I'm sorry. CC is what destroys adc's and tanks are all about cc.

tanks and bruisers in the cinderhulk meta would IGNORE your entire team, go towards you and destroy you while taking next to do damage. You see how Mundo is now? that was every single tank/bruiser in the Cinderhulk meta.

Keep trying to defend one of the most broken metas of the game all you want. There was no variety, you either picked for the late game or hope to god you finished the game fast enough before the tanks/bruisers start getting their items. You picked something that's not tanky in the top lane? good luck having a fun time. You picked anything but a waveclear midlaner? good luck having any sort of fun as you get instantly dove, lose your turrets and there nothing you can do but cry since you aren't able to do ANYTHING. You liked playing Assassins, carry top laners, early game ADCs, mage supports, non-cinderhulk junglers? good luck doing anything productive while you watch your entire base go up in flames with you being unable to do anything about. That was the cinderhulk meta in a nutshell. You either picked 2~3 tanks/bruisers, hyper scaling ADCs and waveclear mids or you won't be having a fun time at all

LankPants9 votes

tanks and bruisers in the cinderhulk meta would IGNORE your entire team, go towards you and destroy you while taking next to do damage.

Then your team is terrible. Tanks and heavy bruisers aren't that sticky, they're super easy to peel off compared to some assassins who just repeatedly dash to their target.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Then your team is terrible. Tanks and heavy bruisers aren't that sticky, they're super easy to peel off compared to some assassins who just repeatedly dash to their target.

super easy to peel? assassin are way easier to peel than tanks who take no damage at all. Tanks aren't sticky? oh sure, all that CC sure doesn't make them sticky. Assassins have ONE shot at getting to you and they need to carefully decide when to go towards you otherwise they die. Tanks in the cinderhulk meta? they gave no damns whatsoever and just ran at your entire team while taking next to no damage and the instant they got to ANY of your squishies they would die. Sorry but assassins when they fail at diving you you can punish them. Cinderhulk meta tanks? they fail and they just walk back like nothing happened and try again in a few seconds or after a quick back

LankPants7 votes

super easy to peel? assassin are way easier to peel than tanks who take no damage at all.

Peeling =/= to killing. Tanks are easier to peel because assassins typically have something to drop focus from themselves and dodge CC. Most assassins have something like Deathmark, Playful/Trickster or even Twilight Shroud to help drop CC threats. Tanks don't have this, you CC a tank and they're off your ADC, they don't have a way to dodge it ever.

Assassins have ONE shot at getting to you and they need to carefully decide when to go towards you otherwise they die.

And if they succeed, you die. Your team often doesn't get very long to react, you don't get very long to react. If an Amumu gets on top of you there's still a good amount of time to react to him. You probably get around 5 seconds before he can solo you out, as opposed to 0.01 seconds(he even reacts in time) if it was an assassin.

When a tank gets on top of you there's time for your team to act, your own tank or your support gets time to peel for you, they can CC the enemy tank so they don't get the time to kill you.

Tanks in the cinderhulk meta? they gave no damns whatsoever and just ran at your entire team while taking next to no damage and the instant they got to ANY of your squishies they would die. Sorry but assassins when they fail at diving you you can punish them. Cinderhulk meta tanks? they fail and they just walk back like nothing happened and try again in a few seconds or after a quick back

So what I'm seeing here is that you don't know how to punish tanks? Tanks are, contrary to popular belief, CC-able and killable. If a tank dives in like a moron you should probably CC them and focus them down, if it truly was a bad time for them to dive in their team won't be able to save them without taking a huge risk of losing the fight.

Jonxx1 votes

Stop linking that, that's old video with old youmuus, which still had crit AND old Last Whisper. It's no longer relevant as any argument about how rengar is op.

LankPants4 votes

Where did I make an argument that Rengar was OP?

My argument was that assassins kill way too quick to allow for any proper focusing or mitigation by teamplay, even if it took Rengar 100x as long it still supports my argument.

Jonxx2 votes

w/e my point is that video you linked is no longer valid, and you shouldn't post it because it's misleading.

LankPants9 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m-abIEMbSc, Happy now?

BetaDude406 votes

they gave no damns whatsoever and just ran at your entire team while taking next to no damage

You really like saying that for some reason.

I mean, CC is pretty powerful and all, but can't you, like, kite or anything? Obviously if you just stand still auto-ing and you let the enemy attack you, you're going to die.

Most of the complaints you have are either fringe cases for heavy bruisers (which, again, unless they catch you out or they extend a LOT of stuff to get to you, like flash, you can kite like no one cares) or simply an over exaggeration of their tankiness or damage.

What you are trying to describe sounds way much more like Season 2 over the Cinderhulk meta. And I agree, Cinderhulk meta wasn't perfect by any means, but god damn I'm sick of the same 3 assassins in every game. The tank meta excelled by bringing out more picks to viability while also keeping the tanks (mostly) in check. Again, there were obvious abuse cases, but for once you could actually play anything you wanted and be decently viable.

If you were having a hard time punishing tanks in that meta, it was probably your fault. I can't think of any situation, save for maybe Shyvanna, where a pure tank could 1v1 an ADC with decent armor pen itemization.

Handin Out Naps4 votes

Didn't the cinderhulk meta just shove out every champion that wasn't a tank? I remember lee being complete garbage durring that time, not sure where you are getting that from. The cinderhulk meta was litterally terrible for everyone that wasn't a tank or vayne.

LankPants21 votes

I remember lee being complete garbage durring that time

Oh poor Lee Sin, he only had a 25% pick rate. How did he function? He was only the most picked jungler by 10% rather than the solid 20% he is now.

Melledoneus3 votes

Now we know the real reason why the Cinderhulk meta ended so soon.

TurquoiseYoshi5 votes

Lee Sin got picked a lot. He took Warrior at the beginning, then tank, then switched to CInderhulk. He was less prominent, sure, but he was still a 2nd tier pick under Sejuani Gragas RekSai.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Lee is never high tier, If people would actually start looking at his winrate instead of pickrate you would realise he is almost never a top tier jungler unless it is in extremely high elo. And don't give me the reason that it's because bad lee players make the winrate low, his winrate at 125+ games is barely 50%.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

I'm talking about pro play. Solo Queue has barely any meta, anything can beat anything because the players are so varied.

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