The guide on never losing to Zoe

Niyume··39 votes·8,886 views

I'm really sick of all the whining and complaining about a champ that's more fair than 80% of the roster, and I don't want another champ I actually enjoy to be nerfed into nonviability, so I'm going to write a very detailed guide for all you whiners -- I doubt you'll read it, but maybe someone will, and they'll beat Zoe, and they'll tell other people.

So, first off, let's rehash a bit on Zoe's kit.


#Passive:#

Any time Zoe uses an ability, her next auto does a little extra magic damage.

  • When she has her passive ready, her left hand will have a little ring of gold sparkles around it.

  • Her passive auto is instant, and goes through things like Yas's W. (Laserssss)

#Q:#

Zoe shoots a star in a direction, and for the next couple seconds, she can redirect it to a new location, dealing damage in a small area upon hitting a unit.

  • This ability only moves in straight lines

  • While there is no limit to how far the star can go, she can only direct it to a location within the original ability's cast range (about)

    • It's about the size of Ori's Q.

#W:#

Any time an enemy champ uses a summoner ability or active item, they leave behind a bubble for ~40 seconds that Zoe can pick up, allowing one use of the summoner spell / active dropped.

  • She can only hold one at a time, and can only hold a spell for about a minute.

  • Sometimes minions will have balloons in their hands, meaning they'll drop a random summoner spell or item active for Zoe (these bubbles only last 20 seconds)

    • Try to zone her off these minions, because she has to last hit them, or the bubble just disappears.

#E:#

Zoe kicks a bubble a set distance in a direction (extending over walls), that gradually slows any enemy unit and eventually puts them to sleep for 2.2 seconds

  • If you get hit while sleeping, you take double damage from the next ability / attack to hit you

    • This damage has a cap, so Veigar isn't just going to hit you for 3,000 damage. The cap late game is ~500 extra damage.
  • If nothing is hit, the bubble pops on the ground and leaves a little puddle that does the same thing to whatever walks into it.

    • If you walk into it... stop reading this guide, because nothing I say will help you.
  • This ability has a serious windup, so just watch for that, and it makes it easy to dodge.

    • Additionally, as Zoe is winding up to kick, she always faces the direction the bubble will go, so dodge accordingly. (She holds the bubble up in the direction it's goinna go)
  • During the windup, Zoe cannot move, so she's easy to pick off if she's trying to use E as she runs away.

#R:#

Zoe teleports to a location for a moment, and then teleports back to where she originally cast from.

  • During this time she can be CCd, but she will always go back to her original cast location, even if you pull her with a Blitz Q or something.

  • While in her ult, Zoe can still attack and cast spells like normal.


So, hopefully you know how her kit works now. But I'm goinna go a bit further than that, and talk about some of the things I hear people complain about a lot -- namely, her Q and her E.


#Dodging Zoe's Q#

So, in order to understand how to dodge Zoe's Q, you have to think about it kind of like Vel'Koz's Q. Don't look at the actual projectile, but look at where it can go. With Vel's Q you have to imagine that right angle splitting off of the first bolt, yeah? So, with Zoe's Q, you have to imagine a straight line connecting it to you, and if there's nothing blocking it in that line, it can potentially hit you. Here's an example of a Yasuo who won't get hit, since he's using his minions like a smart person, and knows that the line is broken.

https://i.imgur.com/pmeZa5z.jpg

Now, anywhere in the red side, Yasuo could be hit. But, since minions have those lovely hitboxes (outlined by black), Zoe's Q cannot get to the other side, and that whooooole side is safe, as shown by the green.

So, if Zoe throws her Q at you, just imagine that blue line connecting you both, and move so that the minions get in the way of the star, and wow, you don't get hit. But do remember that it blows up in an area about as big as Syndra's Q, so don't stand directly on top of your minions. :P

#Dodging Zoe's E#

The big one. The one that all the whiners whine about. The one that's already been nerfed since they whine so much... Zoe's E.

So, I already told you that it has a massive windup, right? And I told you that she ALWAYS faces the direction it's goinna go, right? So, she shouldn't land a close range one on you, or you're just bad at this point.

But what about a long range one? Well, there's a solution to that too: It's called proactive playstyles.

So, here's the area Zoe can hit with her E through a wall mid lane (if shot from around the red X).

https://i.imgur.com/Tb0f6BO.jpg

The green areas are safe, since she either can't reach you or you'd be able to see her at that point. Big area though, huh? So, that's where this whole proactive thing comes into play. Instead of just waiting for her to shoot an E at you, and then you mess up dodging it (then go and cry about how OP she is), you think about where she would shoot it from. Did you see her go topside? Did you see her in bot lane? Think about where she could shoot from, and react ahead of time, making it that much harder for her to hit you.

https://i.imgur.com/ps9151C.jpg

So, in this picture, imagine Zoe went off toplane, and you don't know where she is. Would it make sense to stand near the wall so she can shoot you through it? No. So, stand on the green side, where the minions will block her E for you (with their hitboxes shown in black again).

Now, what did we learn about Zoe's E? Well, it's very telegraphed for one, and it's predictable. So think ahead instead of rushing blindly like an idiot, and you won't get hit by it, wow! Plus it moves pretty slow, so it's easy to dodge anyway.


#Beating Zoe#

So, now you know how to not die to Zoe (or even get hit at all), but how about beating her? Well, you gotta remember she's entirely immobile, she's goinna be playing close to the minion wave so she can reach you with Q, and she's squishy with no sustain.

Soo... someone with heavy poke through minions, or someone who can just all-in and ignore/avoid her E.

Ahri Akali Brand Cassiopeia Diana Ekko Fizz Kassadin Katarina Lissandra Lux Malzahar Morgana Ryze TwistedFate Viktor Yasuo Zed Ziggs Zilean Zyra

These guys all work. My personal picks into her are Liss and Lux, since you just poke her out of existence and dominate the lane. And if you land your combo, she's just dead. If you wanna be a real asshole, play Fiora. If she ever hits you with an E, Q up to her before you fall asleep, and parry in her face -- the stun will trigger your parry and stun Zoe, and then she's a free kill for you. ^^

#If you're still not convinced, give me a situation you struggle with, I'll explain even more.#


Hopefully I can play Zoe in draft every now and then once people realize she's not god tier broken. But, with people being fucking sheep how they are, I really doubt that. She's going to be gutted into obscurity, just like so many other champs.

#If you don't believe me, then I dare you, add me and we'll have a 1v1. If I die EVEN ONCE, then you win. If I get your tower, I win. If you come in here and say Zoe is broken, I'll be adding you, and you're goinna prove how broken she is.

Edit: ... Good God did this thread and my Reddit post blow up.

148 Comments

PePsiLemoNN21 votes

I guess you know better than lots of pro players lol.

Iron Rubric12 votes

Most pro players said she's fun but over powered and shouldnI'm 't exist so...

DracosKasu3 votes

I dont denied she isnt strong but OP I wouldnt say that much. overloaded, yes but that the core identity of certainlyT champ.

Still we cant learn her correctly and can’t learn how to play around her with her current banrate. Still I prefer lane against her then Zed, Malz, Xerath.

TehNACHO4 votes

Didn't a lot of pros think Gnar had no chance in the competitive scene because he was too unreliable?

TheFallenShaw17 votes

Fallen's Guild to never losing to Zoe

Ban Zoe

The end.

See mine is much simpler

GrReaper9615 votes

While there is no limit to how far the star can go, she can only direct it to a location within the original ability's cast range

I like youre guide but this is false. If Zoe moves with her Q, its maximum range will increase until the projectile is 800 units away from her. So she can aim it further if she walks towards you AFTER recasting it.

Unnamed Player312 votes

Before anything else, thanks for the constructive guide. But dude, you GOTTA cut down on your arrogance. At least half of your guide is on how whiners will hate and know nothing but circlejerking (ex. "I doubt you'll read it", "with people being how sheep they are", and MANY MORE); maybe there are haters, but a lot of Zoe hate is well founded. This post tells me you're much worse than them. She has a 70% monthly ban rate in NA (check opgg), is top 10 banned across all elos (check champions.gg or lolking), and was almost permabanned in all-stars in both game modes. Are you honestly saying you know better than mid-high elo players that all ban Zoe, or know better than the PROS? That's just extreme arrogance. Your guide's major gist is on keeping Zoe in sight and staying behind minions to deny her a direct hit. Well, the same can be applied to old nidalee - the next level definition of unhealthiness. You can use your guide to dodge all of the skillshots, but when she eventually hits even one, it will burst you HARD, which makes her both unfun and unfair to play against. Your kit does provide some insight on what to do, but it doesn't make up for the fact that she's very toxic and unfair to play against (not even mentioning the RNG w)

YuGiHo8 votes

Nice Guide, Im sure u are going to be down voted though because people would rather complain that even attempt to change their already established playstyle in order to deal with a new champion bringing new mechanics to the game.

Niyume6 votes

Yeah, and that's why Faker was complaining too - it's something he never got to practice playing against.

I've never once lost lane to a Zoe, and I've never even died to one that didn't have her jungler helping. So if I can pull that off, then anyone can, since I'm only gold 4.

Elipo11 votes

This is what talking out of your ass is. Faker said she is op after stomping hard with Zoe many times in the rift (check youtube, he's played her a lot with great suscess), Not after loosing to her.

Raveolution6 votes

The problem with Zoe is that she has much too low cooldowns, and nothing else. If they made the cooldowns of Q and E 4-5s longer at every skill level she would be almost perfect (That is roughly 2s longer with 40% cdr). I don't have a problem getting hit for 70% of my HP as long as she can't do it every 4s.

Niyume7 votes

If you did that, she wouldn't be viable as a solo laner, and she'd just be pushed out of lane every game (and she already is). Unlike every other mid, she has one damaging / waveclear ability.

Raveolution8 votes

She really would. At level 5 a proper Zoe Q can fully clear the ranged minions in one cast, which is almost as fast if not faster than Taliyah clears, and Taliyah is a pusher. Paddle Star at level 1 has a 7.5s cooldown, which is ridiculous with no cdr. If you're getting bullied out of lane that hard, you are definitely not playing Zoe properly.

TehNACHO5 votes

Zoe at level 5 or Paddlestar at Rank 5?

One sounds reasonable enough (though I'm a Jungle/Top main so meh, context is lost on me), but the latter sounds like a really great way at gimping a Mid Laner from, well being a Mid Laner.

Sir Rouge1 votes

Karma cries in a corner

Azadethe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Rouge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AGJN7UA6,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-12-15T12:03:39.791+0000)

Karma cries in a corner

Karma is actually good vs Zoe. She has time after being E'd to Barrier and run back, either eliminating the Q from hitting her (outrange) or to at least soak a huge portion of it. If Zoe R's forward, karma can punish that too.

RISE Shlack1234 votes

If that's the case, then it just goes to show how poorly designed Zoe is. She has 2 damaging abilities, not one, and her sleep CC is arguably the strongest in the game. Not only is it damn-near guaranteed to put you to sleep, it doubles damage from any source to the target and adds in some true damage.

Creating a burst mage with reliable damage on only half her kit is bound to create a balance nightmare. Zoe was designed into a corner.

Asudurga6 votes

Fiddlesticks is another good counter. His E poke is amazing with his Q countering any cocky Zoe who thinks they can R up to you. Any poke Zoe gives him with a Q can be healed up with W and all you have to do is avoid her E and you'll be safe.

Hitman the great1 votes

i agree, his silence should be able to interrupt her if she wants to q and r in front of u and q again to redirect u will be able to have enough time to react

Yasuicide6 votes

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DemainaNyx1 votes

Or, you know, Yasuo could use his Windwall to avoid getting hit by E. Or you teammate could tank the Q for you, like they do with Caitlyn Ults, since it won't do as much damage to them.

Yasuicide1 votes

[deleted]

Apparently Noob2 votes

If you played Zoe one game you'd know that's complete bullshit. She has a very long cast time on her E, about 0.5 seconds before the spell even appears (no move while cast), and then on top of that there's a travel time, never more than 800 meters from any wall. If you knew these things you could avoid the bubble very easily.

She is free this week. Play her for one game before you start complaining about things that aren't even true.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

the size of her e is anything but fair for the impact it has.

the projectile is also very difficult to see. i noticed that i barely ever see it before it lands on the gound.

the lane phase seems to generally be less of an issue than midgame when she starts to spam the fuck out of her e and constantly puts someone asleep. it also covers a lot of area which makes the thing incredibly forgiving when she misses the direct hit.

clevercc1 votes

It's a giant bright white ball and it bounces once (slowly) before it even hits you that's really a personal problem

sutora36 votes

you forgot the add the edgelordshadow assassinKayn to the list

Sujiren5 votes

Or ban her, 100% counter.

VoraciousX5 votes

The issue honestly is if she even hits one E you're basically dead or discouraged from ever fighting her again until you base. I think she's pretty fair, but there's not a lot of time to actually all in her in lane if you're not someone with high range because of how little time you have between her casts to avoid her poke. I don't think she needs to be nerfed but I do think she needs her E changed to have a longer cooldown with a higher CDR from hitting champions. I made a post about it before but I'll put it here. I usually get about 30% CDR on Zoe, so by max level I have almost a 7 second CD on E if I hit another champion with a 10 second CD if I don't(Not a big difference is it?). I think they need to increase the base cooldown to be like 22/21.5/21/20.5/20 second base CD with a 60% at all ranks CD refund if she hits a champion. This would give more time to react vs a Zoe who missed her E and allow her to fire bubbles everywhere if she didn't. It's more of a buff to good Zoe's and a nerf to bad ones. She's pretty bad in teamfights so this might make it a bit better if she hits those Es. They could undo ALL of the other changes if they just did that one buff/nerf imo because then you could actually feel good when she missed an E rather than "Oh she missed her E, but her Q-passive poke hurts so much that I won't be able to deal enough damage by the time her E is up again to make it an even trade unless I'm someone with really good range". It kind of makes it a noninteractive lane. I feel like this change would make her more fun and possible to play while also making her less annoying to play against(unless she's just good enough to hit all her Es and have bubbles fly everywhere).

Btw with 30% CDR in mind, that comes down to a 5.6 second CDR if she hits a bubble and a 14 second CDR if she doesn't. Huge difference compared to now, which the reset mechanic is hardly noticable. With 40% CDR it could even be nuts(super fun) if you hit Es consistently(4.8 second CDR for hitting an E).

Another thing to note, I once went against a Darius top as Zoe, and I just constantly R>auto'd and backed off to poke him down to kill him. It was the most guaranteed damage with 0 return I've ever done. Not saying it's busted, but you can literally just poke people down from safety with enhanced autos in some situations.

RISE Shlack1235 votes

Your guide is fine, but you have to remember that people aren't upset at Zoe's damage as much as they are upset at her forgiving kit and innate RNG component. She gets active item bubbles far earlier in the game than they were intended, such as Gunblade and Redemption. And she can also pick up a Teleport pre-6, so she can just all-in, lose the trade, and still base because she can suddenly port back to lane.

Zoe's kit isn't overpowered, but it is very unfair. Yes, dodge her skillshots and disrupt her combo and you'll be fine. But the problems are 1) her cooldowns are so low that it doesn't really matter if you stop one combo and 2) her base damage is so high that when she finally does land an E, she'll either kill you or send you back to base, guaranteed.

Zoe isn't fair to play against. Her numbers aren't the problem, as most people have routinely admitted. It's her kit, her cooldowns, and her RNG.

People aren't whining about Zoe. People have legitimate complaints about how toxic it is to play against a champion that breaks so many of League's built-in rules.

Grace Of Kaizen4 votes

I fear she's going to be gutted too. I just made a post about balance changes for her, but in it I added a lot of tuning that could also be used to buff her if she's ever weak. Nice guide, hopefully spreads some awareness.

Niyume5 votes

Oh she probably will be, since people are whining about her. She doesn't really need nerfs, maybe a couple tweaks to make her feel more "fair" to play against, but power-wise she's fine.

And no one is going to read this, so it won't spread anything.

Grace Of Kaizen4 votes

Yeah most of my post was trying to reduce frustration around playing against her. Hopefully Riot doesn't just nerf her and actually tries to make her feel fair ((even though I think she is)). But we all know how that goes...

Niyume6 votes

I actually have fun playing against her. I don't understand why people hate her kit so much -- I really just think it's the popular thing to do right now.

And yeah, Riot likes to just up and kneejerk gut / massively overbuff things. Fully expecting them to ruin her. : /

TheFallenShaw13 votes

its overloaded. if your honest you'll agree. Granted most people don't make full use of it even half the time.

Jet Sett8 votes

If you've got eyes you can see what people dislike about her. It's not the "popular" thing, it's the annoyingly overloaded thing.

TheFallenShaw10 votes

its not that she needs nerfs, just that she shouldnt exist. Riot wasn't suppose to be releasing any teleportation champions after Katrina. atleast thats what they said years ago. Honestly her kit is overloaded like yasou and azir. then she has great damage ratio's to. She's one of those fun idea of a champ but, terrible idea to try and balance into the game. Take Sol for example. tech he should be able to boop they whole enemy team level 1 with one button lore wise. In the real world he's not even a lane bully vs 1 champ.

Hitman the great1 votes

but the better the kit, sometimes it is hard to learn how to properly play it

RISE Shlack12313 votes

That's the thing - she's not really overpowered so much as she's highly unfair to play against. There's too much RNG, her E is too forgiving if you miss, and her cooldowns are far too low.

Problem is with her design and how she relies on 2 spells for all her damage, with a heavy RNG component built into her W. When a champion is designed like this, they cannot be nerfed too hard because it will end up gutting them. But when they are balanced heavily around RNG and low cooldowns, they are extremely unfair and frustrating to play against.

Zoe was designed into a corner. She can't have too much done to her kit because it will gut her. She can't be buffed because she's already insanely strong when she lands her combo. And she is able to fire her burst combo off far too often.

Hibeki9 votes

This is all Certainly T champions in a nutshell. All of them.

2Charmnot2Charm4 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller2 votes

This isn't a "Zoe is balanced" thread though, it's an informative thread on how to take advantage of her mechanics to out-play her.

Please take your frustration with those sorts of threads out in those sorts of threads instead of crapping on a perfectly helpful thread such as this one.

2Charmnot2Charm1 votes

it's an informative thread on how to take advantage of her mechanics to out-play her.

I didn't learn anything new from this thread infact everything he said in that post could have been learned from 1 game playing vs her (besides the numbers on her E , which he is also wrong about it being only 500 damage cap, just having 200 ap is enough to make that cap 600 lmao.)

There are a lot of tricks with zoe that the op didn't even mention that would be really helpful for zoe players to abuse and people playing vs her to know about it.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Carries U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AGJN7UA6,comment-id=001900000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T18:17:31.360+0000)

I didn't learn anything new from this thread infact everything he said in that post could have been learned from 1 game playing vs her (besides the numbers on her E , which he is also wrong about it being only 500 damage cap, just having 200 ap is enough to make that cap 600 lmao.)

Some people do not learn the same way you do. Some of us benefit from somebody writing up an entire post about it. And others of us simply enjoy reading an analysis such as this.

There are a lot of tricks with zoe that the op didn't even mention that would be really helpful for zoe players to abuse and people playing vs her to know about it.

Then why don't you share them and enlighten us all? C'mon, don't be a Scrooge/Grinch. Don't be that guy who says, "this sucks and I could do it better, but I'm not going to."

Niyume5 votes

I find it funny that people can just pretend they're infallible because they're a higher rank. Even though I may not be diamond or something like that, I've got over 11,000 games in League, and I've been playing games since I was oh, 2 years old or so. So, I understand how the game works, probably a lot better than you do, and I do well myself if you look up my history (this account is in fact a smurf, too, though my main is only gold 4).

The other funny part is that, with my MMR on my main account, I often play with plats (in ranked), and I play with everything up to diamond in norms and often win lane against said high ELO players.

So... you're welcome to sit there and preen, but until you bring me some evidence that shows how broken she is, I'm just going to ignore you. If you'd like, you can play Zoe against me, and I'll record it for everyone to watch. Kill me just once, and you win. Should be easy if you're such a god tier high ELO player and all that, right?

Doctor Dyment8 votes

Your arrogance knows no bounds sir. Try to cut back on talking down to people and instead phrase it to make actual dialogue and I guarantee you that more people will respect your ideas. Stop acting like you stand on a podium above everyone else and realize you're actually eye level.

Giggling Granny1 votes

Yeah i guess i will take your words and not the words from Bjersen iqutipie scara and other pros that when they played ZOE they were all saying this champion is broken..

And who can forget the 3 times bubble stun on a tank from scara again and again..the moment the enemy was over the sleep durration one more bubble come and then again the same...

Much counterplay

But sure now that you teach us how to play we should replace all pros with you because all pros are just bronze noobs who cant dodge right? yeah go teach them yo

Niyume1 votes

So... in order to understand why the pros call her broken, you first have to stop worshiping them and realize they're just regular players.

Now, when a new champ comes out, no one really has any idea on what they're capable of, or how to play against them, right? This is the same in high ELO, just like it is in bronze. In high ELO, mechanics will be a little tighter, macro play will be much better, and team coordination will be better. That doesn't mean that every challenger is a microplay god, though (even in LC$), and it doesn't mean every bronzelord is necessarily terrible at playing the game.

So Zoe comes out. She has a lot of damage potential, and isn't autos like the last several damage-oriented champs were. People aren't used to dodging her skillshots, and they don't know where to look for her E. So people stomp the enemy team because of that, and people call her broken.

Doesn't mean she's broken at all. Just means people haven't gotten to practice against her thanks to her 70% ban rate. Do people still call Camille broken? People said that as long as she has her ult, she'll be broken.

Dead Anime Dad1 votes

Anytime I lose to her it is usually because I start having ptsd flashbacks to original nidalee. Horrible, dark times truely.

Niyume2 votes

Zoe and the original Nid are nothing alike. Nid just chucked spears from the fog of war and got kills whenever she landed them. Zoe is almost always in vision. The only time she isn't, she really can't do much from landing the sleep, since she has far less range.

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