Was this what Riot wanted for jungle

Yekler·Dec 24, 2014·0 votes·853 views

I by far am no expert but  without ever testing what would happen if they Just made one change like remove the abuse of feral flare and let the jungle position thrive, it seems now to be a punishment instead.It is impossible to keep up LVL wise and gold wise in jungle on average sure the one super meta fit of the month might become even gold and lvl wise on a poor team but not most of the time.The days of even dreaming to carry from it are long gone.

I really wish to hear others overall thoughts from experienced jungle mains on if you feel like a crosswalk guard in comparison with non feral flare using types and pre quill coat days.

Ie. if they had left it all alone and feral flare abuse never existed was it more viable to more champs to actually have impact on games in a balanced way than it is now. I cant help gut feel like fifth wheel when on first trip i farm till three get in two kills back and buy cover steal a buff then look at team mates all got a lvl or even two on me on a champ considered a fast clear pretty sad to me.

26 Comments

TehNACHODec 24, 20141 votes

I like it.

It's not season 4 where plainly anyone can jungle, but because of how our Jungle items designed, there are literally only 3 or 4 top Jungle picks at a time. The system built in place can, in theory, host up to 16 viable Junglers who all abuse their respective item combo well. While I'm sure it will never actually get to that point, just the promise that it could happen is enough to keep me more than interested in competitive Jungling.

Furthermore, it actually goes out of its way to define who are actual Junglers and who are not. As a reminder, it's still the pre-season, so a lot of necessary balance and tuning checks have either been overlooked or plainly not been made yet, but it's very clear that the champions who can either take care of themselves in the Jungle or are super strong at taking advantage of opportunities are very well fit for the new Jungle. In other words, once again unlike Season 4 where anyone can jungle, there is a very clear pool of champions who are designed for the Jungle. This also means, for the game's long term balance, Riot can actually balance around the Jungle. We don't have to have nearly as much crossfire (for example, if we nerf a Jungler for being too strong, you accidentally nerf every other role they play (Wukong)). It's so much easier to just look at Junglers for what they do.

Just remember, right now, we're in the preseason. Balance is going to be shit, and due to how big the Jungle changes are, this was guaranteed to happen. Just wait for season 5 to officially start (and maybe 3 or 4 patches) and just wait on the promises made by the possible balance capabilities our new Jungle and Jungle items allow.

Leti the YetiDec 24, 20142 votes

{quoted}

I like it.

It's not season 4 where plainly anyone can jungle, but because of how our Jungle items designed, there are literally only 3 or 4 top Jungle picks at a time. The system built in place can, in theory, host up to 16 viable Junglers who all abuse their respective item combo well. While I'm sure it will never actually get to that point, just the promise that it could happen is enough to keep me more than interested in competitive Jungling.

how the fk is that a good thing? isnt imposing a meta and limiting diversity against what riot stands for well, i guess riot did open up jungling to range junglers from lulu to teemo, they can all jungle now .- .

TehNACHODec 24, 20141 votes

Not exactly. If you looked at the season 4, you can see the results of what happens when you try to allow everybody to jungle.

Hint hint Evelynn Elise LeeSin

Leti the YetiDec 24, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Not exactly. If you looked at the season 4, you can see the results of what happens when you try to allow everybody to jungle.

Hint hint

I'm not seeing the problem

TehNACHODec 24, 20141 votes

Did you see the competitive scene approximately halfway through season 4?

Cale017Dec 24, 20141 votes

I mean, those three are all supposed to be junglers in the first place. I'm not really seeing what you're going for. A better analogy would be the temporary rise of Twitch jungle in season 4 after Feral Flare launched, and how Wukong and Yi started shifting more towards being in the jungle than in lanes.

TehNACHODec 24, 20141 votes

You misunderstood. Were you aware of the competitive scene about halfway through Season 4?

Cale017Dec 24, 20141 votes

Yes, I was. But I don't see how you're saying that Lee Sin, Evelynn, and Elise have anything to do with people trying to jungle with champs who weren't designed for the jungle. All three of them were specifically designed with the jungle in mind. I very vividly remember the days when Elise was a ban pick, Lee Sin has pretty much ALWAYS been strong, and I even remember the second coming of the Evelynn... but that's got nothing to do with non meta junglers.

TehNACHODec 24, 20141 votes

Ahh, then here's the point.

It's less that they were jungling, it's more that they were the only champions at all that ever jungled during season 4.

Well at least about halfway through, anyway. They quickly moved around when all three were nerfed.

This is what actually was the problem with the old season's jungle. It doesn't matter that Spirit of the Elder Lizard is almost designed for every ad champion in the game, the fact that it was only a single item means that only one, maybe two champions can fill its niche. It doesn't matter that Spirit of the Spectral Wraith was designed for almost every AP champion in the game, the fact that it was a single item means that only one, maybe two champions can fill its niche. I mean, who knows what the fuck that third spirit stone item was but you should see my point when you compare and contrast the casual scene to the competitive scene.

The casual scene was filled to the brim with non meta junglers. Because the Season 4 jungle items, even though there were so few (3 at the time I'm talking about (Elder Lizard/Spectral Wraith/(Old) Ancient Golem)), the items were designed to complement as many champions as possible, this meant that any champion was allowed to jungle even decently, allowing every champion to jungle.

Whereas the competitive scene was literally dominated by 3 champions from well over 100. Because the Season 4 jungle items, despite being designed for as many champions as possible, only existed in three forms, this meant that any champion who used/abused that given Jungle item the best or happened to be the best in the Jungle using that item will dominate the niche, and at most allow maybe 3 viable junglers.

tl;dr: I'm not saying Lee Sin, Elise, or Evelynn were the three stooges that made it into the competitive scene. I'm saying that because of how Season 4's items were designed, these were the only three champions that ever showed up. This means that, contradictingly, the more you try to allow everybody to jungle, the less viable champions there are. In this case, only 3 (Elise, Evelynn, and Lee Sin).

Cale017Dec 24, 20141 votes

They were far from the only ones who ever jungled in season 4. 4 is when I learned to jungle, and I actually learned to jungle with 70% of other junglers before I touched any of those three and did really well for myself. Nocturne and Volibear, I found, I was able to do consistently well with during a time when neither of them were considered particularly strong. Hell, Nocturne is still who I fall back on when I just feel like letting go and doing my own thing and I still do well with him almost every time, failing lanes that I just plain can't save. It happens.

The third spirit stone item was Spirit of the Ancient Golem, and the fact that you can't remember that just sort of makes me wonder how much you really paid attention. Especially since you mention Elise's strength during season 4, when that's actually considered the smarter choice for her over Spectral Wraith. In fact, Spectral Wraith was such a terrible item for AP junglers, who already had meh sustain and were usually forced to powerfarm just to get to level 6 to do anything (looking at you, Diana), but it also then forced them to remain in the jungle longer to get it fully stacked, or to sacrifice potential damage by focusing more on ganks. It was an awful item that filled almost no niche aside from AP scalings that were filled much better by almost any other item.

And Elder Lizard applying to almost every AD champion? By that logic it applied to every champion who ever right clicked a minion. In all honesty it only ever really in any full extent to caster focused junglers like Vi or Lee Sin, who could make a little AD go a long way. AA reliant junglers screamed out for something that gave them the sort of synergy their laning counterparts thrived from. Shyvana, Yi, Warwick, Skarner, Nocturne, Udyr, Xin Xiao, Aatrox, all of these just off the top of my head, all of whom do better by mixing attack speed and AD instead of just straight AD. Elder Lizard was only partially effective on them, forcing them to spend extra gold to get the core stats they needed from other items instead of giving them a healthy starting point.

Honestly dude, it seems like you're tunnel visioning hard on how season 4 played out. As someone who actually learned to jungle over the course of season 4 I saw so much variety it was astounding, especially after Feral Flare came out... although that wasn't the kind of variety I necessarily wanted to see at that point.

TehNACHODec 24, 20141 votes

You misunderstood again. The competitive scene was dominated by those three. The casual scene was dominated by every champion in the game. I literally wrote it out for you in the last two paragraphs before the tl;dr. I didn't say that those three were the only ones that ever jungled in season 4, I said those were the three that dominated competitive games.

That was also a joke, hence the word "Fuck", and then later calling out the Spirit of the Ancient Golem by name later in the post.

And I did call out the Spirit of the Ancient Golem, by name, in the post. I even specify I was talking about the old one, so don't be a dick.

Also, I very specifically specified that the time period I'm talking about was the one where only the three Spirit Stone items existed. Before Feral Flare. Hint hint.

You're just misunderstanding literally everything I wrote. Did you even read the post? I mean, I can forgive not understanding a joke, but really, I even went back and made sure I wrote again that I was clearly talking about two completely separate things when you compared Season 4's casual scene to its competitive scene, how did you still not understand that?

EDIT: Here, let's make this as clear as day.

Casual Jungling was at its best Season 4. Items were almost specifically designed to allow as many Junglers as possible, increasing diversity.

Competitive Jungling was at its worst Season 4. Because the niches created by the Jungle items were few and far between, the Champion pool surrounding the jungle followed suit, meaning that there'd only be very few champions ruling the competitive scene, which there were ( Evelynn Elise LeeSin )

Also, I found a timeline of Season 4's items. I meant to write after Flare's nerfs, apparently.

Cale017Dec 24, 20141 votes

The competitive scene was NOT dominated by just those three. They were power picks but they were not the only picks. Being power picks does not mean dominating, it means that they were strong compared not only to other junglers, not only because of itemization options, but because of the ENTIRE meta at the time. Who was strong in other lanes. What they were building. What sort of teamcomps were popular. What sort of strategies were being more widely used. If you're trying to make it out as though you have some incredibly deep understanding of the season 4 meta, take it ALL into account. There are a lot more factors that go into making a champion strong beyond their individual prowess, specifically with junglers. It doesn't matter how good a jungler is if they aren't meshing well with the team, and between the swirling vortex of variables going into those three, along with high level player's abilities to use them not only for their own benefit but for the benefit of their teammates as well, is what made them strong. Not because Elise had 7 abilities. Not because Lee Sin has every effect under the sun. And certainly not because Evelynn has a near permanent stealth mechanic. Picking any of the three of them did not guarantee wins. Smart playing, both the jungler and their teammates understanding what those three brought to a team and how to capitalize on it, did.

I find it odd that you would try to categorize by the competitive scene but when talking about the itemization choices start referring to all applicable roles, which would encompass the casual scene more than the competitive scene by a far cry.

I'm well aware that it was a joke. But not even mentioning its use when it was a core item on one of the people you're saying was utterly dominating is counter to what your argument overall is. It shows a certain lack of understanding even if it's just a joke by not bothering to go over it's strengths or weaknesses in a critical sense. If you're trying to get into the nitty gritty then do so without hemming over anything important.

Yes, and I pointed out that your saying that the time before Feral Flare having Elder Lizard be the item that catered to all AD champions just wasn't accurate, because it failed to cater to what half of the jungle champions who utilize AD actually needed. It was their only option, but that didn't mean it was giving them what they needed in any effective manner. Once again you have applied an item that only really applied to one of the three champions you mentioned in earnest to the entirety of AD champions, most of whom were not in the competitive scene that you keep reiterating you're focused on. I find it odd that you would try to categorize by the competitive scene but when talking about the itemization choices start referring to all applicable roles, which would encompass the casual scene more than the competitive scene by a far cry.

Hint hint.

And in case that isn't enough, I'm saying that your argument lacks focus. Pretty much entirely. First it's just competitive, then you're comparing to everyone. Then it's back to competitive, then another general statement about everyone. You can't really get on someone else for being detailed about the things you're saying that are inaccurate when you're failing to settle on one route or the other.

TehNACHODec 24, 20141 votes

The problem is that you appear to be misunderstanding literally everything I say before firing off on a tangent.

Hilariously, I imagine you trying to justify your argument in reply to this post, then firing off on a tangent about mine.

Cale017Dec 24, 20141 votes

Once again you've failed to address any of the points I've brought up to you in reference to how your argument fails on a closer analysis.

Your initial statement was that somehow the non meta junglers had something to do with Lee Sin, Elise, and Evelynn's dominating power in the jungle, but just by that statement alone you're acknowledging the casual scene more than the competitive scene because it was only in the casual scene that you had people risking non meta picks. Your FIRST statement about all of this directly contradicts the point that you're very haphazardly trying to drive home. Pros weren't playing jungle Ashe, casual players were. Pros were still playing the standard picks like Jarvan, VI, Amumu, Udyr, the rest of them. In fact, Elise, Evelynn, and Lee Sin probably saw LESS play in the pro scene than the rest of the jungle line up BECAUSE they were very near to the top of the ban list for competitive matches.

I hope to god you never have to hold a hammer because I feel much more sorry for those around you than for the nail you're aiming at.

TehNACHODec 24, 20141 votes

Wow, you actually did it.

Jesus I was being hypocritical with that last comment, why did you actually do it.

Also, putting this out there, Amumu and Udyr were never picked or banned in many (I think all?) LCS games, and Vi even had a few dead periods. Where are you getting these guys from?

Cale017Dec 24, 20141 votes

I didn't say that they were heavily played, or that they were heavily banned. But they still showed up because they still offered a lot to their team. And outside of the LCS, Vi and Udyr were strong solo queue jungle choices that pros used while streaming because of how powerful they were as individual champions who had relatively simple kits that could mesh well with almost any team comp.

And I repeat myself, you have failed to address any of the inconsistencies I have pointed out. Trying to turn this entire thing into one big joke does nothing to get back to the point, which you're avoiding, and trying to drag me through the mud doesn't make you look any better for it. Especially when nothing I've said has been a tangent, as all of my points have been based on the points that you brought up. I'm being thorough, not running on non sequiturs. You can't even address direct challenges to your statements.

The long and short of this is that instead of actually addressing points that you're too tunneled into your own to see that you yourself brought up, you've created a debate environment where nothing can be done as you've reduced yourself to insults over interesting discussion. It's 3:30 in the morning for me, and honestly I've stayed up way longer than I cared to given that I work in the morning.

It's been fun, but this discussion is clearly over. Have a good night, and may your junglers camp your lanes.

TehNACHODec 24, 20141 votes

No...no, Amumu and Udyr didn't even show up (at least not Jungle #SupportAmumu).

You're just lying to yourself at this point. I mean this:

{quoted}

The problem is that you appear to be misunderstanding literally everything I say before firing off on a tangent.

Hilariously, I imagine you trying to justify your argument in reply to this post, then firing off on a tangent about mine.

is literally troll bait, and not only did you take it, you continued the argument.

If you could please stop trying to suck your own dick for a second here, you could stop pretending like you've "won" this "argument".

Which I'd honestly say is more just a complete clusterfuck of misunderstandings from you at this point. Seriously why did you take the bait.

EDIT: Oh, that's interesting. There's a reply limit before it just starts putting new posts under the old.

Cale017Dec 24, 20141 votes

Not really. THey're all for experimentation, but for the sake of being competitive some champions are designed more for some roles over others. You don't see ADC Ahri's or tank Twitches, do you? Why not? Is it because Riot limits diversity, or simply because they're better suited and more effective in other roles? The jungle should be treated the same way. It shouldn't be such a passive experience that anyone can AFK farm it during the early game and start ganking at 6. It should take as much concentration and attention as laning. But instead of having a human player to contend with, now you have more difficult monsters.

Cale017Dec 24, 20141 votes

Hey there! Jungle main here, and I just want to say that no... no it really isn't. Even if you're playing a jungler who has a bit of a rougher time and can't quite afford to gank as much early one due to low health, it isn't that hard to keep up in levels and gold. Especially since junglers are now getting extra gold for using smite, and laners are being discouraged from taking gold from their junglers by getting a reduced amount.

Granted, there are a few junglers that are ruling the roost right now. Anyone with extremely high sustain or the ability to stay in the jungle for a long period of time, Lee Sin, Warwick, Yi, champions like that, have the ability to clear their jungle reasonably fast while keeping their health high enough to safely lay down some ganks whereas other junglers might have slightly higher clear speeds but take more damage, or might be able to take a bit less damage but clear a bit slower. The balance of power is definitely off right now, but that isn't because of abuse from items like Feral Flare.

In all honesty Feral Flare, and it's spiritual successor in Devourer, were much needed changes. They came out with a bit too much power early on, especially with Skirmisher's on hit true damage, but once they got peeled back they're not too terrible anymore. A lot of junglers honestly needed an item like that, specifically the ones who are more based around auto attack reliant builds. Nocturne, Shyvana, Master Yi, Warwick, Udyr to a lesser extent, Aatrox, Skarner, even Volibears were able to use them to get a little edge in damage over the competition and then build straight tank... or at least I did to pretty consistent success haha. A few junglers went wild with them, Udyr, Yi, and Warwick all come to mind, but the idea of an item that caters more specifically to AA reliant champs than what Elder Lizard, or more recently Warrior, would give is a welcome addition that opens up a lot of new build paths for those types of junglers.

You can still play any champion and have a large impact on how the game plays out, even if they aren't particular power picks. A LARGE part of learning how to be a good jungler is having an innate feel for the flow of a match and how you can influence it. It's more than just the strength of the abilities of your champion, it's the strength of your abilities as a player. Warding is more important than ever now, not that it ever wasn't, and objective control is a legitimate concern with the new buffs on Dragon. You simply can't afford not to give up such a vital strategic tool anymore. The jungle is a lot more harsh as well now, but then again I feel that it fits thematically. Sure you should be able to jungle with any champion, but that doesn't mean that every one of them SHOULD, and those that are made specifically to do so will have the advantage that they should for the same reasons that taking a mage to the bottom lane doesn't tend to end well early on, or taking a support top has been beaten back into submission. The jungle shouldn't be a cakewalk, it should be something that you have to actively focus on instead of being able to afk farm, something you have to change your strategies as a player to overcome.

For example, my pattern with Diana used to be taking W first, then Q and E, and maxing Q for the extra damage. It's how I did well. but now if I jungle with her I have to modify that to focus at least one or two extra points in W early, so basically W Q W E W max Q, only using Q to set up for ganks and not necessarily for damage, so that the extra shield strength gets me through in the jungle. And what do you know? I've found that even without a mass amount of spellvamp or lifesteal she's actually staying much healthier than my other jungle champions, I can safely go blue, wolves, raptors, golems, red, before having to back while most of my other dedicated junglers have a hard time with blue, wolves, raptors, and by having to be much more careful about my Qs it's forced me to learn new angles of entry for ganks and to become MUCH better about landing it, predicting where enemies are going to walk or try to move and cornering them in.

The new jungle, however hard it is, has made me a better jungler because it's forced me to use my abilities to think on my feet and adapt, which are basic skills that any jungler should have.

If you're hitting level three and having to back, you're at about the same place as most junglers are, and after getting a few kills you shouldn't be behind in level all that much, if at all. In fact I'd venture to say that you should be ahead if you have two kills that early on and are playing a fast clearing jungler who can dive back in and make up for lost time. I'm not sure what is holding you back, but perhaps you should take another look at your jungle routes and try and time yourself in matches to set up benchmarks. Perhaps you're waiting in the river too long for ganks? I wouldn't be able to tell you without watching you play for certain, but I can assure you that keeping up in level isn't that difficult. Junglers usually tend to be about a level behind going into midgame if they haven't gotten many kills or assists, but that's very rarely a difficulty as proper ganks can set you up for success through superior numbers and positioning all the same.

That's just my take on it, take what you will from it. I hope I've been at least some help, and if you have any questions regarding jungling or champions you'd like to try out I'd love to help you.

YeklerDec 24, 20141 votes

I do see some really promising things. Like mid and Jungle players working together as a roam team to dominate control of the jungle may play out well we will see I suppose.Yet I am skeptical I suspect at lower non set team play Jungle will be for buffs then take lanes cs in the selfish yolo q world we all spend time in.The real teams will always make something interesting out of whatever mess they are in but when I see aggressive lcs. players relegating their jungle style to cdr and maxing web first I become heartbroken for the old times.

I mainly base my point form Elise perspective She was not one of the feral flare freaks Yi and others was viable powerful jungle champ and at one point was also quite good lane champ they nerfed her q made her lane very hard and somewhat irrelevant. Then they tried to entice tank Jungle types with the item changes and monster scale exp and gold changes (quill coat patch) taking the life steal off the Machete and removing the viable stone to Gollumn path made her not nearly as strong in the jungle role.

Why didn't they just add one item or a new path for slow clear type second entry item with re gen instead of steal on it. So within 6 months a great champ went from viable in nearly all roles to good at one and poor at the others.

I do not understand them sometimes it is almost an ego like thing we made this feral flare stack mechanic and we cannot tone it down a step at a time maybe a max limit on stacks.

I have not messed with all the options in the new jungle but it still seems like a band aid factory exploded to fix a simple cut in the past. Refinement must not be what they are after and the company name sort of signifies it for me Riots are chaotic non refined uncontrolled thoughtless occurrences. Alas I think I finally understand I am the problem seeking order in pure chaos!

Cale017Dec 24, 20142 votes

I'm not sure where you're coming from with Elise. In my eyes they pulled back her ability to effectively 2v1 in a solo lane, and refined her role as a slightly tanky jungler who excels at taking out lone targets. She was very much turned into a spider safe in her own web. If you were alone, there was no escape. If you had a friend hopefully you could wiggle out safely.

I'm not sure where you saw Lifesteal on Machete, but I don't recall that ever being there. At least not in the time since I learned to jungle.

I agree that the tanky, slower clearing junglers need some help. Perhaps Juggernaut should have an added effect where it reflects a certain amount of monster damage back onto them. It wouldn't make them any stronger in champion interactions, which would be pretty suckish, but it would immensely help their clear times.

The Feral Flare stack mechanic quickly became the telling point between a good jungler and a selfish one. Selfish junglers would sit in their jungle stacking a Flare up to insane amounts at the expense of letting their laners get utterly destroyed. You can't really carry a match when your entire team is behind and the enemy is teabagging your inhibs no matter how high you stack that Flare. The good junglers were the ones who very quickly adapted to the changes and realized that you could get a Flare stacked as fast, or faster, by balancing your ganks with your clears. I can't tell you how many times I was already working on my 4th or 5th FF stack with Nocturne off of kills and assists while my powerfarming enemy jungler was hitting the 22 or 23 stack point on their Wriggle's Lantern. Try not to blame Flare for the lack of skill of the player. It's not a car's fault when it gets in a wreck, it's because the person in control didn't know what they were doing on or off the road.

The new jungle certainly needs some heavy tweaking, but that's to be expected with any change. Right now heavy sustain junglers are a bit too dominant, and tank junglers need some serious help, especially considering that their jungle item is the only one that isn't WILDLY over-efficient for the cost. All in all though it's been a positive change, and junglers now have to focus a bit more heavily on their mechanics while farming early than being able to essentially afk farm the first ten minutes of a match and start ganking at level 6.

YeklerDec 24, 20141 votes

The old machete pre quill coat i forgot the patch number sorry had life steal on it like a Dorans blade does.The tanky build path for Elise was Machete into Spirit stone Into Spirit of ancient gullum that had tenacity health and armor on it. The root of the spirit stones life steal was the Machete I am talking about.If you don't recall it then you were not in the jungle early season 4 late season 3.

In the state of the game I Was and still am referring to Feral flare was a result from wiggles lantern and turned into it from gathering stacks.This was the chosen item path for auto attack heavy champs in the jungle.

I do realize she was a bit over powered In that time period as were feral flare users and lee sin.But to change the starting item to regeneration and have it be so low only those with very good self sustain come out able to hunt players at lvl three and at that time not fix what was abused at that time was IMO not smart thing to do. Nobody abused machete all jungler's had to start with it.Yes Elise still has very good sustain But frankly the added cost and the regeneration it has on it now is so low to take advantage of it one has to be a very low damage Slow clear champ.

The meta now is so messed up in a different way is all it was never perfect but it was exciting Lets face it Moakai Jungle and Nunu both are relevant as would be Karma or even vieger but it is not very exciting to play early on.

I honestly do not see Elise In that time frame being as out of whack as Pantheon Shaco or warwick is now we could have had more variety less stale boring meta had it been left alone Item wise.

I like the new smite doing different things and other changes.But again with mobility being king and slow pondering thank being goal to bring back in jungle i feel sorry for traditional tank top lane dies with it.

YeklerDec 24, 20141 votes

Your take is what I asked for and thank you for it. I do agree with what you said. Except why should the 5th wheel position have to compare its lvl gold numerical value with only the 5th wheel position. A perfectly played Jungle by a very skilled jungle player at 15 min mark or latter should become as relevant as the players play was champion numerical strength wise.

Even at the highest lvls this is not what is happening Decent even mid lane no kills no deaths out scales a well played plus kill farm his rear off waste no time brilliantly played jungle come mid late game when they Truly deserve to become the carry it is not happening.

What is happening is at best they are very relevant in team fights J4 and others late game but they are usually far behind in both gold and lvls till cap when it matters not.

Cale017Dec 24, 20141 votes

A perfectly played jungle by a very skilled jungler at 15 minute mark or latter IS as relevant as the other plays play in champion strength. A jungler's strength comes in their ability to work with their team, not necessarily their ability to 1v1 anyone on the map, unless you're playing a jungler who's job is specifically that. And even then those junglers usually excel by punishing players who are caught out alone like Nocturne, Lee Sin, or Elise.

This IS what's happening. Hell, did you see the LCS matches at the end of season 4? The junglers pretty much decided the championship. Those Jarvan plays MADE me learn Jarvan, and I usually don't pay attention to pros and prefer to learn on my own. The jungle is every bit as strategically important as it used to be before the jungle got updated. But now it's relying more on junglers knowing what to do with what they have, which is something that they SHOULD know how to do as jungling is an advanced role. I daresay it's the hardest role to play short of being a hopeful support with a crappy ADC.

Sorry man, but they're relevant in so many other ways that you just aren't seeing. My Shyvana jungle is relevant as I shut down the enemy jungler by powerfarming my jungle and then theirs. My Skarner jungle excels as soon as he hits level 6 by basically guaranteeing at least one kill anytime I gank. My Volibear jungle can walk into an overextended lane at level 3 or 4, Q E an enemy laner and lay into him while the support locks them down and the ADC finishes them off. My Nocturne jungle is relevant during the early and mid game by applying much needed pressure to lanes and picking out stragglers who overextend or who I have brief vision of to completely rip them to pieces with the sort of voracity that only a dark being from the most horrific visions of mankind's deepest nightmares can bring to bear as each slice tears through flesh, bone, and sinew as though they were nothing more than butter and his blades a hot knife, laughing to the high heavens and the low hells as gold rains down from above and blood soaks the ground belo--

aherm

Sorry. I quite enjoy Nocturne.

Anyways, my point here is that every jungler is still relevant. But now they're as relevant as you, as a player, make them. Not simply based on how powerful they are individually, but how well you can slot them into the team. Think of junglers less as a fifth wheel, and more as the glue that holds a team together.