The real reason tanks and supports will never be balanced

i cant move wtf·Aug 9, 2018·5 votes·2,202 views

They're too braindead to be fun to play more than occasionally for anyone that takes the game seriously. Anybody that plays ranked on average cares as much about mastering some aspect of the game as they do about winning. Pure tanks and supports just don't offer much in the form of mastery. Buffing the raw stats of these classes to get people to play them instead of addressing the core issue of their boring and uninspiring design is just as braindead as the champions themselves.

If you make these champions fun and raise the skill ceiling of the class as a whole, they will automatically get more play without needing to overtune them.

Every class should have easy and difficult champions. There should be no braindead classes in the first place.

74 Comments

RookPusherAug 9, 201811 votes

I wildly disagree. I love both tanks and supporting and a base stat increase will help slightly, but what they need are utility buffs. The issue with raw stat increases is that if you're a tank with no battlefield control then people just ignore you.

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

You love both of these classes, therefore you have a vested interest in people not thinking they're braindead to protect your ego. Hate to break it to you but these classes are indeed braindead, with some exceptions like Thresh, now Pyke, maybe Sion to some extent.

AdeJBugAug 9, 20182 votes

so what you're saying is, ppl that have most first hand experience with these classes and will most likely come and defend them with their extensive knowledge... should just be ignored, cus ALL are biased :> sounds like you're biased against such players yourself and will ignore them no matter what, whether what they say is pro or contra, or rather true and insightful, or false and wrong. I'm sorry, why did you make this thread, again?

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

I've played these champions many times. I know what they're about. I don't need others to tell me they're hard when I know they're not from direct experience. ADC and mid require you to work for your lead and you better not misposition or walk into the wrong unwarded bush or you just threw the game. As a tank all you have to do is exist until teamfighting happens, doesn't matter if you fed in lane, and then you get gifted more stats than than the non-tanks on the enemy team that you can use to kill them with or just chain CC them until your team does.

AdeJBugAug 9, 20181 votes

Lemme just quote you there for a bit, cus you seem to have opposing opinions about smth: " And assassins are only braindead when their damage is high enough that they don't have to hit their abilities to kill you." and then " ADC and mid require you to work for your lead and you better not **misposition **or walk into the wrong unwarded bush or you just threw the game." You do realize those are connected. Right? right?...

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

Assassins may very well be overtuned and frankly I don't know Riot's reasoning for this since people play assassins even if they're trash. But that's besides the point to me, the assassin and marksman class have a better assortment of simple/complex champions than the tank and support class do.

AdeJBugAug 9, 20181 votes

So you're saying now they DON'T need to work for their lead? they're just overtuned and can AA u to death without a brain or abilities?

Hard to follow you.

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

Yeah they mostly have point and click abilities or huge AOE skillshots. Pair that with the fact they don't need items to out-scale and can feed in lane and still be relevant and you have the current state of tanks.

AdeJBugAug 9, 20181 votes

are you still talking about assassins? huge aoe skill shots?

HethaleanAug 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1T5T5Mm,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T16:29:14.481+0000)

You love both of these classes, therefore you have a vested interest in people not thinking they're braindead to protect your ego. Hate to break it to you but these classes are indeed braindead, with some exceptions like Thresh, now Pyke, maybe Sion to some extent.

You seem to hate them. How can you be sure you're not as biased as you think RookPusher is? There are quite a few supports other than those three that are not braindead.

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

I don't though. I'd love if when in champ select I see our team needs a tank I could pick a flashy one that I could master over time but that just doesn't exist because the tank class is "the noob-friendly class." I don't see why the class has to be relegated to this status, is Riot that bereft of creativity? I see no reason every class can't have about the same mix of easy and difficult champions. That's just my opinion.

AdeJBugAug 9, 20182 votes

safeR does not equal easier. as for supports, why do you think they're 90% of autofill for so many seasons? why do you think autofill exists to begin with?

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

Because historically the champions that have been created for that role aren't fun/interesting/high skill cap. There are some exceptions like I mentioned, but not to the extent of other roles/classes.

AdeJBugAug 9, 20182 votes

it seems to me you pick exceptions to prove a point and change your mind just to disagree with whoever you're replying to, that doesn't do anyone any good. we all agree here that there are exceptions for all classes, specially in different game modes. hat you're claiming is in the tank or support area, the exception is the rule, and that is not simply the case. you've given one example, namely rammus, we all agree that that is an exception. but that's as far as it all goes.

KOGMIDONLYAug 9, 20182 votes

He just wants everyone to be wrong and him to be right, I think that’s just his mentality, very biased approach from what I’ve read so far.

AdeJBugAug 9, 20181 votes

indeed, that's why i put those 2 quotes together. there's no talking to this person

HethaleanAug 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1T5T5Mm,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-09T18:00:04.478+0000)

I don't though. I'd love if when in champ select I see our team needs a tank I could pick a flashy one that I could master over time but that just doesn't exist because the tank class is "the noob-friendly class." I don't see why the class has to be relegated to this status, is Riot that bereft of creativity? I see no reason every class can't have about the same mix of easy and difficult champions. That's just my opinion.

I mean there are complex champions in the support class that are not Thresh or Pyke. That's why I mentioned the bias. Since you were ignoring a few of the champions in the support role that aren't easy, that combined with that Support is not a brain dead role since you have to know macro a little more than a 'push in and just roam' role like mid, or 'get my hand held' like adc.

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

Every champion in the game benefits from macro because macro has very little to do with a champion's kit.

RavenhaleAug 9, 20182 votes

I think I can safely say that I don't play Poppy like I would Leona, though that's probably the difference of being a warden versus a vanguard.

Sejuani is much more difficult than she used to be. I'm pretty sure there's a running joke that she joined Shen and Galio for coordinated pro play only.

I have this thing called ZAC in my champion pool that just auto loses games for me (and this was before his rework). Like I might seriously lose to intermediate bots a couple games trying to figure out how to use him properly.

I dunno. I feel like there is diversity in tanks with some being much easier than others.

MuxxikAug 9, 20181 votes

You might need to re-read the OP, he is making the same point as you.

RookPusherAug 9, 20184 votes

{quoted}

You might need to re-read the OP, he is making the same point as you.

It doesn't appear that he is: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/A1T5T5Mm-the-real-reason-tanks-and-supports-will-never-be-balanced?comment=00000000

MuxxikAug 9, 20181 votes

The OP: "Buffing the raw stats of these classes to get people to play them instead of addressing the core issue of their boring and uninspiring design is just as braindead as the champions themselves."

Another way to say this would be "Buffing the raw stats of these classes isn't the best idea."

Your response: "The issue with raw stat increases is that if you're a tank with no battlefield control then people just ignore you."

Another way to say this would be "Buffing the raw stats of these classes isn't the best idea."

Idk, maybe I'm missing something.

RookPusherAug 9, 20184 votes

{quoted}

The OP: "Buffing the raw stats of these classes to get people to play them instead of addressing the core issue of their boring and uninspiring design is just as braindead as the champions themselves."

Another way to say this would be "Buffing the raw stats of these classes isn't the best idea."

Your response: "The issue with raw stat increases is that if you're a tank with no battlefield control then people just ignore you."

Another way to say this would be "Buffing the raw stats of these classes isn't the best idea."

Idk, maybe I'm missing something.

Three things:

Saying tanks need more utility is no comment on their being "braindead" and I reject that they are
The raw stats increase is required because we're currently too weak period. All the utility in the world makes little difference if we can't tank.
The OP is all advocate and no policy. Saying "braindead" doesn't tell us how to fix the situation. I'm saying this:

There are three elements at play in design: Damage, Defense, Utility. All players, including tank mains, reject tank damage because it's not interesting or fun, and we like tanks for the tactics required, not because it's OP.

Where I differ from the OP is that I am saying the Defense increase is required. He isn't. And I also differ from him by saying we need utility, where he's given us nothing to work from.

MuxxikAug 9, 20181 votes

Sure, I don't necessarily feel like given the current state of the game that there aren't certain champions (particularly bruisers) that couldn't use some added durability right now. Although I will say that when the state of the game is the way it is, it is easy to misdiagnose the problem. A lot of champions are doing more damage than they really should with the current state of items and runes. If this were not the case, it would benefit tanks inherently before we even started talking about buffing tank stats.

As far as utility goes, I don't think the point of the original post was to provide a road map of exactly how each champion should be improved in terms of utility. I think the point was to say that if there were more options in the role that provided greater utility and mechanical prowess, probably at the expense of damage/defense, that it would create more diversity within the class. How exactly that happens should probably not be left up to someone making a casual comment on the league boards.

larejaredhellTPAug 9, 20181 votes

If you cant hit any thing LOL

RookPusherAug 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If you cant hit any thing LOL

....what?

MorganFreemanBotAug 9, 20187 votes

Tanks generally trade massive mechanical skill ceilings, for macro play skill ceilings.

More than any other class, Tanks need to understand how to make good macro calls. This isn't just in relation to rotating and being in the right place at the right time ,but what they do from there. Being the initiators and the peelers, tanks have to make split-second decisions on whether or not to start a fight or let the opportunity slide, as well as whether to focus on locking down enemy damage or protecting their own.

So sure, Alistar's W > Q combo isn't as mechanically impressive as a perfect Zed assassination, but knowing how to do it; whether his team can / WILL follow up vs the enemy team, takes a whole lot more decision making and game sense than just going in and assassinating a carry.

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

Macro applies to every champion, tanks/supports are no exception.

MorganFreemanBotAug 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1T5T5Mm,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-08-09T16:37:44.267+0000)

Macro applies to every champion, tanks/supports are no exception.

Yeah, and I covered that.

Every champion has macro play; tanks trade micro skill for more macro play focus.

When you're an assassin / carry, your part of team fighting is basically just being there, and then how you perform in the fight once the fight is started. Positioning yourself properly, and then doing stuff in the fight.

You don't have to start, or stop, the fight.

Tanks have all of the usual macro + significantly more. They have the make those split second judgements on whether or not to catch someone / start a team fight, which requires a strong understanding of how BOTH teams are going to react in the situation.

Now some champions have this more than others. Braum doesn't start many fights, and Lee is more than capable of initiating despite not being an actual tank. So while the lines are blurred, tanks are much more about macro play and decision making than micro. Again to draw the parallel: Zed players have to know how to assassinate people, but that's mostly just focusing on yourself and how you perform your role solo / catch people. Tanks have to think about how their team (and the enemy team) works as a cohesive unit, and make decisions from a much larger template which can have much longer ramifications.

In turn they tend to not be as micro heavy, though they still tend to be pretty micro heavy.

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

Not true, every macro example you suggested as being exclusively useful on a tank is equally useful on any other champion.

MorganFreemanBotAug 9, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1T5T5Mm,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T16:58:27.550+0000)

Not true, every macro example you suggested as being exclusively useful on a tank is equally useful on any other champion.

Not really. Most non-tanks can't engage or start fights. They can poke (which can lead to one team deciding to commit), and they can catch people who over extended / on their own, but they can't straight up hard engage.

(Again, there are a couple of exceptions to this rule such as Lee and Rakan, but League has blurred lines)

The providence of out-and-out starting fights is unique to tanks. Lux can root someone in place and potentially murder them while Zed can murderize a lone squishy in the jungle, giving the enemy team a choice; but Malphite brings the fight into the heart of the enemy team, and gets them ALL involved in the ordeal. This is why one of the most important skills a tank player can have is to not start fights, but to start slaughters.

I think the issue here is that you think tanks are braindead. They're not; they're very far from it, actually.

They're only slightly behind the skill floor of other non-tanks, as a general statement. This isn't a fair statement, because Mao is a lot easier to play than Akali, but not all tanks are equally easy like not all ADCs / assassins are equally hard.

The gap isn't big, so hence tanks aren't playing some supreme commander god-tier esque macro game, but what little bit of a discrepancy there is in micro skill is 'compensated' by increased responsibility in the decision making and macro department.

AptestAug 9, 20181 votes

I think you are missing the issue.

The issue here is, people don't like playing tanks. and some idea of why this is the case.

People really do not like playing tanks. ok, so why? what is YOUR idea on this issue?

MuxxikAug 9, 20184 votes

I kinda agree with the fact that tanks could use a bit of love when it comes to skill ceiling. It would be cool if outplaying your enemies saved your team rather than killed an enemy, that would be pretty rewarding.

One thing though that happens is that whenever a champion gets changed to be more complex and mechanically intensive, everyone starts complaining about power creep and overloaded kits, and upset that all their simpler champions are being systematically changed.

Another thing is that some players do find enjoyment in the simple nature of tanks. Some people like to win through good rotation and macro game sense, vision, objective control, etc. and don't really want the added layer of mastering a mechanically intense champion to be a barrier that halts the progress of their climb through macro play.

But I agree that if there was a good mix it would be good for the game.

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

You summed things up well. And just to make clear, I'm not against simple champions, I'm against simple classes.

GaliöAug 9, 20183 votes

So you're against marksmen and assassins as well?

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

Marksmen are only braindead if you use attack move click. I don't use it so yes, they are quite high skill ceiling. And assassins are only braindead when their damage is high enough that they don't have to hit their abilities to kill you.

GaliöAug 9, 20186 votes

LOL ok

MuxxikAug 9, 20181 votes

Marksmen are inherently difficult mechanically because unlike other classes they typically lack the utility built into their kit to survive a fight if they're engaged on directly, which means that mechanically speaking positioning mistakes are a lot more unforgivable and will cost you a lot more games than positioning mistakes as a mage, assassin, or tank, or bruiser. Also, before you say it, I'm aware that some marksmen do have the utility to duel (Vayne, Cait to some extent), but I mean the class in general.

As far as assassins are concerned, there isn't really anything too simple about them mechanically. The problem right now with assassins is that a lot of them don't even need to use their full kits to be successful, so it's easy to say "Yeah Zed can just e auto ignite and kill you". Sure, he can, but that is a problem with runes/items/stats/game balance, not a problem with the kit itself.

GaliöAug 9, 20184 votes

I'm not saying they are easy, but neither is being a tank. The 'easier' supports have all been hard nerfed. Just because they afk poke or roam doesnt make then any easier than marksmen who afk last hit. There are nuances to every class to be proficient in them. The OP looks like he just started playing league this season or made another account after being banned and thinks he understands difficulties of champion classes.

BijeesnyAug 9, 20183 votes

Start to grind ranked playing tanks/ supports. Then make statements like these.

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

I spammed rammus jg at the end of S7 when he was still broken. I just turned my brain off and won games. You have to pick the tanks that Riot overtuned because they had a low play rate.

meowwow7Aug 9, 20182 votes

from this logic someone can say assassins are braindead because they spammed zed this season and won some games

Warlord RhinarkAug 9, 20182 votes

Fun is subjective.

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20181 votes

Check out the last line of the OP.

Warlord RhinarkAug 9, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1T5T5Mm,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-08-09T16:49:05.160+0000)

Check out the last line of the OP.

"Braindead" is subjective.

murderessAug 9, 20181 votes

I don't understand the downvotes, people constantly complain about the lack of agency they have when they play tanks but then they don't support the likes of Maokai getting a more complex kit?

i cant move wtfAug 9, 20182 votes

IMO it's all ego based. They can't take themselves out of the equation. Some people have built their whole identity out of being a tank player so if anyone points out something negative about the class then they take it as a personal affront rather than what it is, just a critique of the game.