Elise Support - Why I think it'll work...

Adormas·Aug 6, 2018·3 votes·3,873 views

I got her on ARAM, and realized how strong her base skills are.

She has % health damage on her Qs, decent range in Human form. Her spiderling (W) has a 0.95 AP ratio, is aoe, costs 60 mana at lvl 1 for 60 base damage. Compare this to Fiddles crows - 70 mana, 60 base damage, 0.45 scaling. Of course we assume it hits only once. But the upside is she wont auto push while harassing like fiddles does. Her stun (E) is a VERY fast traveling projectile, at 1075 range, with a 1.6s (lvl 1) stun duration. Her rappel (E) can help scout bushes for ambushes, and assist in getting her out of tough spots.

At around 18-25 minutes, she can easily gain 250-ish ap (with , and , with her max rank W doing 480 base damage + liandrys burn + scorch + aery...which can be a lot!

Thoughts?

PS: I'm too inexperienced to try her out. If an experienced Elise can try her bot lane, that'd be great!

19 Comments

Pale MaskAug 6, 20183 votes

Elise has worked in the support role since her release (in spite of the nerfs). She's very versatile and has strong base values.

If you want to play her as a support, manage your mana and don't spam Q; its damage is pitiful at early levels, it has a high mana cost and it draws minion aggro. Try to look for opportunities to land (at least in human form) a combo. Elise is good at punishing mistakes.

I don't recommend picking her over basically anything unless you're playing with premades who don't mind you not going jungle on Elise or you know what you're doing.

Imo if you want to take her to the lane she's fine as a support, but there are better picks. I prefer to lane with her mid if you really want to do that.

HP CrookshanksAug 6, 20182 votes

Her mana costs are too high at later levels.

AdormasAug 6, 20181 votes

Fid vs Elise again:

Terrify - 65 (fxd) Cocoon - 50 (fxd) ----> Lower at all levels

Dark Wind: 70-90 Volatile Spiderling: 60-100 ---> lower early, 10 higher at max level which is negligible.

A seige session lasts 45 - 100 s which is 8 max dark winds/volatile spiderlings. Assuming no mana regen, and no pots (elise can opt for corrupting potion if its that bad - further increasing her poke), at level 11, she can still pump out 7 volatile spiderlings.

Fondling GemsAug 6, 20181 votes

The difference is that 10-15 mana per spell cast is worth it when your abilities are point and click cc compared to abilities that are blocked by minions. Fid E also has a Silence on top of that, and against 2 targets alone has very high damage.

Elise support definitely works, but it doesn't work unconditionally and compared to most supports she has very high mana costs. You are comparing her to the most mana intensive of supports, and she is only a little bit cheaper, which still isn't great mana-wise. Fidlesticks also has a fair bit high mana regen too, which with all the support mana regen multipliers ends up making a big difference.

Due to her mana constraints she is best played with an aggressive ADC like Draven, so they can keep getting kills, backing, and killing again. One of her greatest strengths is her bush dominance with W, but for that to work she has to be ahead, or at least going even.

BLACK REALM GODAug 6, 20181 votes

you're looking at early game qualities.

look at her mana regen, her cooldowns, and her scaling as far as her E is concerned.

also consider her defense and hp

AdormasAug 6, 20181 votes

Oooo fair points...lemme look these up.

AdormasAug 6, 20181 votes

Okay, for the sake of comparison, I'm going to use Fiddles, cause both have similar playstyles - harass into trying to set up kills.

Base Mana, mana regen - MP5 (lvl 1 - 18)

Fid: 500-976, 8-21.6 Elise: 324-1174, 6-19.6

CD for CC skill and main harassing tool (lvl1 - lvl 5)

Fid: Terrify - 15s - 11s; Dark wind - 10s (fxd) Elise: Cocoon - 12s - 10s; Volatile Spiderling - 12s (fxd)

Defense (health, health regen, AA range, movespeed)

Fid: 524-1884, 5.5-15.7, 480, 335 Elise: 534 - 2115, 5.5-15.7, 550, 330

So the biggest advantage Fid has over Elise is his base mana, and mana regen. But I've played fiddles a fair bit in the support role and even with constant harass I never dip below 60% mana.

Elise has an advantage where in her harass is more targetted (once you get a handle on it), and her stun range is MASSIVE. And its not that difficult to land it. If ppl can land morg Q's, cocoons are definitely easier. Also her AA range is quite high compared to his, but fiddles does have that amazing passive so that advantage cancels out imo.

What else can we look at?

BLACK REALM GODAug 6, 20181 votes

try to remember that fiddles has a drain that he can use to heal. and this isnt a halfway heal or an over time heal. this his is percent based and almost instant.

elise's stats. possibly outdated

Magic resist 30 – 38.5 Armor 27 – 84 mana 324 – 1174 mana regen 6 – 19.6 health 534 – 2115 health regen 5.5 – 15.7

fiddlesticks. same 30 – 38.5 30 – 89.5 500 – 976 8 – 21.6 524.4 – 1884.4 5.5 – 15.7

so more armor, more mana starting, higher mana regen, slightly lower health, and similar health regen.

fiddlesticks primary poke has a cooldown of 10 seconds and it can activate multihit keystones/runes on its own. the cost is 70-90 increasing in increments of 5.

elise would be W or E in human form.

W has a cooldown of 12 seconds a cost of 60-100 mana increasing by 10 per level and can miss.

elise's E has a cooldown of 12-10 seconds decreasing in increments of .5 per level and increasing in duration by .1 seconds from 1.6-2 seconds stun. just for reference morgana has a 2 second stun level 1 that costs 50 mana (same as elise's E) and has an 11 second cooldown. it deals damage also where as elise's E does no damage.

just some thoughts.

AdormasAug 6, 20181 votes

The armor is a definite plus, I'll give you that.

The poke is comparable, and I still think elise has a more dependable poke if you get used to it. Its like velkoz's poke only it seeks champs. Mana costs differences are negligible. Also, Elise W can also proc the same multihit keystones/runes fiddles can.

You say that her W can miss, well so can fiddles darkwind. I've missed a bunch and I've certainly made enemy fiddles miss a whole lot of em.

Comparing morg bind to elise stun; Sure morg has 0.4 seconds more duration at lvl 1, but which do you think is easier to land? Morg Q or Elise E? CD differ by 1 s at lvl 1. Range - morg has 100 range more. Projectile speed? Elise has 400 units more. four-freaking-hundred.

Elise's q has 625 range (25 short from caitlyns AA range) and does %health damage. I imagine she could be good pick against braum. Also rappels away when braum q's (assuming you they have minions).

BLACK REALM GODAug 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The armor is a definite plus, I'll give you that.

The poke is comparable, and I still think elise has a more dependable poke if you get used to it. Its like velkoz's poke only it seeks champs. Mana costs differences are negligible. Also, Elise W can also proc the same multihit keystones/runes fiddles can.

You say that her W can miss, well so can fiddles darkwind. I've missed a bunch and I've certainly made enemy fiddles miss a whole lot of em.

Comparing morg bind to elise stun; Sure morg has 0.4 seconds more duration at lvl 1, but which do you think is easier to land? Morg Q or Elise E? CD differ by 1 s at lvl 1. Range - morg has 100 range more. Projectile speed? Elise has 400 units more. four-freaking-hundred.

Elise's q has 625 range (25 short from caitlyns AA range) and does %health damage. I imagine she could be good pick against braum. Also rappels away when braum q's (assuming you they have minions).

im not saying you cant do it, but you asked why people dont. the biggest one is mana constraints and the reliance on using your spider form for resistances. elise's mana is super low and her costs arent cheaper. and regen for mana is %based so it cant be raised too high. on top of that fiddlesticks E actually cant be missed if targeted onto an opposing champion. elise's W may completely whiff - especially if the opponent retreats.

theChibiTinaAug 6, 20181 votes

As a support main, I'm curious about this too now. Elise's jungle isn't great because her kit is to good so she's not allowed to be good. Maybe she could work as a support though. I'll have to ask my friend who's a jungle main and an ex-support main to go bot with me and test this out. If I can convince him to do it, I'll come back and let you know how it goes. I'm not the best ADC, but I'll do it for the cause. Lol.

Agent CorgiAug 6, 20181 votes

I'm willing to give this a try. I'll come back after a game or two & give you my verdict.

*Edit: Mana costs on her W aren't that bad, neither is the poke. However you ARE heavily dependent on landing your E & you will draw the minions attention if you poke with Q. Unless you're REALLY good at landing skillshots & have solid communication (If you jump on someone in Spider form & your team decides to back out, you're gonna get squashed), I probably wouldn't recommend playing her in the Support-Role in Ranked. In normals, this isn't a bad thing to try out if you want to play something different. I had fun with it from Early to Mid game & baiting the shit out of people with my Rappel or Hourglass was so much fun.

Has decent poke with [W: Volitile Spiderlings]
[E: Cocoon] has massive range & can be useful in snagging someone out of position
[E: Rappel] as you said can help you out in getting out of binds or Chasing down low HP Enemies
She needs a specific team composition & needs Team Coordination to be effective.
Baiting people with your [E: Rappel] Can be fun

Overall, I give her a modest 5/10 in the Support Role.

AdormasAug 6, 20181 votes

Best of luck! Try to lane with a jhin if you can..chain cc will be a cake.

AdormasAug 6, 20181 votes

Oh thats not bad! With practice could you get that up to like a 7/10 ?

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Okay now onto Jarvan support ...[sg-poppy]

Fondling GemsAug 6, 20181 votes

J4 support is actually really fun, and surprisingly diverse.

AD J4 support works as the classic kill lane, but there is a slightly meme-y build that I would suggest only doing in normals. It's called "Classic Support J4"

Basically you take Aery, if you don't take this rune your build doesn't work. Aery shields on not just heals/shields, but also buffs. This means that you max E, keep it down 24/7 for the AS to both you and your ADC, and keep Aery constantly flying to them. You can leave this as is and go into the AD J4 kill lane, or you can take it a step further and buy an Ardent Censor. Both you and your ADC get this AS buff too, so you end up providing one of the best AS buffs in the game constantly for very little mana. AP makes your E hurt more too so the flag drops function as decent poke. I tend to transition into a tanky build after that, either picking up some AD or more healing/shielding items depending on how the game is going.

I don't play it a ton but it is definitely one of the most amusing support builds in the game, and don't think you wont compete with Janna's for total shielding.

Zone of EndlessAug 6, 20181 votes

You have to remember W only chases target in range and they can be blocked by minion pretty easily. You can use it to scout brushes but as a harassment tool it's very weak.

Her E can be blocked by minion. It's hard to get an angle when you're in lane. You can't exactly walk up for an angle for an E either since you have nothing to defend against harass. Morg at least has her E to block CC and let her walk up to people. Her W is a good harassment tool as well. Thresh just has a threatening presence and if you let a thresh walk up to you he'll just E into an easy Q.

Play Maokai support instead. He's far more better than Elise.

AdormasAug 6, 20181 votes

Fair point about W... but remember its aoe, and I'm certain with enough practice you can get the VS on champs. Its range is 950!

To be fair, most binds/ stuns can be blocked by minions, but it travels so fast! If the enemy is forced to stand behind their minions ALL laning phase, haven't you kind of won the lane due to area denial. You're forgetting rappel to escape harass, not to mention her spiderlings block most skill shots...the only support that should have an advantage here is bard. Thresh's flay has 400 range, if he's that close to you you cocoon his giant ass, Q and E after. switch to spider and rappel away.

Zone of EndlessAug 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Fair point about W... but remember its aoe, and I'm certain with enough practice you can get the VS on champs. Its range is 950!

To be fair, most binds/ stuns can be blocked by minions, but it travels so fast! If the enemy is forced to stand behind their minions ALL laning phase, haven't you kind of won the lane due to area denial. You're forgetting rappel to escape harass, not to mention her spiderlings block most skill shots...the only support that should have an advantage here is bard. Thresh's flay has 400 range, if he's that close to you you cocoon his giant ass, Q and E after. switch to spider and rappel away.

It's AoE but it's not that big of an AoE. You can run it into your minion pretty easily. I've done it and see it being done quite a lot in aram.

Again, it doesn't matter how fast the projectile of E travel. You need a good angle in the bot lane to land it and for Elise it's not as easy and safe. Even if you land it you have to commit to it if you want to do big damage

It's very hard to use rappel as an escape tool in the bot lane. You can't just drop anywhere you want. You can only drop on enemy champ/minion and jungle camp. It also has a very long cooldown and if you use it to escape harass then your ADC will just be an easy target while you're staying up there.

ElishevaAug 12, 20181 votes

It /can/ work for the same reason pyke support is a thing. Lots of damage. Other than that she isn't very good because she herself needs to get ahead in order to stay somewhat relevant.