Adding an aiming animation to ranged auto attacks would do a lot for champion diversity/viability

i cant move wtf··2 votes·696 views

##Foreword I'll be addressing many concerns in this and it's likely yours will be included, so please read the full post before responding!


#WHY? Why introduce an aiming animation to ranged autos?

Range is an inherent advantage against any melee champion. A player that knows how to properly kite will always dominate melees until every melee in the game is given insane mobility/CC spells to compensate (aka mobility/CC creep). This hurts champion kit diversity and viability, especially tanks/juggernauts where high amounts of mobility in their kits don't make sense thematically or gameplay-wise. It also hurts lane diversity, making it rare and difficult to make a melee viable as an ADC and not be completely broken.

Aiming for ranged champions also just makes intuitive sense. If you try to hit something from far away you have to aim first. You don't have to aim if something is directly in front of you. An aiming mechanism would provide an inherent point of balance between the eternal melee vs ranged matchup.


#WHAT? What is an "aiming animation" and how is it different from a skillshot?

A skillshot is just a projectile that you give a direction to that has no guarantee of hitting a target once it is executed. An aimed auto attack is when an aiming animation occurs before an attack animation and is guaranteed to hit the target if the aiming and attack animations aren't interrupted.


#HOW? How might a mechanic like this be implemented?

Not much actually has to be changed. A target could simply be right-clicked once and a scope appear under the selected target (seen only by the marksman). An advancing arrow immediately moves outward from the marksman's character model toward the scoped target (symbolizing the process of aiming). When the arrow reaches the target, the attack animation would begin immediately. Marksman should be able to move while aiming so it's not a disruptive animation like the attack animation which requires them to be stopped with no other commands issued. This means they can still kite, just that the time between autos is increased based on their distance from the target. Every time they switch to a new target or complete an auto attack, a new aim must be taken.


#Additional Thoughts/Concerns

How does this weaken marksmen other than slowing down their attacks from a distance?

A subtle "nerf" is introduced to marksmen attacking from further away. Bushes, stealth and invisibility (tools mostly used by assassins) are now much more powerful against marksmen attacking from afar since enemies have a larger window to go out of sight due to the increased aiming animation, thereby cancelling the auto.

If aiming time increases with distance then wouldn't marksmen be stronger up close and weaker further away?

No, because their base stats will be worse than a melee's. This means that, all things being equal, up close a melee has better stats and should win even though a marksman is doing their highest auto attack dps. However, if there's little threat of them dying then it might be a very good decision to get within melee range and maximize their dps.

If marksmen are worse up close and have their lowest auto dps from max range, what are they good for?

This is where a philosophical difference in design comes in. It's not that marksmen are strong from afar, it's that they get to attack from afar. Why is this point important? Because it opens up so many more kits to be viable. By creating an inherent weakness in ranged autos (an aiming tax), now melee kits can be viable that aren't simply CC bots or have some insane mobility skill taking up a slot that could be used for something else entirely. Melee ADC/APCs could become viable. The entire kit of a marksman would have to be taken into account to know what their weaknesses/strengths are. A marksman no longer needs to be defined by the fact that they attack from a distance, instead it's just another aspect of their kit.

26 Comments

i cant move wtf1 votes

Can I get some actual feedback on this? I think it's an elegant solution for more diversity and I'd like to hear why people would be opposed to it.

k wìx1 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8n6TKAAu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-09-22T23:04:00.669+0000)

Can I get some actual feedback on this? I think it's an elegant solution for more diversity and I'd like to hear why people would be opposed to it.

This is coming from a Platinum level support main that has played league for a LONG time. I consider myself relatively skilled at the game. You took some time with this, and while i don't have long, I'll put some effort into why I think is a bad idea both for marksman and league in general.

1.) The mechanic your suggesting is just too complicated for league. It wouldn't translate into the game well at all. It would look really, really confusing if 5 ranged champions all tried to 'aim' at a single target. You give absolutely no explanation about how vision might change/interact with aiming animations.

2.) It would add a huge layer of confusion to group teamfights, with arrows and aiming reticles going crazy. I have enough trouble telling what happens in a teamfight already. Your solution isn't streamlined enough to convey the information it needs, Why not simply increase the time it takes for every ranged ADC to fire off an auto attack? This is much, much simpler, yet has virtually the same effect. I mean, you could even say that 'auto attack animations take longer if the enemy is farther away' .. Still a more elegant solution.

3.) You would have to COMPLETELY rebalance every single ADC in the game. It's just too much work and not really feasibly by any metric. Do you know how hard it is to even balance a single champion? Nevermind every other ranged auto attacker that ISNT an ADC - they would all have to be changed. If you did not do that, it'd be the end of league as you know it. THe game would balance flop so hard that players would quit on a massive scale.

4.) You talk about how Marksmen would benefit because they could have different or better kits, but I think they are already super well defined - My approach plan can change drastically based on the ADC I'm going up against - it really isn't as simple as 'its an adc'. If you think so, then I just think you haven't experienced enough of the game.

5.) You want to open up kit diversity with this change, but I think you'd kill off a fair number of playstyles and cement a new meta, with ADCs being somewhere near the bottom - We do need to take a look at ADCs power level, especially towards the late game, but I don't think your mechanics would add any major benefit.

i cant move wtf1 votes

First off, great response. You organized your thoughts in a very clear and easy to understand way and you seemed to actually read the post. I've summarized each of your points and address them by their number below.

(1. "It would be too complicated and visually cluttered."

  • I'm not sure if it wasn't explicit in my post, but the aiming animations would only be visible to the marksman, not to anyone else. Not only would it be extremely cluttered as you point out, but it would also be a huge nerf to marksmen since their targeting would be greatly telegraphed.

(2. The first part of this I think is answered by the previous point. For the second part, "Why not simply increase attack animations for marksmen?"

  • While I'm all for simplicity as much as possible (I'm a programmer by trade), I think there's one major benefit to having a separate aiming animation. And it's this: you can give it different qualities than the attack animation. What qualities? You can make it so movement and skillshots are possible during the aiming animation, while still requiring that no movement or inputs are present during the actual attack animation. This makes effective kiting (like the kind every good marksman needs to master to be good at the role) still possible on this "slower" attack speed. If you only increased the duration of the attack animation then kiting becomes very clunky and largely ineffective.

(3. "All marksmen would have to be rebalanced because of this."

  • I totally agree. There's no way the stats of all the marksmen in the game could remain the same if this was implemented. If this actually were to be implemented (and let me be real, I have no delusions that this will ever happen for League, it's simply a fun thing to think about for me) then I couldn't see it happening in anything but a preseason, and definitely not this one with all the crazy changes to runes happening.

(4. "Marksmen are already diverse and wouldn't benefit much, if at all from this."

  • I do think marksmen would benefit from this but I think it's more that the game as a whole would benefit. As League is right now, there's no inherent tradeoff for being a ranged champion. A melee champion with the same kit as any ranged champion will just be worse, because kiting. The repercussions of this is that every melee's kit has to pay the "melee tax" and have a dedicated ability with ridiculous mobility or CC so that they're even playable. Not only that but they have to have inflated tank stats as well. This isn't "just how it has to be", it's a direct result of there being no natural advantage to being melee. It's just a worse attribute, which will always have to be compensated for with the limited real estate of their 4 abilities.

(5. "This will bring about a new meta, kill off many existing playstles, and make ADCs perhaps the worst role."

  • You're absolutely right that this would bring a new meta but I think that misses the point. The new runes will bring a new meta and they're not changing anything about any of the champions. Big changes change the meta, and this would be a big change. But I see it as a change that would bring more diversity of kits (like melee champions that's have little to no CC/mobility and marksman that fit better in roles other than ADC), and an overall more dynamic and varied amount of viable matchups and team comps. Right now, League to me feels very compressed. The window for unique champions to exist is very tight. All melees are forced into having blown out CC/mobility and all ranged champs are forced to be very squishy with limited mobility. There isn't much middle ground. I'm not knocking the game, I think League is one of the best games of all time, maybe even the best, but I do feel like the balance between ranged vs melee has never fully been given an answer and a change like this would do a lot of good in the long term, even if we don't agree on what exactly would be the best way to implement it.
k wìx1 votes

Fair points all around. I guess ultimately, I'd rather see the game designers take a long and hard look at addressing mobility, rather than changing the core mechanics of the auto attack.

i cant move wtf1 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8n6TKAAu,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-24T18:48:26.473+0000)

Fair points all around. I guess ultimately, I'd rather see the game designers take a long and hard look at addressing mobility, rather than changing the core mechanics of the auto attack.

I mean I can't argue with that because personal preference is personal preference. But in the current state of League, how do you think a melee can be viable in any way other than having at least one spell with extreme mobility or CC?

MooooooooreDakka1 votes

Looks like a bunch of people are down voting without saying anything. My problem with this, as well as I would guess theirs, is that auto attacks are supposed to be simple and feel clean to use while this seems like it would feel kind of clunky, especially for last hitting. Either the aiming time would be long enough that it becomes really awkward to use or it would short enough to be basically a more complicated and screen cluttering form of an attack delay nerf for all ranged champions.

i cant move wtf1 votes

{quoted}

is that auto attacks are supposed to be simple and feel clean to use while this seems like it would feel kind of clunky, especially for last hitting.

The clunkiness would entirely depend on how it's implemented. If it's done very simply like a scope put under the selected target and an advancing line that triggers the attack animation when it reaches the target, then there would be both little screen clutter and no clunkiness. Also I'm arguing that you can move during the aiming animation so it wouldn't feel like a caitlyn ult every time you want to auto something.

But let's assume clunkiness is solved and auto attacks still feel really simple and fluid on a ranged champion (I think you'd agree that it's at least theoretically possible). Do you have any disagreements with the over-arching argument I'm trying to make that this would significantly increase champion, lane, and kit diversity?

MooooooooreDakka2 votes

First, it would be a massive pain for last hitting minions. Second, if I understand correctly, what this accomplishes is nerfing marksman changing targets and how fast the first shot comes out rather than things that are actual problems like burst per second, durability via lifesteal and enchanters, and kiting.

i cant move wtf1 votes

{quoted}

First, it would be a massive pain for last hitting minions.

Why do you think that?

Second, if I understand correctly, what this accomplishes is nerfing marksman changing targets and how fast the first shot comes out

No, it's doesn't nerf how fast the first shot comes out. All it does is that the aiming animation's duration is proportional to the distance the target is from the marksman (capped by the max range of the marksman). Put more simply, the further you are away the longer the aiming animation, the closer you are the shorter the aiming animation.

rather than things that are actual problems like burst per second, durability via lifesteal and enchanters, and kiting.

How does it not directly address all of these? Look how it affects kiting (something every good marksman will do), If a marksman is kiting then their dps is diminished based on how far they are away.

MooooooooreDakka2 votes

It would affect last hitting because you need to aim at the minion before you can start your attack animation which increases how far in advance you need to attack. Also, I'm unsure if you aim once before you can start attacking a new target or if you need to aim for each attack. If you can tell me that I can discuss this further.

i cant move wtf1 votes

{quoted}

It would affect last hitting because you need to aim at the minion before you can start your attack animation which increases how far in advance you need to attack.

It would depend how far you are away from the minion. If you're within melee range then it wouldn't have an aiming animation and would just do the attack animation.

Also, I'm unsure if you aim once before you can start attacking a new target or if you need to aim for each attack. If you can tell me that I can discuss this further.

You would need to aim for each attack, regardless if the target is new or not.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8n6TKAAu,comment-id=000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-23T01:03:02.184+0000)

It would depend how far you are away from the minion. If you're within melee range then it would be instant.

You would need to aim for each attack, regardless if the target is new or not.

so what you are telling me with this is that the animation is not constant, It varies with range (none at melee but long at bigger ranges) and that you have to do this for every single attack regardless of whether you are attacking the same thing or not... this would make auto attacking as ANY ranged champion incredibly awkward and frustrating. Not it doesn't matter the "depends on how it's implemented", no matter how you implement this it'll be clunky, awkward and frustrating since you have to deal with constantly changing variables for something you do as literally every stage of the game. It'll also affect certain champions more than others due range differences between champions. So now you have every single ranged champion with really clunky and awkward CSing, really clunky kiting and overall frustrating gameplay.

i cant move wtf1 votes

{quoted}

clunky and awkward CSing, really clunky kiting and overall frustrating gameplay.

You can move while aiming so it factors out to be the same skill as csing is now. You would just time how long it's taking the range indicator to reach the minion you're last hitting and use your movement as wiggle room.

Kiting would be the same as it is now. You right click the enemy and move away, then the attack animation automatically triggers when they come into range and you issue another right click and move away again. It's actually the same exact commands and timing just offset by the first aiming animation.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

Last hitting would be horrible, since your suggestion is to increase the time until the AA is executed at max range, which is most likely the range a marksman will stay from a minion while last hitting since you don't really want to stand in the minion wave being vulnerable.

Increasing the AA delay makes last hitting alot harder.

i cant move wtf1 votes

{quoted}

Last hitting would be horrible Increasing the AA delay makes last hitting alot harder.

But melees have to stand in the minion wave to last hit and make themselves vulnerable, and they don't get to have a ranged poke with no mana cost. Why should a marksman complain about more difficult last hitting from a distance when they have the option to cs more easily up close?

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

You mentioned it yourself: Base stats. Melee champions have to stay in the minion wave while csing, but they are tankier naturally as well as by their build.

And just saying: some melee champions actually have ranged poke without mana costs. Aatrox Akali DrMundo Katarina Kled LeeSin Mordekaiser RekSai Rengar Shyvana Rumble Yasuo Zac Zed

i cant move wtf1 votes

{quoted}

You mentioned it yourself: Base stats.

Yes, they have an advantage there, but consider if a marksman gets a health lead through poke. Then they could sit near the wave, csing easily, and zone them with their better range. Or csing well from afar could just be another valuable skill to master if you like playing a lot of ranged champs.

Melee champions have to stay in the minion wave while csing, but they are tankier naturally as well as by their build.

But why does every melee champion have to be tankier? It's because there's no other way they can survive against a ranged champion in this game other than to be able to soak up 100 auto attacks while they cs since the inherent advantage of range has no inherent weaknesses.

And just saying: some melee champions actually have ranged poke without mana costs.

Right, and that's a perfectly fine way to design a champion's kit. What's your point? I'm not against melee champions having some ranged abilities. I'd be fine if there were melee champions with ALL ranged abilities. But in the current state of this game there's actually no way you can have a melee champion without some kind of ridiculous mobility or CC spells to make them somewhat viable. It's just not possible because kiting exists and there's no basic tradeoff to it.

i cant move wtf1 votes

How does a board that I'm guessing is mostly populated by ~30 year olds have almost the same reaction to anything offbeat or slightly different as a child that's given vegetables? Upvote your crit ramp-up mechanic though and how your normals game had a plat player in it and that the star guardian mode was too hard.

pizzaman1321 votes

Keep the attacks point and click but make them fly like actual skill shots so they can be sidestepped/dodged some projectile speed buffs may be necessary tho

i cant move wtf1 votes

{quoted}

Keep the attacks point and click but make them fly like actual skill shots so they can be sidestepped/dodged some projectile speed buffs may be necessary tho

How would you hit targets that are standing behind things then? How would last hit minions in the back of the wave?

i cant move wtf1 votes

This is such a damn good solution and it went right over everyone's head.

[slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

i cant move wtf1 votes

Crit should be a ramp-up mechanic then I won't get styled on by an ADC that's better at the game than me xd

k wìx1 votes

First and foremost, I think its important to define 'viable' .. because I think the majority of the roster is in a pretty playable state, but I do concede that mobility and CC are becoming really important. However...

The problem isn't just with melee styles of champions - **Mobility and CC are becoming required tools of every single role in the game. **

The primary reason is that there isn't much that counters either of them. The primary stat to combat CC is lukewarm at best, and garbage at worst. There are very few items that augment or change mobility, so again - You either have it or you suffer.

As to answer your question directly, there are a lot of ways to do it - but not many that are healthy for the game. The way i see it.. you have to:

_A. _ Give raw stats to compensate, which could be considered poor design, its just really, really hard to do right. Look at Riven or Tryn for solid examples. Its always a feast or famine style design.

B. Another potential option with 'raw stats' is to look at Scaling potential, push for melee style champions to be powerful early/mid game (the opposite of hypercarry design.) This could give them a place. This kinda exists already to a certain extent, but this can feel oppressive and lead to unfun gameplay (always keep the ADC from playing the game they want)

C. Summoner Spell redesign. I think we need summoner spells tuned to be more friendly to melee champions. The opposite also works - removing flash would be a solid buff to melee champions, I think. This is a bit of a cop-out, as it changes the game fundamentally.

D. Increase the power of Tenacity and make it affect knock-ups. A few well designed items could really make a world of difference here.

i cant move wtf1 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8n6TKAAu,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-09-25T01:28:31.791+0000)

First and foremost, I think its important to define 'viable' .. because I think the majority of the roster is in a pretty playable state, but I do concede that mobility and CC are becoming really important.

Yeah, I agree most of the roster is playable. I don't personally see anything completely broken or unchecked.

But if the only reason I was proposing this change was to make more of the roster viable, I agree, I would be trying to fix something that isn't really broken. The way League is setup now, it is more or less balanced (though I suspect if a bunch of AIs were trained to play the game they might discover many broken champions or playstyles that the playerbase is mostly unaware of.)

So my goal with this isn't to make the game more balanced. Riot employs a full team with annual salaries and benefits to crunch numbers, look at statistics and turn a bunch of little dials to keep things in order every 2 weeks. And they can keep doing this indefinitely if they want to so long as they have the resources. Instead, my focus is on kit and playstyle diversity. Every kit in this game has a hard limit of 4 abilities, 1 passive and base stats. That's really not a lot of room to express 100+ different champions, about half melee and half ranged.

I think we can agree that the attribute "ranged" is a flat benefit, all other things being equal. What's the inherent disadvantage? There is none. Okay, so let's investigate how this affects what a melee's kit has to be.

A melee has to have one or more of these 3 qualities:

  1. Tankier - so they can soak up enough poke to be able to cs.
  2. More Mobile - so they can close the gap on a ranged champion.
  3. Have Strong CC - so they can lock down ranged champions to close the gap.

I look at these requirements as a "tax" that a melee's kit has to pay, just to be playable. This is why I say it hurts diversity. If range had an inherent disadvantage or melee an inherent advantage comparable to range, then those 3 qualities mentioned above don't have to exist in every melee's kit anymore. And that would mean more abilities left open that can be used to make the champion even more unique and interesting.

And ranged champion diversity is affected by this too. Ranged champions, in general, can't be tanky, hyper-mobile or have strong CC. The number dialing of base stats to ensure these kinds of kits are balanced would be madness. And so the long-term effects of range having no inherent disadvantage have caused this CC/mobility creep we're seeing more of, as well as polarizing most ranged champions to be ADCs and most melees to be tanks.

Having a melee ADC is just such a knife's edge between viable and overpowered or completely underwhelming, because it's all done through base stats for the most part, or cooldowns of tankiness/CC abilities. How do you get those numbers right for 100+ champions? I don't see it as a practical pursuit.

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