Varus mid is taking over lcs

Leu07·Jul 3, 2015·3 votes·25,853 views

I believe Varus mid is getting unbalanced, he can poke better than xerath and ziggs (once he gets blue it is insane) while also being able to take structures down easily ('cause he is ad of course). He's not that promped to be an easy gank when he takes and also has his E to slow and his ult to lockdown any threat. I think he is outclassing by far the regular poke mid mages, Varus shouldn't be playing in the midlane! Remember when riot nerfed when she was taking over top? and also and ? I think Varus is no exception and should be rebalanced. Really, I find Varus mid unfun, specially on lcs, boring, really, and when you see him take down a 's 35% health with one Q that also goes through minions, you know there is something wrong, can't do that.

61 Comments

RiotMeddlerJul 3, 201514 votes

We're keeping an eye on Varus mid, there's certainly the possibility his Q might get a bit overbearing once he's got enough CDR/Mana/AD. He is immobile though, and lacks a strong disengage on a basic cooldown. That vulnerability means he avoids some of the issues we've seen with Jayce, Nid, Ziggs etc in the past.

In terms what position champions play in anywhere they're healthy's fine by us. In Varus' particular case we were actually aiming for mid lane play originally as a primary position for him, even going so far as to include that in the champion spotlight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twiHstUjNkY

That didn't end up working out at the time, didn't have the tuning on him right, nor some of the itemization he currently benefits from, but must admit it's been nice to see it getting play finally.

CuixJul 3, 20151 votes

I think the main point with which I can agree, in terms of Varus mid being problematic, is that other poke-based champions are currently seen as inferior options to Varus/Kog.

Why is Xerath Xerath not able to compete with them, despite being more specific/niche in his design towards being the siege/poke/artillery champion?

Where did Ziggs Ziggs go, and are we okay with the fact that nobody wants him back?

Is anyone looking at AP Ez Ezreal , and why not?

What exactly are Lux Lux and Vel'Koz Velkoz supposed to do, anyway?

FeuerachatJul 3, 20152 votes

There isn't much of a point discussing APs right at the moment. The new AP itemization is about to hit live, we will see how the new meta looks after that. Ap Ez is seeing a nerf in comparision to other ap champions btw since he can't proc ludens anymore on q.

VarphJul 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think the main point with which I can agree, in terms of Varus mid being problematic, is that other poke-based champions are currently seen as inferior options to Varus/Kog.

Why is Xerath not able to compete with them, despite being more specific/niche in his design towards being the siege/poke/artillery champion?

Where did Ziggs go, and are we okay with the fact that nobody wants him back?

Is anyone looking at AP Ez , and why not?

What exactly are Lux and Vel'Koz supposed to do, anyway?

Lux and Vel'Koz have wombocombo's unlike the more poke based Ziggs and Xerath.

Leu07Jul 3, 20151 votes

Thank you for taking the time to answer, I love watching lcs and pro plays, I actually haven't encountered a Varus mid in my games. I was just getting a bit worried about Varus mid skyrocketing in picks AND win rates in lcs, I must admit though, that most of the time he's been picked as a counterpick to inmobile and shorter range champs like Cassiopeia and Viktor . I believe the change made to the cooldown being iniciated inmediately when he casts Q is what is making him a bit too much, he can charge that Q, throw it from the fog of war, rip a squishy by half and 2/3 seconds later he can repeat that (note that his Q can also go through multiple targets unlike Nidalee and Jayce ). I don't consider him OP actually, like many have said, he is slow af and can get jumped on/chain ccd easily, I suppose because of the tank meta, he just gets a huge beefy frontline that can peel for him so he can stay back and snipe everyone down. It would be wiser to wait if the pros or other people figure out another way to counter Varus, but yeah, also keep an eye on him. I really like Varus btw, he was the first adc I bought.

VarphJul 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We're keeping an eye on Varus mid, there's certainly the possibility his Q might get a bit overbearing once he's got enough CDR/Mana/AD. He is immobile though, and lacks a strong disengage on a basic cooldown. That vulnerability means he avoids some of the issues we've seen with Jayce, Nid, Ziggs etc in the past.

In terms what position champions play in anywhere they're healthy's fine by us. In Varus' particular case we were actually aiming for mid lane play originally as a primary position for him, even going so far as to include that in the champion spotlight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twiHstUjNkY

That didn't end up working out at the time, didn't have the tuning on him right, nor some of the itemization he currently benefits from, but must admit it's been nice to see it getting play finally.

I think the hitbox is just ridiculous on it. That and its mana cost is irrelevant since its the only spell he casts.

McshuggetsJul 3, 20152 votes

Since Riot says they like to keep champions' strengths the same and emphasize their weaknesses, I think the best way to nerf Varus (If that is the direction you're taking with him) is a base MS reduction. His weakness has always been a lack of mobility, and his damage/range has always been his strength, which I don't think should be changed.

atomicwitJul 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We're keeping an eye on Varus mid, there's certainly the possibility his Q might get a bit overbearing once he's got enough CDR/Mana/AD. He is immobile though, and lacks a strong disengage on a basic cooldown. That vulnerability means he avoids some of the issues we've seen with Jayce, Nid, Ziggs etc in the past.

In terms what position champions play in anywhere they're healthy's fine by us. In Varus' particular case we were actually aiming for mid lane play originally as a primary position for him, even going so far as to include that in the champion spotlight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twiHstUjNkY

That didn't end up working out at the time, didn't have the tuning on him right, nor some of the itemization he currently benefits from, but must admit it's been nice to see it getting play finally.

Yes, please don't nerf everything that starts to get a little popular - especially for picks that have been trash tier for so long. I don't even play Varus but it's nice to see more options. I'll admit that I struggle really hard vs him when I go AP Kog (my favorite mid laner) but I don't feel it's unfair or anything. I'd say the same for AP Ez. since he lacks CC, has poor waveclear, doesn't roam well, needs Smite and has a long exploitable scaling window. He actually even falls off a bit late-game since tanks will build MR and block/reduce the damage of everything except his shorter-ranged W). People just see his ult. or Q chunk a squishy (who for some reason was in front of minions and the team's tanks) then cry about it while ignoring everything else.

Pada1Jul 4, 20151 votes

i dont think the problem is whether he is played mid or not, its the fact that his poke is overbearing and its super UNFUN to both specatate or to play against(same goes for other poke champions like ap kog, etc.). rebalance his power to his passive and W, NERF his Q especially range and cooldown.

IcyPepperJul 3, 201511 votes

Varus shouldn't be playing in the midlane!

Why not?

Why must a champion be balanced to be played in only one lane?

Leu07Jul 3, 20151 votes

I like to keep the indentity of champs, that also means to keep them as they were supposed to be, Varus is an adc, go botlane. If he was built AP then ok, go midlane. That's just my opinion though, that's how I like it (OCD). But that's not really the problem, I metioned why.

YumaS2AstralJul 3, 20155 votes

Why should a champion be balanced around only one lane? Unless this champion is unbalanced here, I see no reason to gut him to make him unplayable here.

Also, there is a difference between ADC Varus and an AD Caster Varus.

Only Play DariusJul 3, 20151 votes

ADC = AD Caster

wtf are you trying to say?

YumaS2AstralJul 3, 20157 votes

ADC = AD Carry

which is different from an AD caster.

Varus can be built as an ADC (with Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer/Statikk Shiv, and items that are common to ADCs) OR as an AD Caster (with Muramana, Last Whisper, Black Cleaver, items that are common to casters that don't make use of attack speed)

Both builds are different, and have a different playstyle, despite being similar and being both AD. ADC Varus has better sustained damage, better 1x1 potential, and is slighty better at taking towers (due to superior attack speed). AD Caster Varus has better poke, can spam his spells more (due to purchasing Muramana - ADC Varus CAN'T poke because he will run out of mana quickly), does more damage with his spells, and tends to have better all-around potential due to not being the main attack damage carry.

Only Play DariusJul 3, 20154 votes

Ty for explaining. I understand now.

Jeddy017Jul 3, 20151 votes

So in other words AD carry = Crit,attack speed builds & auto attacks rather than relying on abilities. AD caster = CDR,mana increasing,penetration builds & spamming abilities rather relyong on auto attacks.

IcyPepperJul 3, 20156 votes

That's not how Riot balances.

The reason why AP champions (totally ignoring AD assassins, but they have the same reasons) go mid is because they scale better with levels, while AD scales better with items and go bot lane with a support since sharing xp isn't as big as a deal.

But no.

Riot doesn't balance "AP must go mid, AD must go bot" as a balancing policy. I'm sorry if that's your preference, but Riot doesn't enforce a particular meta, they just balance the game itself. If one strategy becomes too dominant, they'll tap it, but they don't force us to take adc's bot lane or else.

DanofDemaciaJul 3, 20151 votes

Well they didnt let lulu top and they are barely letting her mid as it is

IcyPepperJul 3, 20151 votes

Granted, Lulu and Varus are two different champions.

Lulu has... different problems that forced Rito to nerf her when she got popularized in different lanes.

As much as it pains me to say, certain supports are just not allowed to be "too" strong. Many traditional supports (not utility mages, although some can be played as decent supports) are balanced to be effective without much gold. After all, a one second stun is a one second stun no matter what level or gold income you have. Problem is when people figure out that if you give a utility support the income of a laner, they have an edge over certain champions designed to solo lane.

I'm not quite sure about Lulu's history, but I can see why she would be toned down a bit. It was kind of like pre-rework Soraka, where the lane wouldn't be very interactive (poke Soraka? She heals herself. She spams Q all day. She silences you if you try to kill her. She gives herself mana to spam Q more. Neither of you are going to die. Neither of you are going to do much of anything). Lulu is a bit more interactive than that, not having to be reworked at all, but Riot might have had similar reasons.

In other words, champions with high utility (supports) sometimes get toned down so they don't out-class other champions.

Varus, on the other hand, doesn't have nearly the same amount of cc as Lulu. He has poke, some damage steroids, a slow, and a root. That's much healthier for a solo laner than instant-cast hard cc, as hard as it is to say. Varus isn't unhealthy to lane against, so there's no reason to force him to go bot lane.

DanofDemaciaJul 3, 20151 votes

Have u watched varus mid? Literally everyone just sits at turret out of range until someone ganks. Thats the definition of non interactive. Your saying losing half your health threw fog of war is healthy? Riot just has a problem with supports leaving bot lane. But anyone can go bot or anywhere else

LoLKiruJul 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Have u watched varus mid? Literally everyone just sits at turret out of range until someone ganks. Thats the definition of non interactive. Your saying losing half your health threw fog of war is healthy? Riot just has a problem with supports leaving bot lane. But anyone can go bot or anywhere else

Xerath

Just saying, he's still a thing. (and lategame, his Q cooldown is even lower than Varus' at an absurdly low 3 seconds with 40% CDR)

Its also important to note that Varus' Q damage is substantially reduced the more targets he has to shoot through, whereas Xerath will gladly just blow EVERY target in his way to kingdom come with no damage loss or travel time on his projectile.

I'm not saying Varus is bad (quite the opposite, he's amazingly good at what he does) but people should probably stop pretending Xerath can't do the same thing he can (in that, both of them can easily wipe away half of your health or more from FoW).

DanofDemaciaJul 3, 20151 votes

apples and oranges xeraths is alot different and easier to dodge

Zenthon PrimeJul 3, 20152 votes

As someone who mains Xerath and plays Varus for ADC (and probably caster mid starting today), it is much easier to land a Xerath Q than a Varus Q. Xerath is also better at surviving dives (they're both bad at it but still) and has a better laning phase.

BakedLotionJul 3, 20159 votes

They can't nerf varus mid without fucking over his ADC. What are they gonna do? Decrease his base damages? bitch please they cant do that or else ADC varus is fucked over more than he already is. He's not even op. His poke is so telegraphed and is weak as fk if it hits even 2 minions

Leu07Jul 3, 20151 votes

IDK what needs to be done to rebalance him, give him another passive or whatever, he is just too dominant in the midlane and scales extremely well, while also outclassing the other midlane poke picks. so BITCH PLEASE, fix his adc capabilities, but just gut that midlane obnoxiousness.

KingsgraveJul 3, 20155 votes

{quoted}

IDK what needs to be done to rebalance him, give him another passive or whatever, he is just too dominant in the midlane and scales extremely well, while also outclassing the other midlane poke picks. so BITCH PLEASE, fix his adc capabilities, but just gut that midlane obnoxiousness.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with Varus being played mid. I really don't understand why you have such an issue with it.

R0BERT CHARLESJul 3, 20151 votes

Scales very well? AD varus is not good at all in the late game. All tanks are too beefy to take real damage and ADC's have lifesteal to replenish health instantly. Most other AP poke mages scale much better than Varus, Varus's mid game powerspike is more powerful.

Razgriz990Jul 3, 20152 votes

go play against ap smite ezreal mid then rethink who the problem child really is

EDIT: I do agree however varus needs the ashe treatment, they did so well with her, I'd like to see varus get the same.

TaliyahMyBaeJul 4, 20151 votes

tbh your whole arguement seems unvalid and youre just complaining about Varus mid because most likely you played against him a few times and got destroyed :/ his Q is extremely predictable, the travel time is so easy to dodge. The only nerf i can see is them decreasing the travel speed or increasing the mana of the q but thats pretty unfair. I shit on varus with all my main mids and hes basically nothing if you know how to play right. He also cant roam as well as other mid laners zzz. Draven Draven Draven

Leu07Jul 4, 20151 votes

sigh I shall repeat to you what I have told already to medler and other guy, I have NOT faced a Varus mid, I just watched the LCS and got surprised by his performance.

DanofDemaciaJul 3, 20151 votes

they did it to lulu no one is safe

BeatzBoyFTWJul 3, 20156 votes

Varus was considered a "shit" and "unrealible" immobility ADC, resulting him in having such a low pickrates. Now he's seen loads of spotlight as a mid laner, you want to take that away & put him in the shadows again??

Differences between Varus & champions you mentioned:

Lissandra Her Q has the same standard damage when she pokes through minions to the enemy champ, while Varus's Q will have reduced damage to each enemy unit it passes, plus the fact it takes time to ramp up the damage, making him vulnerable at that point. Liss has E to escape from danger, while all Varus does is run with his two feet & needlessly burned ult.

Lulu She was picked as a Supportive Top laner, only to help assisting more on her team's mid & ADC laner. Not so much of a kill-champ, only knows how to be an annoying female Teemo(so-so~). Varus, well, just does damage & that's it.

Cassiopeia She was a rare pick as a top laner due to her immobility, but her new Q can help her get away from sticky situations better than Varus does. Her QEEWEEEEEEQEEE combo could be really annoying & hurts a lot especially when it comes to fighting against melee champs.

Additionally, why are you so enforced in having champions to be fixed at their original lane just because their Attribute says so?

Teemo Marksman/Assassin. Played top lane instead of bot.

Annie Mage/- Played as support.

Jayce Fighter/Marksman. Played as mid lane.

Ekko Assassin/Fighter. Can be played as a tank jungler.

What about these above? Where are all the arguments about these champs go, especially Teemo?

EDIT: I love how OP doesn't reply this thread as he still stubbornly spits "Varus shud be ADC, not mid" rubbish everywhere. He was useless in the Assassin meta, now at least he gets some spotlight in the Tank Meta, is that so bad? Don't try to be a meta-sheep plz.

GlevionJul 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Varus was considered a "shit" and "unrealible" immobility ADC, resulting him in having such a low pickrates. Now he's seen loads of spotlight as a mid laner, you want to take that away & put him in the shadows again??

Differences between Varus & champions you mentioned:

Her Q has the same standard damage when she pokes through minions to the enemy champ, while Varus's Q will have reduced damage to each enemy unit it passes, plus the fact it takes time to ramp up the damage, making him vulnerable at that point. Liss has E to escape from danger, while all Varus does is run with his two feet & needlessly burned ult.

She was picked as a Supportive Top laner, only to help assisting more on her team's mid & ADC laner. Not so much of a kill-champ, only knows how to be an annoying female Teemo(so-so~). Varus, well, just does damage & that's it.

She was a rare pick as a top laner due to her immobility, but her new Q can help her get away from sticky situations better than Varus does. Her QEEWEEEEEEQEEE combo could be really annoying & hurts a lot especially when it comes to fighting against melee champs.

Additionally, why are you so enforced in having champions to be fixed at their original lane just because their Attribute says so?

Marksman/Assassin. Played top lane instead of bot.

Mage/- Played as support.

Fighter/Marksman. Played as mid lane.

Assassin/Fighter. Can be played as a tank jungler.

What about these above? Where are all the arguments about these champs go, especially Teemo?

EDIT: I love how OP doesn't reply this thread as he still stubbornly spits "Varus shud be ADC, not mid" rubbish everywhere. He was useless in the Assassin meta, now at least he gets some spotlight in the Tank Meta, is that so bad? Don't try to be a meta-sheep plz.

Annie is played more as mid than as support.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/annie

Jeddy017Jul 3, 20156 votes

"Varus shouldn't be played in the mid lane",you say?

Ah,good old classic meta reinforcement.Things should always be played a certain way,in a certain place.Doesn't matter if the esport Pros (who set the original meta in the 1st place bro) are playing & thus implying it works.Let's stagnant the game some more.Oh what fun.

Leu07Jul 3, 20151 votes

Ok everyone, ignore the WHOLE POINT about Varus outclassing other poke picks and being obnoxious in the midlane just because I like and adc to go bot. Yeah, just fix on that and don't even bother to see the point, go watch some Varus in the LCS and you'll know what I'm talking about. I also don't like KogMaw and Ezreal mid because they are adc, but that's just me! I never complained about them because I don't consider them toxic and unfun, unlike Varus.

Jeddy017Jul 3, 20153 votes

Well,if it's irrelevant to the main point,why the fudge did you say shouldn't be played mid?Did you really expect people not to focus on that?

Leu07Jul 3, 20151 votes

No I didn't, I overstimated the boards. Anyways, I know what I'm saying, and you'll all know when Riot rebalances him, you'll think "F*ck, he was right!" Because Varus mid is showing the toxic, unfun, obnoxious pattern that riot hates, and they should hate it, it's pathetic.

BeatzBoyFTWJul 3, 20156 votes

Teemo Marksman/Assassin. Played in top lane instead of bot lane.

Annie Mage/-. Majority played as support instead of mid

Velkoz Mage/-. Has a mid lane champion spotlight, but still played as a support instead.

Urgot Marksman/Fighter. Majority played as mid more than ADC (tbh, this guy is WAAAAY more toxic than Varus, especially in the Tank Meta. Reduced damages, mega mana shield, & an annoying point & click EQ pokes, and all you care about is a squishy immobile ADC caster who's Q gets reduced damage with each enemy units it passes through))

OverpoweredSoapJul 3, 20154 votes

Having champions go to lanes they're not usually in is fine.

It's when they do too much and are obnoxious that it's not. That's why Liss, Lulu and Cass were nerfed, they were incredibly unfun to play against in the lanes they went in, and then there was almost no reason for them to go in the lane they were originally intended for.

The reason they were nerfed was not because they went into a different lane, it was because they were annoying and too strong when played in that lane

Varus may or may not be in that category, I don't know because I don't really watch pro play but if he is obnoxious and too good in a lane by himself, he needs to be nerfed.

DanofDemaciaJul 3, 20151 votes

and varus isnt unfun to play against? One q from out of the fog and ur backed

OverpoweredSoapJul 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

and varus isnt unfun to play against? One q from out of the fog and ur backed

I never said Varus wasn't unfun to play against. I dunno where you got that from.

I actually agree about that though, I hate getting hit by one Q and losing about half my health.

His Q is acting a lot like pre-rework Nidalee's Q.

Or you know, current Nidalee Q late game.

DreadlocksJul 3, 20153 votes

Pretty sure the main focus of this post should be how he outclasses Jayce.

MLDzXnRRRJul 3, 20153 votes

Actually he is crappy adc with his passive, so he is better played as poke caster.

Leu07Jul 3, 20151 votes

Hello? I said rebalance him, why is he so bad adc and so good in mid-sololane? There is a problem there IMO. He doesn't just "poke" he chuncks people from miles away while also being able to get freaking quadrakills with his AA and his other abilities, really, even Powerofevil shifted to Varus mid leaving Azir Cassiopeia Xerath and other champions cast aside because Varus mid right now is just too good.

MLDzXnRRRJul 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Hello? I said rebalance him, why is he so bad adc and so good in mid-sololane? There is a problem there IMO. He doesn't just "poke" he chuncks people from miles away while also being able to get freaking quadrakills with his AA and his other abilities, really, even Powerofevil shifted to Varus mid leaving and other champions cast aside because mid right now is just too good.

He still has counters mid. Try Varus vs Yasuo or Zed...

Mecha MaIphiteJul 3, 20155 votes

Or any assassin ever.

SinspunchJul 4, 20153 votes

Big deal hes played in the LCS now. IM actually happy about it. People used to play AP Varus mid before but it doesnt matter. Now people are complaining about his poke? Whatever! Let mid lane poke champ become a thing, make other poke champs faster at poking dont ruin an ADC that just happens to do as well in the MID lane. Much like EZREAL MID/Smite.

The Queen ViperJul 4, 20152 votes

... I'm pretty sure you have no clue about balance bro. Please, leave it to the game developers and pro players.

/thread.

Leu07Jul 4, 20151 votes

Yeah, no clue, that's why Meddler answered and said they would keep an eye on him. OF COURSE I WILL LEAVE IT TO THE BALANCE TEAM! I never mentioned any nerf/change to him, I just think he is quite obnoxious, but ok, you have your opinion and that's fine! people need to start to respect other people's opinion, seriously, fuck this league community, that's why many rioters don't like the boards and are afraid of it, because there is always such a negative reaction to everything! you guys are like little lads in the middle of hormones looking for conflict, grow up.

Leu07Jul 4, 20151 votes

BTW people, Varus is currently sitting in more than 75% win rate in LCS (7victories-2defeats) so balanced my ass.