A small buff for flare?

majulito·Aug 12, 2014·3 votes·915 views

Since flare upgrades at 30 stacks wouldn't it make more sense that the base on hit damage start at 30 instead of 25?

Also sorry if this thread was already here as I'm not sure if the boards and old forums are linked.

12 Comments

CatalysticFateAug 12, 20141 votes

I quit LOL for a month (or two?) during school and when i came back Flare had already been added to the game, used and deemed OP, and then nerfed. I have used it enough times to say that as a Xin Zhao and Yi Jungler it isn't even viable with however it got nerfed. There's many other better items to build that are smarter and more competitive choices. Speaking as a Silver player only, this is my opinion, that it needs a buff or otherwise left to gather dust on the shelf. I only ever see players who use it dead and covered blood on the battlefield because it's not worth having in your inventory.

TehNACHOAug 12, 20141 votes

It would probably help to actually explain your reasoning behind why it isn't viable, rather than hide behind your rank.

For example, what about its amazing gold efficiency for a Jungle item, where the Jungle can come up with much more limited resources than your lanes depending on how you play, and gold efficiency is an absolute must?

Knight SoIaire Aug 12, 20141 votes

flare relies on one bad concept you leave your team to play 4v5 when you stack, then you come and carry cause you are stacked but riot nerfed the flare so it wont make you able to do that cause its toxic gameplay, you just leave everything cause item carries the game for you if nasus would be able to 1v5 with stacks only he would be nerfed hard, and he has been nerfed when his stacks were working with crit

lets face it riot screwed the item, it was supposed to be late gamers item but it failed the moment riot added nasus to it something like 20% bonus ad and lets say madstone buildpath, would help late gamers cause they dont want to engage in fights early, and cant realy clear early, mid game and late they could gank and do proficient stuff cause item boosts their other items allowing for good offense

riot just went full retard and gave random stuff to the item

TehNACHOAug 12, 20141 votes

"Because Nasus" or "Because it was nerfed" aren't very significant arguments (^ ^')

Knight SoIaire Aug 12, 20141 votes

you understood it wrong then

if flare will be strong enough to do what it was supposed to do, it means that game is decided by junglers alone cause flare will dominate everything

on the other hand, if flare wont push the ballance towards the junglers then it means that item forces you to spend your time away from the team, and junglers biggest impact is the fact that he can get to every lane,
thats why i compared it to nasus, nasus needs stacks to win, as he gets stacks his team gets beaten, if his team gets beaten he needs more stacks, so he does not help cause he hopes that he will manage to win with stacks alone, if he could do it he would be op

im speaking about the reason for initial flare nerf, rather than buffing it riot should asjust the item to suit the champs that it was supposed to

TehNACHOAug 12, 20141 votes

if flare will be strong enough to do what it was supposed to do, it means that game is decided by junglers alone cause flare will dominate everything

Not exactly. If Flare is doing what it's supposed to do, all it's doing is creating a carry out of the auto-attack based jungler in question. The fact remains however is that (normally) two carries already exist in the team, the mid laner and the ADC. And, despite the outcries that GD so delightfully likes to enforce, no game is decided by either of these carries' match ups alone as a deciding factor that dominates everything.

The Feral Flare only needs to enable carry potential for it to have done its job, not turn the jungler into a one man army.

on the other hand, if flare wont push the ballance towards the junglers then it means that item forces you to spend your time away from the team, and junglers biggest impact is the fact that he can get to every lane,

Honestly, I find this a very subjective thing to say, as the biggest impact and one of the largest reason the Jungler exists to me is that the Jungler's existence creates a 4th resource pool. Where each lane is its own resource pool, having a Jungler allows the team to capitalize on a fourth, allowing the team more gold and better gold balance than without a Jungler.

Hell, Smite alone is a defining factor for Junglers and it doesn't even have anything to do with ganking. Early game, it's for easy clears and come late game, it's for objective control.

Trying to define Junglers as "the one guy who runs around holding the laners' hands" limits the Jungler as a role, to be frank.

The biggest problems I see with your post is that you are disregarding that there are 5 members in a team and 2 of them are already carries, and that you are essentially defining the Jungler as the "roaming support with smite".

TehNACHOAug 12, 20141 votes

Alrighty. let's reevaluate and explain to this post once again.

Honestly, I do agree that the stacking mechanic is really odd, especially since it stacks forever. Personally, I would've gone with something like a scaling AS bonus per level. Something like +x AD, +26% Attack Speed, +3% attack speed per level (total +80% attack speed level 18). Sloppy numbers, I've probably screwed something up, and Wriggle's Lantern is probably going to need a new passive to help early game sustain, but the point is still made. For auto attacking champions, all of them, the two biggest factors to create carries out of them is Attack Speed and Critical Strike Chance due to the fact that these two factors are multipliers and together raise stats exponentially for late game presence. If Riot wanted to create an item that allows for Carry Type Jungers, putting so much more emphasis on the multipliers rather than a BS stacking mechanic would've been so nice to see, and making it scale per level means that while the Jungler will still be more tempted to power farm as it's the safest/generally fastest way to level up and such and such, it doesn't outright require the Jungler in question to never leave the Jungle to get the item into a viable state late game.

The reason why I don't think the argument against Flare isn't exactly a significant argument however is because the currently existing Flare still simulates on adding carry potential to carry type Junglers. Farming is the key ingredient to any carry actually becoming a carry by the late game, what with their items often outright defining them by that point of the game. I think we both now how this is simulated with the Feral Flare. Furthermore, the stacking prerequisite creates scaling that the Jungler in question can capitalize on, another important factor carries need to consider and have. And it works, more or less, as its relatively successful numbers on lolking show. Especially since carry type junglers and pseudo-carries like Master Yi, Xin Zhao, and Warwick are using it to this success, this is why I must question Catalyst and why I say your points here don't seem significant.

CatalysticFateAug 12, 20141 votes

I was only stating my rank as reason why my opinion is only so strong: Why i don't think it's viable is because for the damage output that it does, although it helps to kill single target monsters faster, it barely does anything when pushing lane or fighting against other champions. When you get other dmg/AS items as early as flare then they will do = or greater damage and thus help clear jungle just as fast if not faster ( which adds to your gold even more ) but also you keep an item viable throughout instead of having to sell it late game because during teamfights its useless as more than a ward relative to other more common weapons

TehNACHOAug 12, 20141 votes

it barely does anything when pushing lane or fighting against other champions

Wait, isn't this even worse for Spirit of the Ancient Golem then?

As long as it has actually reached being a Feral Flare, virtually any and every auto attack champion out scales with Feral harder than with the Spirit of the Ancient Golem.

When you get other dmg/AS items as early as flare then they will do = or greater damage and thus help clear jungle just as fast if not faster ( which adds to your gold even more ) but also you keep an item viable throughout instead of having to sell it late game because during teamfights its useless as more than a ward relative to other more common weapons

*Wriggles

You sure about this?

No, I'm serious. Once again, talking about AUTO-ATTACK BASED JUNGLERS. Are you really sure the Wriggle's Lantern, one of the best items at the cost of 1900 gold for auto attackers THAT ALSO GRANTS BONUS GOLD FOR MONSTER KILLS is really going to reward less gold than other items? Are you really sure that an item that grants (ignoring resists) 87 bonus damage every auto attack while clearing the jungle alongside a 30% attack speed bonus is less stat per gold efficient than other items in that categorization?

This has nothing to do with being Silver man, this is just simple logics. It's an item for 1900 gold that gives you more stats than virtually every other in its category on top of a gold bonus while farming with these enhanced stats.

Kaisa FeederAug 12, 20141 votes

Just make champ kills grant 5 stacks and assists grant 3 stacks or something....killing a champion feels really underwhelming when they give you the same amount of stacks as a wraith camp, prompting FF junglers to never gank.

majulitoAug 12, 20141 votes

The biggest problem with flare in the past was the heal on hit infinity scaled but now that's capped at 10. Damage wise it does less than a wits end until 17 stacks (or 47 monster/champ kills and assists. That's a lot no?) and even then it provides no mpen whereas a witts reduces mr of the target making stronger still than a flare damage wise.

People claim flare is all about afk farm which isn't totally true but it doesn't really reward champion interaction much as someone stated since killing a jungle monster= killing champ. I don't think its fair that a jungler can't farm because he has to gank. Junglers need money too and can impact the game in other ways than killing. For example they can counter-jungle, provide vision since they are more free to roam than laners, and objective control. And I think flare fits that style with a ward and fast clearing. If you look at flare junglers they tend to have mediocre ganks pre-6 anyway since their damage isn't bursty so ganks tend to be prolonged and their cc is typically weak.

There is talk of trying to increase jungle diversity and helping itemization helps but people also want ganking junglers which in itself limits jungle picks. If you want to see new junglers you have to work with their playstyle and not all of them are gonna stand around camping lanes.

CatalysticFateAug 26, 20141 votes

And basically the point I was trying to make originally is being made. If you want to farm up FF to make it useful late game, then you have to go farm jg all the time. Maybe in higher tiers of ranked play you have time to jG all the time and your team knows how to dance in lane and not engage a 4 v 5, but otherwise you have an item that is stuck never reaching it's full potential unless you ditch your team to go jg and get gold/build stacks that way.

FF doesn't push lane hard enough or kill actual minions fast enough which limits real gold income unless you're in jungle and then falls off in teamfights if you don't have stacks on it.

The Meta is hard reliant on the jungler playing a roaming ganker all day until lane phase ends and your gank potential is diminished greatly if you start FF whether or not you are ganking or farming because you wont be strong enough to give a good gank.

I rarely win with FF and I almost always beat anyone who uses FF, I'd say it's just me but it's kind of odd that I always dominate other FF users and not just lose when I use it myself.