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I don't want to be that guy, but...

Brain Errör 404··7 votes·750 views

item 3123 item 3165 - %mitigates heals item 3155 item 3157 item 3193 item 3026 item 3053item 3190 - %mitigates burst

But... that's not really the issue, is it?

item 3190 - shield item 3053 - shield item 3401 - shield

item 3072 - circumstantial shield item 3504 - increases shielding

Janna Karma Ivern Rakan LeeSin Shen Taric Sona Orianna Morgana Lulu Lux - all have shields

Heals > counters poke Burst > counters heal

Shields > does both

Sustain damage > should counter shield

We know league isn't rock paper scissors. We know it's not this simple. What happens when you add all of this together? Shielding champs have access to more shields and to make it even more frustrating, even heals. I don't want to take this out of proportion, but at this point shields are really, and I mean REALLY troublesome. You know how much resources have to be wasted to burst down an ADC when there's an Ivern, Janna and Shen on the opposing team?

Janna alone is enough to disrupt an entire class that strives on bursting on the back line. I get it. You need to peel for your ADC so they do damage. But at what point is it too much? We all don't like the whole concept of losing games in champ select, but at this point if one team has 1 or 2 shielding champs with heals over the other, the match already turns into a 40/60. Of course, this is purely based on proper team comps. When taking out the ADC becomes an impossible task, the game turns into pure frustration.

I get the protect the king comp. But if 2 people successfully breach the backlines and get both their full front loaded combo off, only for the enemy team adc to either barely live, live with half health or survive due to GA, I think we need more options for getting into the backline.

I don't want this to come off as a complaint. The way the game is setup, in a way, I love it. It makes up for how often bot lane gets demolished. But at the same time, for close games, I'd like more options to be considered when trying to get in the back to take out an enemy ADC. That's all it is. At this point, shields are pretty dominant. There's a shit ton of it, and more ways to increase it. I'm not asking for items to "break" shields, but ways to mitigate how strong they are would definitely be welcomed.

38 Comments

SnakDatSmilesBak2 votes

Yup shields are very low counterplay. The only counterplay is wait or more damage. Neither is a realistic option in teamfights.

Brain Errör 4043 votes

Waiting is the worst. And we've already had, "Damage in this game is too high!" where damage has been lowered across the board. I think the game, for the most part, is heading into the right direction. We will never achieve true balance, but getting as close as possible to it would be nice.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Waiting is the worst. And we've already had, "Damage in this game is too high!" where damage has been lowered across the board. I think the game, for the most part, is heading into the right direction. We will never achieve true balance, but getting as close as possible to it would be nice.

Doesn't Riot still subscribe to the whole "Perfect Imbalance" philosophy which the game was originally built on? That pretty much guarantees that their isn't going to be a true balance, but it's all fine because of how counters work. You also mentioned 40/60, if I recall correctly, that's pretty much the ratio Riot was going for for counter picks.

I'm curious on what people consider a decent rate for the DPS. Cause this complain in regards to waiting makes it sound like the problem with shields is the duration. A shield that lasts 2 seconds may be sufficient to block a lot of Burst, but I wouldn't consider it a major problem for DPS. (unless your buying all the AS)

I also don't like that you have targeted Janna. (and supports in general) Mainly that shielding is their primary function, and they make a trade off in damage and often in defense. Yet the attitude seems to be that the trade off is never enough, and that their kits must have a counter build option. And given that Janna has only one shield, (their is heal on ult though) I wouldn't even think that she takes it too far, and I can only assume that attacks against her, include other reasons.

Last opinion on Janna and Enchanter supports in general, from a humble support main. BAN THEM. As a support main trying to find a way to measure how much impact a support has in the team comp, despite their gold/xp deficit and the fact that they are required to ward. I came to the conclusion that my main metric should be their ban rate. This is to say, if a support should have an impact approaching their laning counterparts, then they should be just as ban worthy as anyone else. As such, if they arn't cancerous enough to merit a ban, then they're not cancer.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

Just about everything in this game has a counter. As it stands, shielding and 2nd life are the only things that don't have "true" counters. I'm not really targeting supports, but with all the support item overhauls, supports are getting the best of both worlds atm. Not only are shields more common than ever, redemption has given every shielding support a way to heal. I haven't brought in people with self shields either, so that just goes to show how much more problematic shielding really is. At the same time, I don't want people's entire kit to be destroyed.

My most noticeable concern, as I've mentioned, is how hard it is to take out an ADC. A game that relies on flanking/wasting summoners/big spells etc turns into who has the most utility (in this case -- shields) to survive teamfights. My whole proposition was to bring out a way for flankers/divers/assassins, when played at 100% proficiency, a chance to actually take out the adc that they were meant to do.

I'm just asking for more options to be added to the game without taking away people's niche kit. Shields don't last 2 seconds. If it did, this topic wouldn't need to be addressed. They last just about as long as it takes for the CD to be back up. Janna's shield is on a 4 second CD late game. Shielding 4-500 dmg every 4 seconds isn't a small deal. It may not be health, but it IS effective health. That doesn't even couple in the fact of ADC's life steal. Karma/Lulu etc does the same thing.

Essychu2 votes

ivern/soraka on an adc has to be the most cancerous design ive ever seen.

it takes me 30 seconds as a full build riven to kill a goddamn ezreal and even then he gets full hp in 3 seconds because of ivern shield stopping my mortal reminder from doing shit.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

Oh, don't even get me started on how cancer it is to play Riven with the enemy having shields and heals on the other team...

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

do you think part of the reason people think the game is unbalanced is part at the fault of the players? considering riot puts out stats on champs, items etc under this control setting where they base it on if two players at equal skill level play perfectly and dont make a mistake then it is balanced? but where the players are at a fault is we dont play perfectly so it might seem something is weaker then it is or stronger then it is due to our imperfections as players ?

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

That's possible but riot has shown that they're willing to wait on buffs/nerfs until the meta is "solved". They've made the mistake you mention in the past and I think they've learned from it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

well as a recent example was Maokai with the damage on his E and people making him in to a cheezy ap support . im sure riot thought NO ONE would go FULL AP and MAGIC PEN on maokai and thought it would be enough to give him damage threat that was conditional based on being in a bush and so on... people exploited the over sight ... people cried ... he got nerfed right away.

but the worst part that cheezy strategy on him was the only thing that has had a 50%+ win rate since at least midseason in season 6 other then that he has have an average win rate of 46% ... which if he is such a " low skill " champ and easy to play then he should be a higher win rate? cuz im told hard champs with hard skill caps should have lower win rates based on the skill needed to be effective on them ( vayne, yasou, lee for example) and every one cries any time these champs reach anything near a 50% win rate and shit their pants if they go over 50% regardless of how many champs in that same role have higher win rates. but my point is lower skill cap champs should by default high higher win rates but they really dont. champs who out scale and do better as game goes or champs that dominate early game and can snowball a lead do...

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

I'm sorry I don't see the relevance between our previous comments, were you trying to reply to someone else orrrr?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

you mention something bout how riot waits to buff or nerf until the meta is solved and i provided examples how this dont work

SnakDatSmilesBak2 votes

I'm not sure if English is your first language so I can overlook poor grammar and word choice, but you should be using more punctuation, capitalization, and real words if you want people to put in the effort to read your comment. Just looking at your comment made me reluctant to read it, and it took a few passes through your second paragraph - if it can be called that - to understand it.

Your supposed point that you mention at the end of your comment, which should be at the top, has nothing to do with my comment. Your example of maokai does not refute my point nor advance your own.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

listen bro... this inst an official form that needs to have all this proper grammar and bullshit ... i wrote short hand its fine if you wanna nick pick it then that is YOUR ISSUE not mine ...

i dont need to use punctuation or capitalization on a forum about a video game. it makes no difference

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

It does make a difference while trying to read your comments. Frankly it's concerning that you think proper grammar is bullshit. You're right you don't need to use any of that stuff. Though you should, it makes your posts easier to read and understand.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

whatever you wanna say

Brain Errör 4041 votes

Of course that's something to take into consideration. If, played perfectly, the item and champion setup is balanced, then there should be no complaint. However, since we know, even with perfect play, some things are stronger than others, there will always be an unbalance. Of course, no one is perfect and nothing can be played with 100% proficiency and there will always be something that can be done better -- that's just human nature.

But with enough calculations and equations, we already know some things are quite overtuned. There's no denying that.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

well how do you suggest going about fixing the balance?

i have ideas i get hate for them

1 is get rid of runes 2 get rid of masteries

balance champs on base and scaling stats and balance items - runes and masteries

84759733DEL21 votes

And then refund all the ip spent on the runes pls.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

refund them for what? its a free in game currency riot gives u to play the game... they dont have to refund anything. not like you paid for them.

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

I like the layer of depth runes and masteries add to the game. I play a lot of yorick and I have to vary my runes and masteries a lot depending on the situation. But without them I simply wouldn't have a chance in those situations.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

well in the mindset you are thinking ... NO but if they balance them items and champs like i state then it would be fine... they could ad more items and or different passives to items etc to handle whatever match up you might face

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

There are too many situations to cover with just items. The flexibility runes and masteries provide are necessary. Without it you'd have to add at leat 3-5 starting items alone, not to mention mid-tier or later items.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=89f7JiKe,comment-id=00020001000000010000,timestamp=2017-05-25T23:49:09.665+0000)

well in the mindset you are thinking ... NO but if they balance them items and champs like i state then it would be fine... they could ad more items and or different passives to items etc to handle whatever match up you might face

28% attack speed in runes is really hard to replace when you can build full attack speed items on some champions and still barely have 2.5 attack speed nowadays.

{quoted}

Doesn't Riot still subscribe to the whole "Perfect Imbalance" philosophy which the game was originally built on? That pretty much guarantees that their isn't going to be a true balance, but it's all fine because of how counters work. You also mentioned 40/60, if I recall correctly, that's pretty much the ratio Riot was going for for counter picks.

I'm curious on what people consider a decent rate for the DPS. Cause this complain in regards to waiting makes it sound like the problem with shields is the duration. A shield that lasts 2 seconds may be sufficient to block a lot of Burst, but I wouldn't consider it a major problem for DPS. (unless your buying all the AS)

I also don't like that you have targeted Janna. (and supports in general) Mainly that shielding is their primary function, and they make a trade off in damage and often in defense. Yet the attitude seems to be that the trade off is never enough, and that their kits must have a counter build option. And given that Janna has only one shield, (their is heal on ult though) I wouldn't even think that she takes it too far, and I can only assume that attacks against her, include other reasons.

Last opinion on Janna and Enchanter supports in general, from a humble support main. BAN THEM. As a support main trying to find a way to measure how much impact a support has in the team comp, despite their gold/xp deficit and the fact that they are required to ward. I came to the conclusion that my main metric should be their ban rate. This is to say, if a support should have an impact approaching their laning counterparts, then they should be just as ban worthy as anyone else. As such, if they arn't cancerous enough to merit a ban, then they're not cancer.

The problem is that Janna and other enchanters also have itemization that give them more shields, in addition to items that INCREASE their shields. A Janna shield with full heal+shield power shields for almost 400 health with just her shield and if a full duration ult goes off heals for 900 health. You add Redemption which COMES with shield power that's also 735 health to everyone, locket which is 997, it just becomes crazy. That's without counting windspeaker's blessing's other passive and her personal shield's damage amp. Add all that together and that's 3032 health for one person. Put it in a teamfight and it's 9,512 total health. You can't kill a carry with 3,000 health in shields and heals while he's smacking you to death. Sure you could say the ult only went off with one tick, but that's still 2,400 health. You're literally having to burn through an ADC's health bar twice, while being disrupted at every turn.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

I don't have any ideas on how to fix anything. I'm more of those guys who can improvise on an idea than coming up with one.

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

Both. Runes and masteries can get the fuck out. They're just further diversifying the multitudinous ways through which casual players can get lost-- every mastery tree has a percentile mastery and those fuck with casuals really bad; they each have their own way, but none of them take to percent values quite the way the values are meant to be taken. IE, don't build health against Vayne.

I'm willing to bet a ton of players forget about runes and tons more sluff them off. If the champion can't function without stat nudges, then give them the stat nudges, don't make your player foot the bill. Runes just shred away competition evenness; so even if my beautiful opponent finally took all this time to understand Renekton, I'm going to have more raw stats because haw haw, been playin' longer. If skill doesn't separate the two of us, make it a mini game with points and fun music. Morde Party...

After all this, the item system probably needs a good, firm looking-at. There's all these weird existential burst items in the AP section, and all these wannabe defense items in AD. Everyone's got CDR where it shouldn't be nearly so available, and tons of champs have been abusing recent iterations of the item system to build out of the meta pretty badly.

Doesn't anyone else think maybe, just maybe the item system is a large cause for so much of the grief?

Warhammer Titan1 votes

[deleted]

Brain Errör 4041 votes

Lol.. tell me about it.

84759733DEL21 votes

I know this is irrelevant but i've always wanted an active item that stripped a zhonyas stasis away from an enemy. Like an enemy uses zhonyas, and then you use the active item to force them out of the stasis to be vulnerable again. Like how item 3222 cleanses any ally from any CC and gives them MS.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

While I would love to add something to strip zhonyas stasis, at the same time, it's not that frustrating of an item. Difference between Zhonyas and GA is that you can bait Zhonyas, whereas you have to go through way more trouble to pop GA (even though the timer on it is 3x longer).

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

Protect the king comp in a game that rewards spread efforts this highly?

I think that's your problem right there.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

I'm an idiot. Explain what you mean?

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

Nah, I was just making a vague jab at the game.

Basically, meta's shifting to area burst and insane single target burst, with HP shred to keep tanks down as quickly. Why protect your king when being near him just endangers you both? Jungles and their ganks and objectives are holding more weight than the lane.

Nah, better to just pick a roaming duelist or be a carry yourself. That way, you can carry in their stead, or bait the attention from them more readily.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

You forgot one of the most annoying shields Riven

Brain Errör 4041 votes

Didn't include self shields. if I did, we'd have a lot larger list here.

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

Didn't include self shields. if I did, we'd have a lot larger list here.

Now that I think about it, self shields aren't really a big problem(I mean I knew this but it leads to my next thoughts) because most people with self shields don't have heal+shield power and it's not usually a very big shield because of it. Yet if they did something against shields those would be included.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

Exactly why I don't want anything to exactly "counter" shields. Just something to deal with how big of a shield you get from outside sources. Kinda like how windspeakers work, except the opposite.

VoraciousX1 votes

So like an executioner's calling but for shields. Interesting idea. The only problem is it'd bring things back to the way they were before Redemption etc were introduced, except those item actives will still exist, and in the case of Redemption and Locket, it still wouldn't bring them to equal footing because you have heals and you have shields and both are increased by 50%. A shield based Executioner's would only bring it half down to the playing field, or it'd force people into building the shield based executioner's AND the actual executioner's, which would kinda be bad. I suppose they could give the effect to executioner's calling though. That might be a nice touch. Actually, now that I think about it...they could rework Executioner's passive entirely and give it - heal and shield power passive. I think that'd actually make Mortal Reminder a much more attractive purchase. So long as "heal" counts for things like Mundo ultimate, Voli passive, lifesteal, etc.

Pater Gascoigne1 votes

I love that they introduced a stat specifically for supports (Heal and Shield power). However, I have to agree that it's gotten a bit out of hand. Waiting for a shield to wear off isn't really an option since CDR is so overblown that you can just spam them.

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