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Better Bot Training for Jungler

The Aqualious··34 votes·3,830 views

Bots are important

Bots let us learn a champions abilities and give us a fell for what said champion can do

Bots are also underplayed for some people, but besides the point

In bots, there is no real way for a jungler to practice properly, and I get it "JUST BOTS RUN AP GAREN FOR ALL WE CARE", however the place that allows us to get familiar with a champion in a safe environment should not sabotage someone else's practice, since the bots will Duo top, and in Intermediate you can get some really BS parings, not to mention Bot's react poorly to ganks, not giving the proper feel for learning.

Yes this is a bit of a rant, but I feel it's necessary, Mid Lane, Bot Lane, and though different then normal game play, Top lane, all have a proper place to learn and practice that they can translate into their normal games, while the Jungler does not have that chance.

I don't know how it can be fixed or when it could be fixed, I just feel that all players of any role should have the proper chance to train, and if we did have a BOT JUNGLER, it would add another dynamic to learning how to play.

Again, this is a bit of a rant, but again, I feel it is necessary

33 Comments

A Doorknob5 votes

Other lanes don't really get training at all. You can learn your mechanics but that is it; which you could do with jg as well. Training comes within real game-play experience. Only thing you could work on with bots in any lane is your ability to CS while laning opponents. But, it still isn't the same due to the fact that bots are retarded. Best I could tell you is learn to Jg without a leash effectively so when a real game happens you blaze through jg. You could also learn when your champ should/can effectively gank and/or do dragon. You could also work on mechanics like ''animation cancelling'' aka "orb walking'' as they call it.

The Aqualious2 votes

Those are all true, you have a good point

SwiftKitten882 votes

the biggest issue i have vs bots is becuase i know their so bad... i do stupid things because it still works vs them. so u basically train yourself to do stupid things.

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

I think a tutorial just for junglers alone would do wonders. I know a bot jungler is a bit more complex for Riot to program, though I think at this point they might have the coding to a point where they could program a simple jungling routine. After that, if they can just give them keystone masteries we will be golden.

Apollogy2 votes

It's more than likely they can code an AI for jungling. It's usually just a matter of what's a priority for them.

420 grams2 votes

That's because jungles are more of a wild card. You can't really practice it since every game is different. I would recommend practicing the camp clears just the first 10 mins in a custom game, ending with drag

Apollogy4 votes

Jungling is several times more complicated than that.

Yes, it's different every game, but it's not really a wild card. A huge part of jungling is actually taking in as much information on the map as possible and making decisions based on that. Practicing clears will only help a little bit, (and in custom or bot games, you rarely get a leash, so what good does that really do you?)

There are more important parts of jungling, such as tracking the enemy jungler, being there to counter gank or to gank another lane instead, controlling objectives, vision control, invading, protecting lanes... the list goes on. These are the things that junglers need to practice, and if they could practice against bots without having a team that flames and blames them for absolutely everything that goes wrong... that'd be a godsend.

It honestly isn't your jungler's fault if you're losing your lane when he finishes clearing his 2nd camp and has 10% HP. No. He won't gank. He'll probably just die and waste time and become somewhat useless while he needs to catch back up.

But nobody cares about reason in an actual game, and a lot of people will lose focus when everyone is berating them for that kinda stuff. It's really difficult to practice a new jungling mechanic and still not slack in other areas during a normal game. You could be letting a team down while you're trying to get better. It'd be amazing if jungler's had a proper place to practice and learn how to jungle the right way.

"A great jungler will be at the right place at the right time." Emphasis on the "right" place. Some lane that's 0-3 isn't always the right place. The lane that's 4-0 but can't kill the other champ easily without some extra crowd control is a much better lane to gank. (To further deny that player and snowball someone who's going to be capable of carrying). If you're 0-3, the most I'll do is maybe gank if they're massively over extended and I got fed off of ganking the 4-0 lane and farming. At the very least, I'll ward your river bush for you.

But yeah... jungling is much more complicated than clearing camps, ganking lanes, and smiting dragons.

420 grams2 votes

{quoted}

Jungling is several times more complicated than that.

Yes, it's different every game, but it's not really a wild card. A huge part of jungling is actually taking in as much information on the map as possible and making decisions based on that. Practicing clears will only help a little bit, (and in custom or bot games, you rarely get a leash, so what good does that really do you?)

There are more important parts of jungling, such as tracking the enemy jungler, being there to counter gank or to gank another lane instead, controlling objectives, vision control, invading, protecting lanes... the list goes on. These are the things that junglers need to practice, and if they could practice against bots without having a team that flames and blames them for absolutely everything that goes wrong... that'd be a godsend.

It honestly isn't your jungler's fault if you're losing your lane when he finishes clearing his 2nd camp and has 10% HP. No. He won't gank. He'll probably just die and waste time and become somewhat useless while he needs to catch back up.

But nobody cares about reason in an actual game, and a lot of people will lose focus when everyone is berating them for that kinda stuff. It's really difficult to practice a new jungling mechanic and still not slack in other areas during a normal game. You could be letting a team down while you're trying to get better. It'd be amazing if jungler's had a proper place to practice and learn how to jungle the right way.

"A great jungler will be at the right place at the right time." Emphasis on the "right" place. Some lane that's 0-3 isn't always the right place. The lane that's 4-0 but can't kill the other champ easily without some extra crowd control is a much better lane to gank. (To further deny that player and snowball someone who's going to be capable of carrying). If you're 0-3, the most I'll do is maybe gank if they're massively over extended and I got fed off of ganking the 4-0 lane and farming. At the very least, I'll ward your river bush for you.

But yeah... jungling is much more complicated than clearing camps, ganking lanes, and smiting dragons.

But because of all that they can't make jungleing bots. To be a jungler, it takes a lot of planning and descion making that a bot just can't do. They can play mechanically and objectively well, but to plan where to be x mins ahead while deciding doing farming is too much for a bot.

ForgotToShoot1 votes

Making a decent jungling bot CAN be done, but it is so complicated the time and effort required for a gamemode that is generally played by people under level 15 (others sometimes just custom 1v5bots) simply wouldn't be worth the investment. That being said, there are plenty of people who would be willing to do it (Riot we fans love to make stuff) and it would be cool to see a topic like this in the next API contest or something. But we have all seen the conversation on bot contests and the potential problems and controversy it comes with (Dominion queues, selling lv30 accounts, etc.)

digimonteamjacob1 votes

They need challenger level bots.

The Aqualious1 votes

That's another possibility Riot could look into

B00B001 votes

Would love that

Teslyn1 votes

bots can be tuned very hard.. if you imagine what dealing with scripters is like.. so they can have some high level bots.. but i dont think people really want that kinda of level.

The Aqualious1 votes

It's not the difficulty in question, no one wants Doom bots for their default bots

The thing in question is to balance out the ability for players to practice, specifically the Top and Jungler players who face a different environment in regular game than they do in real games

RageQ21 votes

My problem with making a jungle bot is the fact that some junglers run red buff first, some run blue, some recall through half clears, some full. Some jgs gank at lvl 3 some wait till lvl 6, the amount of coding needed to be done just to get a few junglers would be insane especially when it comes to ganking, they can't just have a half health Yi at lvl 3 coming in to a duo bot with full hp and then dying, the bot would need to know specific timings and all that. I feel it was just too much for riot so they couldn't do much about a jg bot.

The Aqualious1 votes

Which is why I'm not holding my breath, I hope for it.

But know it's far from likely

RageQ21 votes

Its just, I don't think people will find having a jungle bot run into a lane thinking they can get a kill then getting killed amusing. Not that bot are already stupid enough, if that happens then riot will be kind of regretting their decision because it's just a free kill and not the actual player trying to get a kill, also for the fact that I think they either make the bots be able to clear perfectly or get the leash which brings more coding into mind for the bots that shouldn't have to be changed.

King of Mongoose1 votes

what??? just learn to farm the jungle, ask for a leash, read a guide about items and clearing

people shouldn't even jungle until level 10 where they get at least smite and masteries and some tier 2 runes, and at that point you can clear the jungle without a leash for practice

you don't need a bot jungler, because people who play bots which will mainly be the under lvl 10 people can't even jungle themselves.

Apollogy3 votes

Jungling is much more complicated than clearing camps, ganking lanes, and smiting dragons.

It's really difficult for a newer player to learn exactly what the jungler's job is, so a bot jungler could definitely help with that, along with a tutorial outlining the few dozen jobs of the jungler.

Jungling isn't really a good idea for new players though. The role is extremely complicated and difficult, and you're usually blamed and flamed by a team if you don't do everything that they think you should be doing, regardless of whether or not they're right or wrong. There's just so much to jungling, and jungling itself requires a vast amount of game knowledge and understanding...

But experienced junglers could definitely find a lot of use in an AI jungler.

King of Mongoose2 votes

{quoted}

Jungling is much more complicated than clearing camps, ganking lanes, and smiting dragons.

No it's not

The Real Sanic2 votes

[{quoted}](name=King of Mongoose,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7RRoQaiV,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-07-05T15:18:05.691+0000)

No it's not

If you think like that, you are probably a really shitty jungle.

King of Mongoose1 votes

you call me bad jungle but you play aatrox jungle which is trolling and warrants a report

Champion Skin1 votes

Aatrox might not be the best or most optimal but he is a workable and decent jungler and it isn't trolling to simply pick him jungle

King of Mongoose1 votes

it is though

ClapDatAshe1 votes

There's way more to it. Much like Support, Jungle is in charge of way more than what's visually there.

Sure, Jungle appears to farm in private, then show up in other lanes. But, the mind of a Jungler is to manage buffs, whether to give them or not. Which ones are needed. What the team needs vs. What you need.

Do I need vision of enemy wards? Is my champion Mana hungry? Does my mid need it more? Anivia item 3070

Keeping an eye on other lanes. Keeping in mind who's CD's are down. The health and mana of both laners.

Keeping in mind your strengths and weaknesses as your jungle / their lane.

A Volibear will get easily peeled by Janna in bot lane, so a gank to top with the Nasus with W on CD might be more optimal.

If I'm playing someone like LeeSin, Corki will give me a hard time if I do an Insec. But Darius? Not so much.

There's much more to say, but if you can't recognize the true importance of a good jungler who keeps these things in mind, you shouldn't belittle them.

King of Mongoose1 votes

jungle you just farm and gank and that's it

ClapDatAshe1 votes

Play more jungle, then come back.

You know, while not going 0/6 as Fiddlesticks.

King of Mongoose1 votes

u play more jungle but try to win

negative win rate in ranked lol xd

ClapDatAshe1 votes

I mostly play support in ranked. I stopped recently because other lanes tend to feed. Usually to our lack of a good jungle. (You know, spamming "gg" everytime you die is how you get LP, right?)

But I don't primarily play ranked.

My point stands. Learn how to actually jungle first before you discredit.

King of Mongoose1 votes

i know how to jungle

i take jungle and then i go gank my lanes, that how jungling works

Apollogy1 votes

Then you have absolutely no concept of what the jungle role actually is.

Awesome.

King of Mongoose1 votes

i think i know a bit more than the person who loses 6 ranked games in a row

Apollogy1 votes

If you actually looked at what happened in those games, you'd see it really doesn't have any impact at all.

People who think that junglers exist only to gank lanes are the same people who blame their jungler when they lose their own lane. Sorry, but not sorry, you're not entitled to ganks. You're not entitled to anything that you don't earn in league of legends.

If multiple people jumping on you and telling you that you're mistaken, that jungling is more than that, and you're still too stubborn to realize you've made a mistake, then that's up to you. As for the rest of us, we'll be jungling the correct way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC5qHBnnw4I

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