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Graves vs Ashe ( Balance)

King Odin··1 votes·450 views

Graves Q ( Buckshot) and Ashe's W ( Volley ) These two spells are similar in design but very different in stats.

Graves: Range: 950 Ashe: Range: 1200 Graves: Cost: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 MANA Ashe: Cost: 60 MANA Graves: Cooldown: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 Ashe Cooldown: 16 / 13 / 10 / 7 / 4 Graves: Base Damage : 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 Graves: Base Max Damage: 108 / 171 / 234 / 297 / 360 Ashe Base Damage : 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 Graves:Base Damage Scaling: (+ 80% bonus AD) Ashe: Base Damage Scaling: (+ 100% AD) Graves: Base Max Damage Scaling: (+ 144% bonus AD) Graves: Active: Graves fires three bullets in a cone, dealing physical damage to all enemies in their path. Bonus Active: Enemies at close range can be hit by multiple projectiles, but each bullet beyond the first will deal only 40% damage.

Ashe :ACTIVE: Ashe fires 7 arrows in a 57.5º cone, dealing physical damage to each target hit. Each arrow will only hit one enemy, and each enemy will only be hit by one arrow. Bonus Active: Volley also applies the current rank of Frost Shot.png Frost Shot, regardless of whether it is toggled on or not.

So Grave's Q can hit all enemies in it's blast for the full damage but each of Ashe's arrows with significantly less damage can only hit 1 enemy ? All of Graves Q can hit 1 enemy yet Ashe's is limited to 1 arrow per enemy? Graves base dmg on his Q at lvl 1 is higher than Ashes at lvl 3 and also costs the same amount of mana. At lvl 2 his base damage is higher than hers maxed out!. His Max Damage from hitting 1 target with his Q maxed out quadruples Ashe's volley base damage and also out scales it in AD. Are you going to sacrifice much better team fighting and duel power for a slow?

Reason I am only comparing these two abilities is because they perform the same role essentially. They are AOE wave clear/poke, yet 1 of them highly outclasses the other to the point that you can pick one champ over the other just because of this factor. So what do you think should be done and how should it be fixed?

Don't tell me about how Ashe can duel better because of her stun. This is very situational and depends against who.

Graves - Tons of fucking damage IMPACT PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 250 / 400 / 550 (+ 150% bonus AD) EXPLOSION PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 200 / 320 / 440 (+ 120% bonus AD)

Ashe - 1-3.5 Second Stun MAGIC DAMAGE: 250 / 425 / 600 (+ 100% AP) SPLASH DAMAGE: 125 / 212.5 / 300 (+ 50% AP

12 Comments

Beerstein2 votes

"Don't tell me about how Ashe can duel better because of her stun. This is not what we're discussing and is for another time."

Pretty sure when you're making a champ comparison regarding balance EVERYTHING is on the table for discussion (even other champs) or the discussion has already failed.

King Odin1 votes

Not true, there's nothing that justifies the fact that Ashe has such poor base damage on her 1 and only non ult damage ability. The point isn't to say that Graves is better in every aspect ( he is ) but it's that as two adc's who need those skills to wave clear it should be balanced enough that the discrepancy isn't so great.

SouL1ess1 votes

Her AD is taken into account for Volley, so R1 Volley has higher damage (~95) than R1 Buckshot (only 2 bullets hit).

Martyrofsand1 votes

Um Graves Q isn't to poke, the intent isn't "I'm gonna stand back here and buckshot you to death" for Graves it's "I'm gonna get in your face and buckshot your teeth out your ass." Ashe wants to use Volley from a distance, Graves wants to use his buckshot and point blank, just because the animation of both happens to be a cone doesn't mean the abilities are similar in design or purpose.

King Odin1 votes

Then you're most probably using him badly. As any ADC it's foolish to use your only escape as an engage into teamfights or even 2 v 2'S which is common in bot lane.

Graves and Ashe both use these abilities as stated because yes, he does use it to poke a lot in lane since it can go through minions and still do the same damage, it's even better than Ashe's because of this reason. Enemies can hide behind minions and completely ignore Ashe, whereas for Graves you simply can't evade it if you are in range. Just because it has less range and more burst doesn't mean they aren't used the same way.

Also Caitlyn and Ezreal also use their Q's to poke and wave clear except that Caitlyn's poke can be negated a little due to the dmg reduction through units. Where as Ezreal's is a hit or miss much likes Ashes

Martyrofsand1 votes

Um no, when Graves is fighting in a 2v2 in bot lane it is rather common to see him jump into the enemy ADCs face for a Q, especially if he can position it well to block/dodge their support with minions. It is where he get's his burst on champs and how he see plays where graves just gibbs someone. Now is he just going to stupidly rush in like an idiot? No he would weigh the options but a Graves that can see when he's safe to E into someones face to get the most out of his Q and the ones who just sit in the back getting minimal damage from it is what separates a great graves from an acceptable graves.

EDIT--Actually Graves and Ashe serve 2 very different purposes on a team, inspite of both being ADCs. Graves is there stricky for damage. He is going to do AoE damage with his Q and R and put out a lot of pressure that way. Ashe is going to apply constant AoE slows to the enemy team and initiate fights with her R.

Graves is who you pick when you want caster burst in bot lane, say against a Kalista.

Ashe is who you pick when your team needs more utility and CC, like we saw at the pro level when teams would pick CCless assassins for top/mid/jungle and then stack their bot lane with it via Ashe/Zyra picks.

Again two completely different purposes and their kits fit those purposes very well, which means taking their kits into account does in fact take a lot away from your points.

SouL1ess1 votes

Uhh...Graves' Q cost 100 mana R5 and his base mana pool is crap. Using his Q just to hit one bullet is an excessive waste to your mana pool and should not be done.

Martyrofsand1 votes

Trying to argue about balance while denying a look at the entire kit of a champion is silly, they function completely differently for completely different purposes. Ashe wants to use volley to stay at range, hence it applies a slow to everyone it hits, Graves want to get in your face and buckshot you, hence the increases damage to target hit by multiple bullets. There already is balance between then you just don't want to see it.

King Odin1 votes

Haha, no.

Graves can do Ashe's job better than even she can since he has an escape. He can effectively stay just as far away due to his E and then easily ult into the team fight.

I know they do to some extent play different roles but I don't see looking at the full kit to be beneficial. It adds nothing to my argument and takes away nothing. My battery is low on my laptop so I can't continue.

YossarianSensei1 votes

Yeah man I'm picking Ashe because I want to duel people

/sarcasm

PS Just because they're both cone shots doesn't mean they serve the same purpose

Only Play Darius1 votes

The difference between them is that Ashe is actually capable of functioning as a support. AOE slow, AA permaslow, long range vision, and a global stun. Maxing CDR on her can give her almost oppressive utility.

Unlike other pure ADC's such as Graves Draven Jinx Caitlyn, if Ashe is behind in gold or XP, she can still be a substantial asset to her team.

Her tradeoff is her raw damage potential is not quite comparable to the above, but comparing a pure ADC to a utility ADC like Ashe Quinn is like comparing apples to oranges.

Fizz is not Fish1 votes

Patch changes. Meta changes. But Ashe is the top 3 winrate adc for years.

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