Which is laughable in itself. This was suppose to counter auto attackers. At least increase the auto attack scaling or add grievous wounds to it which is missing in the game since the removal of executioners calling.
67chrome3 votesDear RIOT, Thornmail is now countering mages more than auto attackers.
No, no it's not. Even with liberal use of auto-attacking: a mage isn't going to deal much of their DPS in auto-attacks. Auto-Attackers have a much larger portion of their AA damage in auto-attacks.
Also - Thornmail reflects essentially the same damage to realistic levels of AD with realistic levels of armor as before. 15%+25% bonus isn't any different vs. someone like Riven than the 30% was before. Main change is it sucks more vs. critical strikes and Sheen, but now it punishes on-hit stuff like Kingblade %HP shred, Vayne True Damage, Teemo Poison, Devourer, and so on.
So rather than only being good vs. Fioramat, it's now decent vs. pretty much everyone that auto-attacks: crit-reliance or on-hit. And good in a larger amount of situations > good in only 1 situation.
50000000000000002 votesExplain? How does thornmail counter mages?
TheDarkPrince3 votesOn being hit by basic attacks, returns 15% of damage taken (plus +25% bonus armor). For thornmail to reflect the same amount of AA damage to the attacker, one should have 600 armor. Currently, entire thornmails damage gets negated by single lifesteal item.
disregardable2 votesYes, it's so crazy that you can't just buy an item and negate a whole champion.
TheDarkPrince2 votesNegate a whole champion? Lifesteal was countering it before the changes. Now it negates its entire damage. And no thornmail wasnt negating entire champion before as well. Armor Pen + any lifesteal item and any auto attack was able to kill through it.
Ahurath3 votesDude thormail was toxic. They could buy thornmail and then watch you kill yourself. You needed double life steal and a visage to counter it and that's 3 items just to counter 1.
Shonjl3 votesI don't know what you are talking about, and I am not trying to be rude. Thornmail alone would NEVER kill an ADC EVER. If it did maybe the ADC was a moron to attack a full health tank when they had like 10% hp left? I ran into more than my fair share of Rammus's which have built in Thornmail on top of getting Thornmail(Pre gutting) and I could still kill him as an ADC, at most costing like 1/3 my hp. That is what Thornmail was meant to do, it was meant to counter Lifesteal. As it is right now its so weak that Lifesteal can heal over the reflect damage. It might as well be deleted from the game since its sole reason for existing was gutted and now Lifesteal counters it.
God forbid ADCs get upset that if they don't get instant deleted its not fair to them, that thornmail made them actually have to think about how much to attack? The current state of Thornmail is it shouldn't even be an item anymore, its so terrible that it never gets built anymore and you truthfully have no reason to build it anymore. For it to be worth a damn you have to build pure armor and most tanks don't do all 1 stat, they mix MR and armor. So its crap.
Ahurath1 votesThornmail was toxic when it was at it's full power. Only way to counte rit properly was double lifesteal and visage and that's 3 items to 2 items for a jungler (cinderhulk)
TheDarkPrince2 votesI have killed every thornmail user with LW + Vampiric Scepter which most of the ADC's buy regardless.
Ahurath1 votesNo you haven't. Lw / a scepter won't heal you for more then your crits does so you'll still kill yourself slowly.
That's even more true when more ap / armor items came into the picture. But that's not the case anymore so I have no idea why we are arguing about it.
TheDarkPrince2 votesYes i did. Considering how you are defending this, you must be ADC main. And yes, it wont allow you to sustained entire damage but you will able to kill everyone with it.
Ahurath1 votesYes I am a adc main that's why I have credible ammount of experience backing up my statements.
TheDarkPrince2 votesSo do i.
Abyssphere1 votesThornmail was toxic when it was at it's full power. Only way to counte rit properly was double lifesteal and visage and that's 3 items to 2 items for a jungler (cinderhulk)
What is the point in repeating yourself? He's already responded to the argument you're making.
Stephenizgod1 votesnegated them? the fuck? Was this a max level full build tank against an ADC who just came back from AFKing at the start of the game? idk what games you were playing but Thornmail only slowed down most ADC's with Lifesteal...
Centuros2 votesThink of it this way: it still reduces the benefit auto-attackers get from lifesteal. And since lifesteal is still BS sometimes, that's a good thing.
Ahurath1 votesWell like it should be. There shouldn't be a item in the game that counters AD carries so hard that they kill themselves just by attacking the frontline. The most toxic era was when cinderhulk was released combine this with gromp buff and the thornmail and there was zero percent chance you could 1v1 a cinderhulk at any stage of the game basicly.
disregardable1 votesI liked that meta for ADCs, actually. You couldn't 1v1 them, but everyone always grouped, so you could always sit in the back and destroy their whole team.
It wasn't as interesting as Season 4, but it was better than now where nothing that you do matters 90% of the time.
Ahurath1 votesSure it's not that much about the 2v2 anymore since tp is so heaivly used now both by midlane and toplane so you can't really go agressive without unessecary risks.
My only concern for botlane would be that they nerfed teleport or something since it's something that's heavily affecting the outcome of the botlane.
And buff the ADC's that needs it like Lucian for example.
Nekusen1 votesOn being hit by basic attacks, returns 15% of damage taken (plus +25% bonus armor). For thornmail to reflect the same amount of AA damage to the attacker, one should have 600 armor. Currently, entire thornmails damage gets negated by single lifesteal item.
this doesn't explains how it counters mages
Marthian2 votesadd grievous wounds to it which is missing in the game
If thornmail needs changes, THIS ISN'T IT. GW on-hit is toxic for several reasons: There's no counterplay to it once someone builds it (basically you don't ever want to attack them, which is extremely toxic gameplay.) and Thornmail already counters lifesteal by reducing the amount you heal from it (by virtue of reflect damage reducing effective healing.)
And frankly, Grievous Wounds needs phased out of the game, and champions that suck or dominate whether you have it or don't reworked. ADCs aren't the ones necessitating GW (Carries like Kalista or Vayne that can self-peel and get away with double stacking life steal are the exception), but rather champions like Volibear, Dr. Mundo, or Swain that you need GW to deal with or they stomp all over your face most of the time.
Crett1 votesadc lifesteal needs nerfs imo, but nothing drastic
lolipopevelynn1 votesWhich is laughable in itself. This was suppose to counter auto attackers. At least increase the auto attack scaling or add grievous wounds to it which is missing in the game since the removal of executioners calling.
Thornmail is a flawed item from the start. the idea of killing ones self just by attacking is REALLY fucking stupid.
Only Play Darius4 votesThornmail is a flawed item from the start. the idea of killing ones self just by attacking is REALLY fucking stupid.
You know what else is really fucking stupid?
Melee's not being able to farm because a ranged champion is sitting all the way over there and knows how to right click you 
lolipopevelynn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7K2XEAMP,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-09-21T02:06:54.306+0000)
You know what else is really fucking stupid?
Melee's not being able to farm because a ranged champion is sitting all the way over there and knows how to right click you
invalid and stupid argument. of all the melees in game like 95% of them have a gap closer of some sort. the ones that dont have gap closers "juggernauts" have such insane movespeed either through abilities or through items like dead mans or BOTH that it doesnt matter.
Only Play Darius3 votesNot all melees have gapclosers, many ranged champions have self-peel in their kit that nullify gapclosers anyway, and whenever Riot releases a melee champion with an instant long-range gapcloser 
ADC mains are the first to cry so simply adding a gapcloser to everyone isn't the solution.
Also, compared to dashes general movespeed boosts do very little to help close the gap and prevent kiting unless it's something insane like 
. In high elo where people know how to kite, you won't ever see people like 
ever reach a competent ADC 1v1 regardless of how much flat movespeed they have, unless they are fed to hell and have enough items to take a beating.
Bears Dont Care3 votesinvalid and stupid argument. of all the melees in game like 95% of them have a gap closer of some sort. the ones that dont have gap closers "juggernauts" have such insane movespeed either through abilities or through items like dead mans or BOTH that it doesnt matter.
This is so stupidly wrong...
Koldheartedjsp4 votesThornmail is a flawed item from the start. the idea of killing ones self just by attacking is REALLY fucking stupid.
damn well i guess there is a huge list of rpg/fantasy type games with pvp combat that makes absolutely no sense. Yeah the take damage when you attack something mechanic is a new and broken concept that shouldn't exist.
Damn dude how are you so insightful
Fiveofswords1 votesdude, if you are terrified of your lol champion getting attacked, then theres an easy solution. Dont play lol.
Crett1 votespoor lich bane Veigar