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The Veigar Changes don't solve anything

Flay and Pray··46 votes·3,880 views

The Veigar changes are not going to go well at all for a number of reasons. I'm going to go through the changes now and explain now:

Passive - I am extremely disappointed riot didn't take a look at this passive. Whille a new one could still retain him gaining mana back, this is one of hue he least interactive and boring passives in the game.

Q - Baleful Strike Changed to a skill shot that stops on the second unit hit Grants 1 AP for each unit killed Range increased to 850 from 650 Cooldown changed to 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 from 8/7/6/5/4

This is the first good change on this list. It makes him risk something to use his q while buffing its potential and giving him team fighting capabilities.

R - Primordial Burst AP Ratio reduced to 1.0 from 1.2 (Ratio on enemy's AP unchanged) Mana Cost flattened to 125 at all ranks from 125/175/225 Cooldown reduced to 120/100/80 from 130/110/90

This is where things start to get bad. The mana cost and CDR reduction change are fine, but lowering the ratio is unnecessary especially due to the change below. Mid and early game with that damage nerf he will rely on landing a W Q and R to kill someone, which is impossible due to the change below. Which is the main problem

E - Event Horizon Has a 0.75 second delay with a warning particle before the walls appear Mana Cost decreased to 80/85/90/95/100 from 80/90/100/110/120 Cooldown reduced to 18/17/16/15/14 from 20/19/18/17/16 Range increased to 700 from 650

Riot, after all do the creative ideas you could have done to completely change the ability, you gave it a delay and called it a day. I'm sure this looks fine on paper but think about it. Almost every Veigar caught people out at max range with this ability due to its short range. Now with the delay it's IMPOSSIBLE for him to catch people out, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing. However, his W is 100% reliant on landing his E. The circle is way too large to trap someone in it and somehow land a w. This combined with the ult ratio nerfs will makes I'm not able to do his job.

Another note, Veigar now has no way of defending himself from assassins or tower dives. He will put down his E and any champ with mobility will simply kill him before the walls even come up.

W - Dark Matter Mana Cost reduced to 70/75/80/85/90 from 70/80/90/100/110 Cooldown reduced to 10/9.5/9/8.5/8 from 10 at all ranks

But it's alright we got a lower cooldown on W. 10/10

Conclusion/TLDR: The changes make Veigar never able to land W, the ult damage nerfs are unnecessary, and the E change makes it impossible to catch people out or peel for himself. He will basically be completely useless VS assassins and not to mention tanks that are locking him down. I am severely disappointed with this rework and hope Riot gives him some form of staying alive or just completely change the E ability, which I think they should of done in the first place.

These changes keep his damage the same, but make it IMPOSSIBLE for him to use his W. Which is a big problem. If riot somehow makes him able to land it more consistently without making it broken, I would be so happy.

KEEP IN MIND: I realize this is PBE and things change, I am basing this post around what they said specifically about number changes.

87 Comments

Waawee45 votes

This is what the changes look like to me:

"Veigar lost a lot of burst with the removal of dfg, therefore, we are increasing the cooldown of his q late game, reducing his ult's ratio and adding a delay on his stun so high mobility assassins like leblanc and zed can burst him down before the stun can even land. Don't worry though because we can are reducing the cooldown on his impossible to hit w!"

Extreme Troller10 votes

Ya this is hilarious, they are not even ashamed to post that on their forum. They are like, ooh our change seems pretty good let's share with our community. LOL. This is going to get changed btw, sounds impossible to let veigar in 5.4 with these changes

Kingsgrave7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Extreme Troller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7JYupVgw,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-02-13T15:38:12.533+0000)

Ya this is hilarious, they are not even ashamed to post that on their forum. They are like, ooh our change seems pretty good let's share with our community. LOL. This is going to get changed btw, sounds impossible to let veigar in 5.4 with these changes

To be fair, this could be the exact same situation as Ahri. Every single person on the forums cried out that it was a nerf and honestly the change to Veigar's Q alone warrants a lot of caution.

It could easily allow him to actually lane against many things. It could easily cause him to actually become competent beyond mastering him after 1000 games.

Wait to test it out first honestly.

Thryale4 votes

I don't like the change to his q.

I've been playing a lot of veig recently, and changing his q to a skill shot is going to fundamentally change veig's play style.

  • early game q stacking is going to be tricky at best and at worst will cause him to miss stacks he could've had and will cause him to shove the lane.
  • with the loss of his only reliable source of dps (ult is insane burst, not reliable dps) veig will now shift to a siege/poke mage ala nid nuclear spears of ye olde timee.

while I agree that the best way of nerfing veig's stun was to give it a slight delay, I feel that .75 secs is going to be way too long and will cause his stun to be utterly useless in catching ppl out and saving his own skin.

All in all, I agree with the statement posted above yours: Riot, "Durr, veig lost some burst when we removed DFG. Let's 'buff' him by removing MORE dmg from his kit and make his reliable spells UNreliable! In exchange, we'll finally give him those mana cost adjustments he's been needing for 3 years now."

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

but dont forget that its lux style skillshot this is what actualy seems like a good change it makes him more able to deal with both minions and walls of champions since his q can hit two targets per cast

the cage change seems to be a gut but the q change seems to be something usefull

Kuro Banshee1 votes

But you need to take into account that minions tend to move and won't always be in the optimal position to safely get two stacks at once early game. Like Thryale and no doubt others have said, this will cause him to push lane and with his lack of mobility.

But at the same time some less experienced Veigars will no doubt attempt to move into a disadvantage position in order to take advantage of the two for one cast. This leaves them at the mercy of their lane opponents or enemy ganks. True this is their fault for making the bad decision but at the same time Riot gave them idea to do it in the first place.

Beside the way riots been balancing non-LC$ big playz champions as of the late I doubt they'll allow veigar to maintain full damage to both targets.

ImpendingDeath2 votes

I fully expect them to wipe their palms together, say "We did it, boys!" and call it a day after these Veigar changes.

Knight SoIaire 4 votes

This is what the changes look like to me: "Veigar lost a lot of burst with the removal of dfg, therefore, we are increasing the cooldown of his q late game, reducing his ult's ratio and adding a delay on his stun so high mobility assassins like leblanc and zed can burst him down before the stun can even land. Don't worry though because we can are reducing the cooldown on his impossible to hit w!"

to mee it seems like they just dont want to notice that veigar is a slow paced champion while they were increasing the tempo of the game for like 4 years straight
so they make him even more sluggish when the only thing he realy offered were instant effect abilites

Kingsgrave19 votes

His Stun field needs a slow inside the cage and his Dark Matter needs to fall faster

Other than that these changes look really good. Test them when they come out on the PBE.

CupcakeTrap5 votes

{quoted}

His Stun field needs a slow inside the cage and his Dark Matter needs to fall faster

Other than that these changes look really good. Test them when they come out on the PBE.

I like the idea of a silence inside the cage.

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

I like the idea of a silence inside the cage.

Thats ridiculously OP. They're either hard CCd or harder CCd. A small slow is manageable and not nearly as broken.

CupcakeTrap3 votes

{quoted}

Thats ridiculously OP. They're either hard CCd or harder CCd. A small slow is manageable and not nearly as broken.

My issue with a slow is that it doesn't do anything to people like Kat, and it doesn't stop people from using their dash-kill-combo to pounce on you.

Normally, I'd say that his backup response would be a one-shot. But without DFG, his ability to one-shot is severely reduced. (Check the arithmetic. It is.)

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

My issue with a slow is that it doesn't do anything to people like Kat, and it doesn't stop people from using their dash-kill-combo to pounce on you.

Normally, I'd say that his backup response would be a one-shot. But without DFG, his ability to one-shot is severely reduced. (Check the arithmetic. It is.)

Well honestly his Stun never should have been an aim it precisely and automatically instant stun people. It was always supposed to be timed.

If the slow happened immediately, even during the .75 delay for the cage to appear, it would allow Veigar to at least stay away from Kat.

Zarxis4 votes

{quoted}

Well honestly his Stun never should have been an aim it precisely and automatically instant stun people. It was always supposed to be timed.

If the slow happened immediately, even during the .75 delay for the cage to appear, it would allow Veigar to at least stay away from Kat.

The slow might help a bit, but the cage still has a cast time. Katarina's Shunpo has the same range as Veigar's buffed E will have. Slow or not, Katarina (and other dash/blink champions) are going to wipe the floor with Veigar if something isn't done to prevent them from abusing the E delay. Well... They already do wreck Veigar, in most cases (mobility), but at least the current non-delayed E gives Veigar a chance to save himself or even turn the tables. Adding a delay to Event Horizon will nearly make it a nonfactor for mobile champions.

TTUPhoenix2 votes

Having tested it with Renekton, I can say that dashing out of the cage still stuns you - you're just stunned after you finish your dash. Which is better than walking out in some ways, worse in others.

CupcakeTrap2 votes

{quoted}

Having tested it with Renekton, I can say that dashing out of the cage still stuns you - you're just stunned after you finish your dash. Which is better than walking out in some ways, worse in others.

Yeah, I always felt that was thematically odd. It seems like dashing into the cage wall should stop them smack at the wall. If they're looking to buff him, that might be a place to start. It's confusing when someone jumps through the wall, then lands stunned on the other side. I've been trying to get through this wall next to my computer for like twenty minutes that way, and whenever I wake up from being stunned, I'm still on the same side.

Maybe I need to go WAHARGHGL BAHHAHRAHRGGAGAL and spin while I do it.

TTUPhoenix2 votes

Maybe try proclaiming that Nasus cannot escape you forever?

5 Stacks 1 Axe3 votes

I would rather have slow in the cage so his w has a slight more chanche to hit then silence

Railios14 votes

Veigar that top pick that rapes entire teams with his massive constant dps and movement Fuck you riot you are on a crusade to kill everything fun in life

Abyssphere4 votes

I think this could easily be like the Ahri changes where she was surprisingly amazing even though the changes sounded bad. I mean for one thing he's had 140 mana shaved off his level 18 combo. That's rather good.

Only thing I would do is reduce the delay on his W. With his E being harder to hit it seems fair for the duration to be reduced from 1.25 seconds to 1 second.

Junkο3 votes

The problem is, Veigar builds a Tear, so late game at levle 18 that 140 mana doesn't really mean anything. In exchange he lost 20% AP ratio on ult and will never hit his W.

Flay and Pray8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7JYupVgw,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-02-13T16:51:11.032+0000)

The problem is, Veigar builds a Tear, so late game at levle 18 that 140 mana doesn't really mean anything. In exchange he lost 20% AP ratio on ult and will never hit his W.

NEVER build tear on Veigar unless you want no mid game power. Veigar is a mid game Mage not late game. Late game is becomes impossible for him to catch out squishys due to his low range, banshee veils, merc treads, tanks, and hard engage supports. Even if he can he bursts one person and leaves. Mid game is where he is most powerful for his roaming potential and ability to burst people before they get tanky.

Junkο2 votes

Or you can build Seraph so you actually have a chance of surviving when somebody jumps on you. But heh have your ways of playing Veigar and i will have mine.

Flay and Pray1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7JYupVgw,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T17:39:34.509+0000)

Or you can build Seraph so you actually have a chance of surviving when somebody jumps on you. But heh have your ways of playing Veigar and i will have mine.

Currently, even with Seraphs you will die. Like I said, I think tear is trash for Veigar as it makes his laning phase even worse, and denies his mid game power, but you can play him how you want.

Junkο1 votes

Just curious but what do you build on Veigar? I'm just bored enough to experiment some different ways to build him.

Flay and Pray1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7JYupVgw,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T17:52:13.977+0000)

Just curious but what do you build on Veigar? I'm just bored enough to experiment some different ways to build him.

I learned this build from DaBox a challenger Veigar only main. Look at Veigar this way: he doesn't have a weak early game, just a higher chance to snowball. If you only q farmed as Veigar until you ran out of mana you would get around 17 AP. That is, if you get most of them. 17 AP really isn't that much for the cost of letting your laner roam for free and be full health. What I do instead is use most, if not all of my Q's to poke the enemy laner down. They do a TON of damage due to its low cooldown and high base. At 6 especially against AP laners this usually translates into a kill. When doing this I start flask, and take MS quints, as they allow me easier roaming and dodging skillshots to run up Q and run back. I then usually get a zhonyas against assassins or burst mages or a morellonomicom if I'm running out of mana quickly and have to stay in lane. From there build regular AP items such as Rabadons, Zhonyas, Sorc boots, and for last item you can even pick up another morello. Even without Q farming much at all I get around 120 free AP. Just remember, once you have a steady mana regeneration or blue buff you can q farm.

Terff2 votes

Well have fun poking with Q now that its a skillshot.

GummyBearWookiee2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7JYupVgw,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T17:52:13.977+0000)

Just curious but what do you build on Veigar? I'm just bored enough to experiment some different ways to build him.

Honestly...I'm thinking Rylai's would be great on him at the moment...Q to land that slow which will make it much easier to land his E. I used to run Mobility boots on him constantly...now maybe have to revert back to Sorc shoes because the whole point of the mobas was the instant engage/stun.

I'm thinking Sorcs, Rylai's, and D-cap being your main two you want to hit followed by your Void Staff. Honestly...if you're excellent at farming with your Q...you could flat out skip D-Cap. Yes it's a HUGE damage boost...but being more rounded overall could wind up being more beneficial pushing the D-Cap to a late game luxury item. For instance you can go Mobas/Sorcs, Zhonyas, Abyssal Scepter, Rylai's Crystal Scepter, Void Staff, and a Banshee's Veil. Could be fun...and you'd be a decently tanky mage in team fights to pop off more AOE W's and Q's.

Heck...play around with a Rylai's and a Liandry's and a Death cap...throw in a Void and a Will of the Ancients and go to town.

Crett1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flay and Pray,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7JYupVgw,comment-id=00070000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T17:50:10.236+0000)

Currently, even with Seraphs you will die. Like I said, I think tear is trash for Veigar as it makes his laning phase even worse, and denies his mid game power, but you can play him how you want.

you severely underestimate tear imo. it's won me games many times

Flay and Pray1 votes

you severely underestimate tear imo. it's won me games many times

I urge you to try my play style or watch a game of DaBox play Veigar.

Crett1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flay and Pray,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7JYupVgw,comment-id=0007000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-02-13T21:24:52.753+0000)

I urge you to try my play style or watch a game of DaBox play Veigar.

That's exactly how I play; I just build differently with a focus on late game.

Nucleophilic atk5 votes

At level 18, what Veigar is running out of mana?

I said from the start that Ahri changes were going to be good (even made a thread about the people crying and bumped it when her winrate skyrocketed lol). These "changes" are straight nerfs to every one of his abilities.

WarlockLaw2 votes

His q has an increased cd by level 5, he didn't gain any mobility, and I have never had mana problems with veigar after building morellonomicon (previously athenes) there is no way his win tate will spike like ahri's did and frankly I expect this to turn him into the knew olaf/eve

KnivingDude4 votes

I hope this nerf is a short joke.

emphasis on joke.

DoctorInju3 votes

Why not simply have the delay be scaled against the distance from Veigar, like the projectile on the new Soraka Q (at launch, I think they changed it)? If the box gets placed around you, 0 delay. At max range, delay with the warning. He could defend himself with it, at least.

Meep Man3 votes

Reduce the E delay to 0.5 seconds and increase his Q scaling to 0.75 and range to 900 and we got a deal Riot.

Yandere Carry2 votes

Passive - I am extremely disappointed riot didn't take a look at this passive. Whille a new one could still retain him gaining mana back, this is one of hue he least interactive and boring passives in the game.

there are worse passives

Flay and Pray2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tang Bohu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7JYupVgw,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-02-13T18:18:57.565+0000)

Passive - I am extremely disappointed riot didn't take a look at this passive. Whille a new one could still retain him gaining mana back, this is one of the he least interactive and boring passives in the game.

there are worse passives

Oh I completely agree, but that doesn't change my statement about it being bland and uninteractive.

A Superb Villain3 votes

It rewards you for having low mana on a champion with high mana costs; a bit counterintuitive.

The Ellimiist2 votes

Ummm wtf. Like I barely ever pick viegar as is. With these changes to an already lackluster champ I doubt I will ever pick him.

Q - Skill shot is fine, kinda. But why increase the CD... nerfed W - Straight up nerf E - Mega nerf R - Minor nerf

So basically nerf viegar who is already crap.

Seriously, good job, viegar will now be played less than I play urgot. Ohh wait I never play urgot.

Akesgeroth2 votes

Veigar got straight up nerfed because he's not a LCS BIG PLAYS champion.

At this rate they should just delete every champion without mobility since they're so damn intent on making them all unviable.

Kaipop1 votes

I just hate how currently there is no counterplay as a melee champ against Veigar's E. And to those saying that its hard to land his E, it's really not after you use it a few times.

Ship 0F Ducks5 votes

item 3140

Congratz u just got past his only defence

Orangesilk1 votes

I don't know, this doesn't sound so tragic, actually being forced to plan ahead when trying to land that E. Veigar was pretty binary, since he could guaranteedly stun you and then guaranteedly burst you, it was a spreadsheet thing, he either killed you or not, now theres counterplay, options, this is looking NICE.

Then again I'm hella biased, as a Chogath player, I have to live with my main CC having a 1.5 seconds delay on a similar area, and ALL of my kit relies on landing that one.

Flay and Pray5 votes

{quoted}

I don't know, this doesn't sound so tragic, actually being forced to plan ahead when trying to land that E. Veigar was pretty binary, since he could guaranteedly stun you and then guaranteedly burst you, it was a spreadsheet thing, he either killed you or not, now theres counterplay, options, this is looking NICE.

Then again I'm hella biased, as a Chogath player, I have to live with my main CC having a 1.5 seconds delay on a similar area, and ALL of my kit relies on landing that one.

It doesn't give him choices. It forces him to use his E to trap someone in the giant ass area. It needs a slow or something inside of it or he will literally have NO options. Not even the ability to land W.

TwoD1 votes

You're dumb if you think it didn't solve anything. with this change Veigar can be more flexible with his rotation and gameplay. Just because they took out a little bit of damage and gave a really short delay on the stun doesn't mean it's a "nerf", you're just exaggerating.

Drylln2 votes

{quoted}

You're dumb if you think it didn't solve anything. with this change Veigar can be more flexible with his rotation and gameplay. Just because they took out a little bit of damage and gave a really short delay on the stun doesn't mean it's a "nerf", you're just exaggerating.

and yet in the last 2 years for every regular non-mobile mage they've released 1-3 champions with stupid high mobility... this delay on his stun completely ruins his ability to counterplay the TONS of highly mobile assassins, ect that are taking over this damn game. Veigar isn't even used in competitive but they ARE nerfing him. His stun is a nerf. There is a large area where his stun wont hit you, also the actual area of the inner part of the circle is so large that you can side-step his Dark Matter before it falls in the 1.25 second delay.

Flay and Pray1 votes

{quoted}

You're dumb if you think it didn't solve anything. with this change Veigar can be more flexible with his rotation and gameplay. Just because they took out a little bit of damage and gave a really short delay on the stun doesn't mean it's a "nerf", you're just exaggerating.

Give me literally any reason how nerfing his damage, making his stun impossible to peel or catch out people with, and making his w impossible to land gives him more options. If anything this made him less flexible and fall even farther out of the meta.

TwoD1 votes

Nerfing his damage? Do you even Veigar? Impossible to peel or catch people? Have you even played it yet? Or are you over exaggerating again?

Flay and Pray1 votes

{quoted}

Nerfing his damage? Do you even Veigar? Impossible to peel or catch people? Have you even played it yet? Or are you over exaggerating again?

Whether I play Veigar or not doesn't change the fact the nerfed his damage. Look at the changes, they nerfed his ult ratio by 20%. If that wasn't enough I have in fact watched and played the new Veigar. I feel like his E is completely laughable in almost every situation, it needs some sort of effect inside of the cage to give enemies a choice to either stay inside to leave it. He has no method of escape, engage, or peel after these changes, not to,mention they made his damage less reliable, his w impossible to land and reduced his only reliable ability. Everything about this rework is wrong, especially in the current assassin meta.

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