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I was playing Overwatch when metagaming came to mind...

IcyPepper··25 votes·5,132 views

Don't worry, this is relevant. Not a "Overwatch > LoL" thread.

EDIT: I want to make this clear. This thread was geared toward casual players who enjoy normals over ranked competitive. Ranked is a different environment, and while I enjoy theorycrafting and whatnot I'd rather not deal with the culture. You can still be tactical, strategic, whatever and still have fun in normals. As for ranked... I couldn't care less. That wasn't the purpose of this thread at all, and I'm starting to get sick of people who've completely missed the point. Especially the ones who warp my words or put others into my mouth. That shitty mentality is the opposite of the message I was trying to send, and I'd rather not revert to that asshole I used to be. I will not be discussing ranked any further, as it has nothing to do with this thread.

So, I was playing 3v3 Elimination. For those who don't play Overwatch, it's a first to three rounds win elimination mode where you pick a hero each round and have to stick with it until you die. The map is small, and contains no health packs to heal up. Decent limiters, high stakes. Take a while guess what the metagaming is--Granted, this is an arcade map, so it's not like grandmaster ranked gameplay, but this conversation topic is geared toward "casual" players.

The meta is typically...

  1. Roadhog. A beefy tank with a hook to pick out enemies, and he can self-heal. Can usually oneshot any squishy he hooks.
  2. DPS. Soldier 76 is popular because of his healing.
  3. A healing support, usually Ana (who's grenade makes the enemy unable to heal. Are you seeing a pattern here?).

Unfortunately, this particular meta is so ingrained in some players that they will pick the same exact hero every round, even if they've lost two rounds in a row. No change of tactics whatsoever.

My thoughts:

  1. People refusing to change tactics in favor of meta miss the point of metagaming in general.
  2. People who do so also rely too much on a metagame, instead of using their own strengths (what if you're a fantastic Zarya player but you just can't land a Roadhog hook for shit?)
  3. If everyone plays the same exact meta, nobody has an advantage.
  4. Every team comp has some sort of weakness, which is mitigated if everyone is playing the same exact thing.

So, with those thoughts in mind, I experimented a little.

I ran a few no-Roadhog comps, usually Torb for the first round. If I prevailed over the enemy's meta comp (I think my WR is about 50%, suggesting that the meta is counter-able, rather than the absolute best strategy possible).

The enemy, frustrated with my change in tactics, started using a sniper to remove my turrets. My armor made it difficult for them to one-shot squishies without headshots, however.

The next round, if I lost to the sniper as Torb, I would switch to Winston to counter their sniper.

If I won that round, usually I would see a tank buster (Pharah and Reaper were popular choices, although there was a Sombra one around).

Do you see what I'm saying here? Instead of breaking the meta just to be a special snowflake, I did it specifically to counter a stale meta. The enemy wisened up, attempted to counter my strategy, and in turn I would try to counter theirs in a dynamic loop. Soon I saw more than the same three heroes every round, with Mei's and Reinhardt's and there was even an enemy Lucio one round!

How does this apply to League?

In casual play, just play what you want. Learn new strategies. Don't follow the latest, "best" strategy, use the strategy that you're good at. Player-enforced metas are boring as hell, and sometimes a little innovation actually works and it's just playerbase hesitation and fear that holds people back from the most effective strategy in the game: your personal, and team's strengths.

As for ranked play, practice is recommended first. Metagaming gives a good foundation on what to pick when matched with strangers, so metagaming isn't bad, but with some communication and practice you can shake things up. It's all about team composition. Having two ADC's, for instance, might not be desirable in some metas, but if you got a top lane Quinn but you've been secretly practicing mid-lane Darius to counter Zed while your bot laner has been dying to finally Ziggs in a competitive match... well... there you go. Obviously an unlikely anecdotal example, but opportunities only open up when you communicate with others.

The meta is NOT always the best strategy. Any team composition, any champion can be countered. The only thing that actually makes a difference is YOU.

62 Comments

Knight Sky12 votes

instead of reading aalll of that im just gonna give you a gold coin for typing so much (: item 3301

IcyPepper12 votes

I'll take your gold coin and give you a tl;dr: in return!

play to your strengths, not what someone else told you what to do... while being considerate

Knight Sky10 votes

bravo! you get a big coinitem 3096

IcyPepper8 votes

Oh boy, alright I'm going for tier 3!

Team communication and playing to everyone's strengths can trump the simple numbers game! Just look at the history of warfare!

Knight Sky13 votes

Youve done it again! Achivement unlocked: Teemos testicle item 3069

ModKnightsKemplar6 votes

Y'all are so cute together.

IcyPepper5 votes

I ship it.

50000000000000001 votes

I think you missed the most important part of the post: counter the meta.

IcyPepper1 votes

Nah, the most important thing is having fun :)

50000000000000001 votes

That's true. Settle for one of the most important parts?

IcyPepper1 votes

Certainly!

Troll for Trump1 votes

Team communication and playing to everyone's strengths can trump the simple numbers game! Just look at the history of warfare!

Also a con for the solo carry in soloQ. The team can push you forward, but it will just as often hold you back.

If we're sticking with the whole War thing, you can have a bunch of toxic ragers(WW2 Axis Forces) vs a team full of incompetence but with one carry(European countries), and lose.

Edit: Y'all downvoters need to learn your history

IcyPepper1 votes

When you have a solo carry mentality when entering soloQ, are you being a team player?

Regardless, this thread's more about casual play. I don't really have a strong opinion on the actual competitive scene, but I do enjoy general tactics and having fun in normals. Essentially, I just view it kind of like chess. Tactical, but casual gameplay.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Chess is 1v1. If you enter the game thinking your teammates are pawns, you aren't playing for the team either. There are no tactics in the game, it's mostly mechanical.

If you enter a soloQ game mode, you play for yourself.

IcyPepper1 votes

If you enter the game thinking your teammates are pawns, you aren't playing for the team either.

I never said that, though, nor did I say anything to draw any comparison like that.

Chess can be played casually, or competitively. It still requires thinking nonetheless. That was the comparison I was drawing. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

And for the last fucking time in this thread, this thread was made for CASUAL players. Jesus. How many times do I have to repeat myself until people stop the "I see this guy is telling people to have fun in casual play... BUT WHAT ABOUT TRYHARDING IN SOLOQ?!?!" That's how it comes across, it's starting to get annoying when people put words in my mouth.

Troll for Trump2 votes

I never said that, though, nor did I say anything to draw any comparison like that.

Then don't compare league to chess. Chess is a 1v1 game, LoL is multiplayer. The only "team" you have in chess are the pieces. In that analogy, the pieces would have to be the team.

And for the last fucking time in this thread, this thread was made for CASUAL players. Jesus. How many times do I have to repeat myself until people stop the "I see this guy is telling people to have fun in casual play... BUT WHAT ABOUT TRYHARDING IN SOLOQ?!?!" That's how it comes across, it's starting to get annoying when people put words in my mouth.

You're also putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about soloQ in general. When you queue up by yourself, you play for yourself, in any game mode. You play something like TT or ARAM or URF by yourself because you want to enjoy yourself.

Don't be hypocritical

A serial feeder3 votes

No offense but as a history buff, that is a horrible analogy.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Europe got screwed over.

It's hard to find something that's as easy to reference. There aren't many wars to choose from, sorry.

America vs Britain w/o interference from other countries works too.

European front/Poland, etc.

A serial feeder1 votes

You could say europe got screwed over however i would say the world came out better from it, the great depression ended, all the technology used for war was later turned to civillian use making many people's lives better, many of those european countries gave up their colonies after wich ended years of opression. Also calling the european countries incompetent is just ignorant of geography and economics. Also i don't really know enough about the america vs british conflict so i can not say much there.

Troll for Trump1 votes

You can have a bunch of toxic ragers(WW2 Axis Forces) vs a team full of incompetence but with one carry(European countries), and lose.

This is what I said.

In World War II, when only those sides (European Ally forces only vs Axis forces), the Europeans would get destroyed often. They didn't do well vs the Axis forces. Especially Germany. They didn't stop Germany from slowly creeping over more and more Westward and gain more power.

Also calling the european countries incompetent is just ignorant of geography and economics

It isn't. Taking out assistance from the other countries, Europe did a horrible job in WW2.

Your spelling/grammar also need... work.

I'm not criticizing Europe as a whole, nor am I criticizing WWII. I am criticizing Europe's actions in WW2; they didn't do much during most of it (there are a few exceptions, but overall, they did a bad job). Churchill did a good job, for instance, in managing the people.

A serial feeder1 votes

so first off most countries in europe are far smaller than germany was and is, the only one who you can make an even try and make an argument for underperforming is france.

Second off it was not a "slow creep westward", it was a sudden blitzkrieg that the germans used their superior speed to their advantage. They quickly surrounded the british and french forces in belgium which forced them to retreat back to britian. This in turn created a vulnerability in the french defences since they had put much of their resources in the maginot line which then the germans could simply go around and march to paris.

I will repeat myself again this was all made possible thanks to the germans getting their heavy machines (tanks, artillery, etc) through the ardennes which the british did not think was possible due to the natural terrain.

Third it was not churchill that did a good job, it was more axis forces lack of competence that allowed them to be beaten. The battle of britian was full of errors in the commanders strategy (constantly switching targets, not targeting air bases), hitler breaking his truce with stalin, and italy falling so fast.

Finally I lack the ability to see why you are bringing my grammar/spelling into this, it really is irrelevant to the conversation we are having.

Edit: Also several countries remained neutral until germany occupied them since they did not want to fight them, or were just too small to fight germany which in comparison to the rest of europe is a large country.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Germany is the one invading the other countries. You should be comparing power, rather than size of country.

Germany did Blitzkrieg for the war, but they had begun slowly taking over countries long before the war. All Europe did was wag their finger at them, and give them a wrist-slap.

which the british did not think was possible due to the natural terrain.

.

Third it was not churchill that did a good job,

Churchill should be praised for how he calmed the general populace, not what he did to the war. Without him, there would be a lot more Rioting and looting. That' s why he was commendable; He calmed down people in the 2nd World War.

I'm not talking about the War coillectively in the analogy. I'm talking only about the instances where Europe interacted with Germany.

Your grammar/spelling made your previous comment very difficult to comprehend.

Yeah, and Europe didn't do much about the neutral countries being taken over. Not as much as they should've.

They underestimated Germany a lot, and that is incompetent. That's without taking the other things they did.

AMYS GRAVE5 votes

instead of breaking the meta just to be a special snowflake, I did it specifically to counter a stale meta. The enemy wisened up, attempted to counter my strategy, and in turn I would try to counter theirs in a dynamic loop.

Well riot tries to rebalance imbalance their game so often that stale metas don't really develop, or put differently people don't have time to find the appropriate counter strategies naturally. This isn't our game to play with anymore, its the balance teams game, and we are their puppets.

IcyPepper1 votes

their game so often that stale metas don't really develop

I'll have to respectfully disagree. While champions do fall in and out of style, the general meta still stands. Overwatch is a different game than LoL, so my example isn't perfectly representative of how to play LoL, but certain lanes have been rather stale--Mid and bot lane are particularly frustrating examples in my opinion. Mid lane is typically high-burst champions, either mages or assassins, for good reason--it frustrates me that people don't try the naturally opposing counter to quickly level-scaling champions: bulky lane bullies, yet they're willing to send mages and some assassins top lane. Jungle is less frustrating in that sense, except metas where only bruisers or assassins are viable, and as ironic as this might sound I'd say that top lane is the most versatile and my ideal.

Riot doesn't necessarily, nor can they enforce a meta entirely. A lot of it is up to us. We don't have to play only mages/assassins mid lane, and only ADC/Support bot lane. We just do, and Riot balances around that. It's like the summoner spell flash, I suppose. It's frustrating, but the game is balanced around it. But unlike flash, which would probably be more difficult to forego entirely, we can just choose to play different things and experiment where Riots balance hasn't even touched.

Give it a shot. Leave that defeatist attitude behind and innovate a little. Play a bruiser midlane to counter an assassin. Try an item-scaling mage bot lane (Azir is a good example). Play roaming support style. Try a new champion you haven't played before. Try taking a different summoner spell than flash a game or two. Try changing your summoner spells entirely. Try off-builds, off-styles, off-roles.

You will feed at first. You will lose games. You will get frustrated.

But.

Maybe, at some point, you'll start having fun. You'll have your agency back. You'll start winning games because your strategy is too confusing, too different, too unconventional for current meta tactics to beat.

I can't guarantee shit, we're two completely different people, but when I deviated from the "meta" in Overwatch with a "I wanna win!" atittude, I had fun win or lose. I discovered new ways to play heroes (even my friends were fucking impressed when I reflexively used Torb's shift to turret-block a deadly sniper shot). New ways to play, new tactics, new ways to utilize my strengths (I am an impish motherfucker that confuses the hell out of people. It's a good thing I haven't mastered Tracer yet, but people are already starting to bitch at me).

Now, you can give my advice/opinion a shot for yourself. Or not. But if you give up and call yourself Riot's puppet, you've already lost.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Give it a shot.

I used to quite a bit.

Leave that defeatist attitude behind and innovate a little.

No need to be insulting.

Play a bruiser midlane to counter an assassin.

Been there, done it, you win lane but leave a deficiency in your team comp unless your team is coordinated with you.

Try an item-scaling mage bot lane (Azir is a good example).

Done it, again, you leave a deficiency in your comp.

Play roaming support style.

Do that all the time.

Try a new champion you haven't played before.

I have played every single champion.

Try taking a different summoner spell than flash a game or two.

I didn't take flash for a year when i started. There is a reason its taken every game. I've tried almost every combination of summoner spells (and some of those combinations have been removed)

Try changing your summoner spells entirely. Try off-builds, off-styles, off-roles.

Yup, I remember solwolf, did lots of that.

ChargeItDownMid4 votes

[deleted]

IcyPepper1 votes

There's a difference between a champion being overpowered and a strategy being overpowered.

And sometimes people don't even try to counter a champion through innovation, instead picking the same things over and over. For instance, when a midlane assassin becomes OP, why don't people try playing assassin counters like certain bruisers and balance out their team composition around that? Because people don't want to play anything besides carries mid lane, most likely, but they're perfectly willing to play carries top lane.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

Although my message is more targeted toward casual play, not the competitive scene.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

IcyPepper3 votes

This attitude is the complete opposite of the message I was going for.

I'm not talking about the competitive scene, as I feel my opinion holds no weight there. This conversation is about casual play.

Niche and surprise picks, while uncommon, do happen and nothing will ever change the fact that Miss Fortune support, AP Tryndamere, and many others were used for a victory even in the pro scene.

But if you're just going to keep up the negative attitude and tell us to pick the most overpowered uncounterable strategy while banning the most uncounterable strategy, then I got nothing for you. It's apparent you're not even willing to try and see things from my point of view. I've seen things from your point of view, and I used to hold that view, and that view is what made the game no longer fun and a mere chore at my computer.

If you got nothing else to contribute, I politely ask you to leave the conversation. This topic is geared toward casual play, particularly for lower mmr players. Call us bad or whatever if it'll make you feel better (not that I'm suggesting you should, or are the kind of person who does that), but at the very least take the best course of action to contribute positive ways to have fun with the game which was the purpose of this post.

For crying out loud, my revelation came from arcade, which is Overwatch's equivalent of ARAM.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

IcyPepper3 votes

Don't pretend they are okay,

Don't put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I ever suggest that overpowered characters or strategies don't exist, and that we should ignore them completely. I've acknowledged they exist. They obviously do. Jesus.

There is a difference between enjoying the game and burying your head in the sand about overtly overpowered strategies.

It just feels like you're trying to come up with subtle ways to insult me about things I haven't said.

People, in casual and not competitive games, should ultimately put their fun first if they so desire. If winning is a huge portion of having fun for them, and picking things they don't explicitly like is a sacrifice they're willing to make, then more power to them. If they want to win, but also pick things they like, then they have the power to practice in normals to see if they can balance winning and having fun. And if people want to pick only fun things in normals and have fun (things like, I dunno, Darius mid I guess?), then they have every right to do so.

Now, if we're done, and you don't have any more subtle insults you're probably going to justify somehow using my supposed ignorance to the game's current balancing state, I'd like to move onto more positive conversation about casual gameplay. Please.

ShaolinToilet2 votes

What has the world come to where people think everything is an insult

IcyPepper2 votes

Not everything is, but it's kind of obvious the dude was intentionally being passive aggressive and I didn't feel like putting up with it. Blame society. You're a wimp if you don't stick up for yourself, but you're a sensitive snowflake if you call them out on it. Seems like the only people not accountable for their actions are the ones who are passive aggressive or openly flame others, supposedly.

SarcasticShepard4 votes

From what I know of Overwatch, the meta there is only player enforced, rather than here, where the meta has been basically enshrined by the devs.

IcyPepper2 votes

I suppose you have a point there. From what I know, the Overwatch devs do try to shift things around a bit to encourage different playstyles if there's a dominating strategy not player enforced (Ana and D.VA were nerfed recently due to a prevailing tank meta in competitive), but the balancing levers in their game are solely hero based. League just has too many variables to balance for an "anything goes" game, loathe as I admit it, with all the items and different stats. Games are much longer, and you're stuck with the champion you chose at selection.

However, unlike LoL, the "casual" scene is much more flexible, as it imo should be. Yeah, people are going to ask for someone to switch to support or tank if your team is all dps, but at least Overwatch has the hero switching mechanic.

The two games are too different to compare fairly, admittedly. Maybe it's just easier for Blizzard with the scale of their game, or maybe Riot has made mistakes and won't admit to it in the long haul?

SarcasticShepard1 votes

Probably both factors there play in there, in response to your last sentence.

As for flexibility of LoL, I suppose the only way i could confirm or deny that would be to look at LoL back on its release, when there was a much smaller champion pool.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

While I agree with the message, there's far more to league than there is in Overwatch.

Overwatch has character comps.

League has:

  • Individual champions
  • items
  • summoner spells
  • RPG mechanics (leveling, etc)
  • runes
  • masteries
  • an overall more interactive map.

It's hard to compare the two outside of a surface level.

IcyPepper1 votes

I agree wholeheartedly.

The bottom line of my message is that you shouldn't be afraid to have fun in casual (before someone yet again brings it up, NOT SOLOQ) games, and you can still have a winning mindset without being forced to play whatever's FotM or some hardcore meta. Granted, I'm not saying to play AP Zed support or something absolutely stupid, but to be a little innovative and clever and have some fun.

I'm not a challenger player telling people how to play their ranked games and climb the ladder, I'm just casual dude who wanted to say "Remember to have fun, okay?"

Fondling Gems2 votes

Love the thread, love your points, was bugged the whole time since as a DnD player metagaming means something completely different.

IcyPepper1 votes

I'm not quite sure what you mean, and I used to play DnD a bit. Are you referring to when players interact outside of the game? Or when players use out-of-game knowledge in-game?

o.O

Fondling Gems1 votes

Out of game knowledge in game, such as searching up the creature you are fighting in the monster manual or having your character make in game decisions based on something YOU know, but that your character doesn't.

IcyPepper1 votes

Yeah, I dislike that. I love making stupid decisions by being honest to the game to see what happens. It makes for more conflicts, which is what the game's all about...

Although I believe metagaming is the correct term for LoL, but just means something different. It's similar, though, you're using resources outside of the game itself to make game decisions (aka choosing what to pick) but it's not a roleplaying experience.

TeCoolMage1 votes

well LoL metagaming is pretty similar: You use knowledge of the average player to make decisions you as a guy who didn't do research wouldn't take (like picking burst every game against 5 tank meta simply because it looks powerful)

TeCoolMage2 votes

I once tried to play harambe mid in overwatch but everyone kept telling me I can't go mid. Stupid meta slaves

Angry Monster1 votes

Hate to break it to you, but games like over watch and team fortress in low man formats are not good examples of meta breaking. Being locked into a character in over-watch is actually anti choice and game play for that game.

What you are doing is counter picking based on player habits. I am noticing that you are counting on the enemy to keep their pick after their win. You are blind hoping that they are not changing their winning pick in an attempt to mind game you.

Meta is always the best strategy, cause it is the most effective. You are forgetting that human error in game play is a factor here. There is a meta to counter picking also.

Sadly you really do not understand the topic you are talking about. Meta is just more than the champs. It is how they interact and operate with in the game and how the game play evolves.

paisy1 votes

My armor made it difficult for them to one-shot squishies without headshots, however.

You can't one shot anyone with a sniper unless you headshot them, even without armor. Sorry, that bothered me.

IcyPepper1 votes

I'm talking about headshots, though.

A Hanzo headshot will deal 250 damage. With one full armor pack and full health, most characters (Tracer and mini-DVa are fucked) can survive one Hanzo headshot. Armor reduces each instance of damage by half but only up to 5 damage (making it most effective against rapid-fire weapons). This is important especially for the support, like Mercy, who would survive with 30 health instead of instant death.

Widowmaker is a tough sell, since IIRC she does up to 300 damage at full charge. The armor will only be useful against her if you're insanely good at dodging shots, forcing Widow to shoot faster than she can charge, or you're playing a hero with 250+ hp and have an armor pack (so essentially Mei, I guess).

So yeah, Torb's armor makes it difficult for the two main snipers of the game to one-shot in 3v3 Elimination with the exception of Tracer and mini-DVa.

Cowseed1 votes

Doesn't apply to league though. Players would rather hop on popularity bandwagons/do the same thing forever and pester Riot to nerf better strategies than adapting themselves.

E.g. Post talking about Ziggs counters will die out after a few days and probably never make the front page. Post talking about Ziggs being OP will thrive and make the front page easily as well as inspire new threads circle-jerking one or two persons opinion because a few people probably got suprized by going up against Ziggs and before even thinking how/why they lost and think about the flaws in the strategy they will see a post on the boards and see a stupid number of upvotes and this'll probably give them the idea that the post is right and that Ziggs is busted and not just that they lost to a unknown strategy that game. But being as how that didn't force people to change how they play and allows them to cling to the same old stale strategy the circle-jerk dies a bit and goes on the down-low.

I do, however, like to try new things. If I see a champion with decent AD ratios but they are an AP champion I will try to work on that to see it's flaws and understand the champion a bit better. For example I do like going AD on Akali and Evelynn because that will get me the most out of the part of the kit that I want. In the grand sceme of things you can't expect these players to play the game on a more dynamic level. It will always be the same static gameplay of 'who can get fed the earliest and then rush there usual items' and never something like 'Top Quin is fed so let me max my Utility first so she can fight longer and I can hold enemies longer can peel better and we can just play a bit more safe until she ganks bot at 15mins'. Might be a bad example but hope you get what I'm saying.

Game's just never gonna go anywhere 'cause people just play OP champs and ask for nerfs :/

/rant

Edit: Just a few extra things. In low elo just about anything can work if it isn't basically negligable like AP riven. Also I realize that meta is a lot more enforced in roles other than top and support. People will never ban Janna because she isn't visually deleting your health bar but if a champion does 3% max health true damage with a 300s cooldown ult then people would more likely circle-jerk that instead of a Janna that can shield a 0/20/-12 urgot from a 20/0/34 irelia and keep him alive long enough for him to kill the super fed irelia (not to be taken seriously) people are going to probably go for circle-jerking the 3% max health champion. And the thing about top lane is you can take almost anything up there. People do not care (THANK GOD!). As long as you don't die lots you can do what ever.

inplane1 votes

Very true, TC. Very true. People don't get that "Meta" picks don't matter in an environment where people can switch heroes at will. Just because some heroes are better than others doesn't mean the team NEEDS to choose the better heroes. Personal skill and experience plays a huge role in this.

The most recent experience I've had with this kind of problem was when my team pleaded and cried for me to get off D.VA since she's "useless". They insisted me to go Zarya and I absolutely SUCK with Zarya. We lose horribly on second round and I switch back to D.Va knowing Zarya doesn't work. I ate up multiple Roadhog ults and even ate some Mei and Pharah ults. Near the end, I sucked up a Mei Blizzard and we won. If I didn't play D.Va, I would've jeopardized our chances to win because I didn't play the hero I was good with.

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