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The Vayne nerf on PBE doesn't fix any of her problems

a special one··90 votes·11,233 views

Her damage will basically be the same after level 5, and her early game will now just be more pussy. This nerf imo is really stupid, because instead of lowering her damage and her burst, u lower her q early game which is fine but at higher ranks its not lowered at all, and ult stealth duration which isn't even a problem, it will just reduce her playmaking. Why not just reduce Q dmg by 15% at ALL ranks and reduce the AD she gets from her ult, or simply make her Q bonus unable to crit. The current nerf is a tone down in power for sure, but she will still be two shotting people and her stupid damage is still there, it just makes her easier and more straight down to play. IMO it's a really stupid way to nerf her, she definetely needs a good nerf but to her damage, not to stealth duration. People complain about Vayne two shotting them with IE+Shiv, not about her stomping the lane and then stealthing for too long. RITO PLS nerf her damage

146 Comments

RiotNot Surrendering32 votes

Nerf hitting PBE tomorrow will be targeting the top end burst and also making her lane slightly softer.

LongHair Fox3 votes

What about buffing her natural counters in lane? Lucian and kalista are nowhere to be seen and they used to be able to keep her down. I mean if the early game adc's are weak then late game adc's are always going to be strong.

Spaceman5pff5 votes

People say Vayne isn't actually hard to carry with, but then I wonder if they have ever seen the 2/16 Jinx get 5 items and just take a nap while their cat gets a Pentakill.

LongHair Fox3 votes

-Jinx is also a late game carry. Once again buffing early game adc's will be a nerf since they might get shut down in lane.

Irelia Bot4 votes

Or make marksmen suck early game and make fighters, assassins and mages be early to mid game monsters that marksmen are atr the the mercy of getting massively shut down by...

Oglaf5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7AQpuOA2,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2016-11-23T02:25:33.473+0000)

Nerf hitting PBE tomorrow will be targeting the top end burst and also making her lane slightly softer.

How, exactly? Her end-game Q does the same amount of damage. You just nerfed her early game for... whatever insane reasoning you guys used...

500000000000000012 votes

tomorrow

Cosnirak4 votes

As a long time loather of Vayne... I don't want her laning to be softer. I want her late game to not be quite so absurd. I want her to be less safe. A weaker laning phase just leaves her late game further justified in terms of overall power, but leaves her gameplay LESS healthy than before.

It's good for champions to have niches, to have well defined strengths and weaknesses. But it can also go too far, making a champion too binary, and I think Vayne is already too binary and this change will only make her more so.

Dracocrash1 votes

Fizz enthusiast! Do you main fizz?

PermabannedGaren20 votes

I don't know, her invisibility being cut down is a long time coming and will make her considerably less frustrating late game.

GrReaper963 votes

Also now she can no longer abuse item 3147

Melledoneus13 votes

When was she ever?

GULAG 4 U6 votes

She can't. If you're dumb enough to attempt to proc the duskblade charges every single time, you'd lose DPS instead of gaining any.

Blåbæret15 votes

Actually the stealth is a problem and one of the main reasons late game Vayne is impossible to do anything about and target.

LatetotheRace7 votes

Mobility is what breaks her kit. The chasing is fine, the burst is fine, hell even the stealth is fine. The problem is that there's simply not enough point and click CC in the game anymore to effectively shut her down.

All Skillzz2 votes

{quoted}

Mobility is what breaks her kit. The chasing is fine, the burst is fine, hell even the stealth is fine. The problem is that there's simply not enough point and click CC in the game anymore to effectively shut her down.

that is a lie an you know it lol. even fucking around with tank vayne in silver/bronze i get cced to death and hardly able to do shit.

LatetotheRace1 votes

How many item 3086 items did you have... The movement speed she gets plus her tumble easily throws her over the edge.

im hot1 votes

Look at Vayne's spells it has q (which doesn't do dmg) w (passive) e (targetable) r (buff). In the end Vayne's kit has 1 targetable non-damaging conditional stun and rest are all autos and movements. You take away movement, her kit is 100% ruined. How is anyone gonna walk around anything and kite with same movement speed as every other champ? Consider Renekton, Tryndamere, Volibear, Zac with Armor+Movement bonus item. How is vayne with nothing but auto kite those champs, especially when they are already going 2 armor items with thornmail?

ChaoticPinecone8 votes

Did you just say her Q doesnt damage? So a 170% autoattack modifier that can deal up to 425% AD damage is "no damage"?

If thats the case, then Draven doesnt do any damage either, right?

Vesemir3 votes

At least Draven requires the player to be very very skilled except Vayne who does more damage with point and click... I dont get why they dont nerf her Q. Her Q is supposed to be an utility spell not an assassin one..

JerulEon2 votes

I wouldn't say "impossible“ lol. That's a bit over dramatic.

Ralanr11 votes

Her lower Q damage 1-7 makes it easier for ADC lane bullies to actually punish and push her back. Effectively increasing the time to her first item.

a special one22 votes

the thing is, they out trade her anyway and now she will just be farming till lvl 5. early game aggression on vayne was always an advanced thing, and never really a problem since she her enemies have to either be stupid and not auto her back or she has to outplay.

Ralanr5 votes

Then how come she kept winning early trades?

a special one21 votes

she didn't?

Penns48 votes

She did but only if she was on the enemy team feelsbadman

a special one2 votes

yep

Rivuo1 votes

{quoted}

Then how come she kept winning early trades?

What elo are you in

Ralanr3 votes

Wood 4 apparently.

The Blue Rajah6 votes

There's this thing that riot likes to do when nerfing. It's called making their weaknesses more prominent. When they buff, they buff things that are already key strengths of the champion, when they nerf, they nerf key weaknesses.

In this nerf, they're targeting her early game, an obvious historical weakness, and her safety, which has also always been a significant weakness of her's, (though people talk about it less). In the late game, if she wants to teamfight and flex her very high damage output she has to put herself at risk of being locked down and exploded since she has no way to extend her damage beyond her auto range. With the changes to pink wards, her stealth was far too powerful of a defensive tool. It's appropriate to nerf her two key weaknesses, early game and safety.

As a side note, the larger change in her ability to damage squishies in the mid game was in maxing q first. Something the koreans have been doing for a long time, but was uncommon in the west because everyone was so enamored with her true damage (which was late game strength due to it's % damage), and only switched over to after the buffs to her q.

AirKingNeo6 votes

The invisibility change is really good though.

a special one3 votes

no its not, its pointless

GULAG 4 U13 votes

Losing half of the duration is quite big.

AirKingNeo5 votes

Considering invis is practically invul and untargetablity

JQKAndrei4 votes

Bullshit, any AoE can hit her.

I wouldn't mind invulnerability tho, if you think it's the same.

Battlecast Sona9 votes

support your argument. Why is it pointless?

You say "people don't complain about her stealth" but that's what 90% of the complaints I see are about, after the Q tumble crit damage. They nerfed both things people complained about.

You're free to disagree, but if you're just gonna go around posting "no it's pointless" to people who disagree with you what's the point of even posting?

GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes

Don't know about other people but i don't mind the invis. It is okay as it is. But i mind getting a 900-1k tumble+AA crit to the face as squishy with no way to react or defend myself and if you magically survive she just E you for 15% max health true dmg. They either need to gut her Q e.g. making it unable to crit at all or only for 80% dmg like yasuo for example and buff her W a bit so she is THE tank shredder in the game. OR she is supposed to be this adc assassin but then her tank shred ability has to go. Currently she does both and it's not only frustrating but actually broken being good at everything. Self peel, tank shred, asssasination potential, hard CC, all kinds of steroids, best 1v1 out of most adcs. Riot tries to "force" champs into particular niches as to: why should i pick this adc? Waveclear? Sivir. Utility? Ashe. Massive AOE in teamfights? MF. Pick potential? Jhin. Tank shredder? Well vayne/varus but varus is shit compared to vayne. Assassin? Twitch, Vayne, Quinn. Just take the currently most busted adc. Riot failed to adress the niche of these champs but i guess we can leave out quinn because she has her huge roaming potential going for her. Vayne is currently: do they have tanks? Yes. Squishies? Yes. Take vayne. But i already see the downvotes incoming without any explanation what's wrong with what i proposed just for the sake of being edgy or some personal grudge against me.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Tbh I mostly play master Yi so i can medi her tumble auto, so no fcks given lol. I hate her stealth more than riven's entire kit though : ^)

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Well as mid main it's not a wise choice to pick Yi though i try to get syndra whenever i see a vayne. Have fun with my R to win skill :D For me there is nothing worse than rivens kit except yasuos kit :(

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I def see why you hate Yasuo as a mid main, and I respect it. I like Yi mid on most matchups, other than Yasuo because I haven't figured out how to beat it yet. Fck annie.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

I've seen a few Yi who actually done very well in mid lane which is kinda surprising to me. Melees into mages usually have a hard time but it's definitely worth a pick if you know what u do. Yeah it's not fun when half your kit gets denied by one ability ^^. Yup hate annie as well.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I'm also pretty bad at Yi mid too, I always underestimate his level 2 all in and all of those little tricks. At least when i play jungle yi i don't afk farm : ^)

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Well since there is no devourer anymore i guess powerjungling isn'T sufficient on yi? I played him just a few times in the jungle and i never understood why most yis don't gank pre 6. He isn't even weak in the early game imo.

hsumis1ove1 votes

Why do people complain about this when she has such low range? I see Jhin still engaging with his ult and one shotting people.

NineTailedMystic14 votes

Vayne is legitimately one shotting squishies with Shiv IE Q crit. For a DPS champion. That's why people are complaining.

azrolator1 votes

Jhin is kinda bs with that ult. But it is still counterable. You put a tank in front of the squishies he is targeting. But you put a tank in front of the squishies vayne is targeting, and that doesn't work. She does assassin burst damage but counters the usual assassin counters.

im hot1 votes

You have first half the game to destory Vayne in bot lane. It's not rocket science to deny Vayne in bot lane phase with Cait, Jinx, Draven, etc. You name any adc champ and its kit will be far superior to Vayne's in first 20 minutes of the game. So, if your botlane loses to Vayne, blame the botlane not the pick.

Supreme Senpai693 votes

Or maybe the bot lane doesn't lose to Vayne, but with Vayne's tumble and her support dedicated to peel for her, you just can't seem to kill her. Vayne can get fed off of CS too, and a good Vayne can easily CS without being killed no matter what. She's a time bomb and it's always been that way similar to Nasus and Kog'Maw.

That's irrelevant to any buffs or nerfs but worth pointing out it's not fair to blame the bot lane simply because she scales better than almost any other ADC

GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes

And what's the use if you for whatever reason can't end the game in 30 mins? She WILL get fed, either through CS, some assists or towers. It's inevitable. When flexQ was released i played against vayne as Jhin. She went 0/5 in botlane and 40 cs back (well she was gold 5 so it's no surprise) but their wukong (ironically her premade) was strong enough to nearly 4v5 us+ they had good waveclear. Once she had IE+Shyv+Vampiric scepter she literally two shotted me on top of wukong oneshotting me with EQR. So we couldn't end until 30 mins and they instawin because vayne. That's no healthy game design. In dota yes because literal hard counters exist. What is the hardcounter to our hypercarries? End the game before 30 min. Great.

WoonStruck3 votes

The only one that really wins during laning is Draven. Vayne's level 6 is infinitely stronger than Cait's, and its not hard to play relatively safe until then.

You'd have to play really risky and pressure under turret to really punish Vayne's range as anyone other than Draven, and you carry the risk of getting ran down by the jungler and Vayne E.

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