Riot, Why is it you do not seem interested in giving us more bans?

Arakadia·Jul 24, 2016·12 votes·7,948 views

Just a sincere honest question.

64 Comments

RiotMeddlerJul 24, 201614 votes

We're planning on looking at champion bans sometime around the pre-season/start of next season. Can't make any promises about what our conclusions will be, at the very least though we'll have a lot of thoughts to share with you folks, get your opinions on the costs and benefits of different ban numbers and approaches.

RivuoJul 24, 20164 votes

{quoted}

We're planning on looking at champion bans sometime around the pre-season/start of next season. Can't make any promises about what our conclusions will be, at the very least though we'll have a lot of thoughts to share with you folks, get your opinions on the costs and benefits of different ban numbers and approaches.

There was a good idea that someone thought of. Have people preselect banns and if majority has the same champ selected that champ is instantly banned off . Thats what you can do for the extra 2 banns per team, Then move on to the next 3 banns on each team normally. That way you can save time.

Im sure you guys could work something like that, but hey id appreciate 5 banns per team either way honestly. I think there are too many champions at the moment that need to not make it past champion select ( Azir,Jhin,gangplank ) for me

EmbertineJul 24, 20165 votes

I think that you guys should first try out a 4 ban limit per team. That way the ban limit is a bit higher and you can get a chance to see how it's effecting gameplay and the players reactions to it. Gameplay being more important. Once the data has settled a bit and you get a good feel of its effects, try out five bans and see if there's any significant change.

Obviously we don't want a massive change all at once, so let's start small and go for one more ban per team.

RaxistaichoJul 24, 20161 votes

At the very least you should swap the banning so the first three to pick ban.

I understand your meaning behind the way it's set up (first two can just secure the powerful picks so no need to ban them) but the way in which that falls flat is that the first two players to pick champions have the highest chance of being counterpicked, especially if their champ has a notorious counter that's in the meta (for instance, Quinn for Darius, Kindred for Volibear, Janna for Leona, or Irelia for most ranged tops), while the last few players to pick don't have to worry about this as much.

warpenguin555Jul 24, 20163 votes

To everybody at riot, thank you for atleast thinking about it. ive been want more bans for a while now and im excited to see if we will get it

ArakadiaJul 24, 20161 votes

Thanks a lot! This helps a crap ton.

It's nice to have answers.

ShadowParkerJul 24, 20161 votes

What are you guys planning on targeting in the preseason? Is there a jungle revamp planned?

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20163 votes

We'll be making changes to a number of assassin kits and probably some supporting systems (assassin focused items, possibly objective tweaks, masteries etc).

There'll be some non assassin stuff too of course, not ready just yet to talk about that though, nothing concrete enough at present. The teams that'll be working on that stuff are either just starting on it (having been doing support work for 6.13 previously) or are still focused on ongoing balance in the lead up to the Worlds patch (6.18).

Irelia BotJul 24, 20164 votes

{quoted}

We're planning on looking at champion bans sometime around the pre-season/start of next season. Can't make any promises about what our conclusions will be, at the very least though we'll have a lot of thoughts to share with you folks, get your opinions on the costs and benefits of different ban numbers and approaches.

Any thoughts on adapted something something like the dota 2 Captains Mode. Having some bans be reactive instead of proactive.

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20163 votes

It's something we've talked about, and can see some pros and some cons. Bans in response to picks has the potential to create some interesting choices and expression of skill. It does undercut some of the promise of one ban per player though ('you can always ban the thing you want') if you're one of the people with a later ban.

Possible solution might be slightly different pick/ban systems for different contexts e.g. Ranked 5s and Pro play have some reactive bans while regular draft has all its bans upfront.

LankPantsJul 26, 20161 votes

It does undercut some of the promise of one ban per player though ('you can always ban the thing you want') if you're one of the people with a later ban.

A good way to mitigate this is to give each premade a single preemptive ban where available. What I mean is that in a game of 2-2-1 each of the groups would get a preemptive ban and each of the two mans would get a reactive ban. That way you're ensuring that players have access to a preemptive ban at least most of the time.

KüramaJul 26, 20161 votes

Don't forget us Twisted Treeline lovers and Ranked 3s and don't forget we love you too. <3

QuephaJul 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Possible solution might be slightly different pick/ban systems for different contexts e.g. Ranked 5s and Pro play have some reactive bans while regular draft has all its bans upfront.

Regular draft almost seems more appropriate for having reactive bans since those players go into the ban phase with no information at all on the enemy team. Pro teams have an idea of what champions their opponents are playing so there actually can be some decision-making around bans while regular games just come down to "what champ is OP" and "what champ do I hate playing against" with very poor odds that you'll even hit a champion that an opponent was planning on picking.

redfeenixJul 24, 20163 votes

Yeh, not point in touching that this season.

Determine if next season if you wanna give all 5 players a ban or not. But please try to shorten the banning phase. Champ select is damn long already.

perhaps allow all 10 members to ban simultaneously?

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Yeh, not point in touching that this season.

Determine if next season if you wanna give all 5 players a ban or not. But please try to shorten the banning phase. Champ select is damn long already.

perhaps allow all 10 members to ban simultaneously?

If increasing ban numbers we'd definitely want to do some work to avoid increasing champ select duration at the same time, agreed. Even if we don't increase ban numbers that's a project I'd agree we should do regardless.

LankPantsJul 26, 20161 votes

I think the main offender in champ select time is how long each player has to chose each champ. Currently it's just excessive. It would also be good if champ select could be modified so two people can lock at the same time, although I don't know if that's feasible from a systems standpoint.

redfeenixJul 26, 20161 votes

Well heroes does this ;)

LankPantsJul 26, 20161 votes

It's more to do with how the current champ select works, there's the big circle in the middle showing the champion who's being hovered, that probably wouldn't work for two people, so it would require a systems change most likely. Old champ select also worked like this, so it's certainly possible, it just may not be possible with the current system.

ArakadiaJan 10, 20171 votes

Planning on looking at around next season's start? I'd thought it be closer than that.

RiotMeddlerJan 10, 20172 votes

Damn, that's quite the necro. We're thinking this season, not next, but can't make any promises as to exact timing until we know at least when the new client will leave beta (possibly some other dependencies too, still talking).

ArakadiaJan 10, 20171 votes

Oh, made a mistake xD.

Someone else made a comment on here, and I was thinking this was a modern thread because I left the tab open and came back. Sorry.

MadraJul 24, 20164 votes

It makes sense with the new dynamic que that each person can ban a champion.

ArakadiaJul 24, 20166 votes

How does Dynamic Q have to do with champion selection?

MavenSongJul 24, 20162 votes

He probably means new champ select. Some people still cant tell the difference sadly.

ArakadiaJul 24, 20161 votes

I knew that when I posted that comment. Some people get confused if I straight up try to explain it.

CaítlynJul 24, 20163 votes

The answer is always the LC$

ArakadiaJul 24, 20164 votes

I dunno if everything is based on LC$, especially because more bans would make LCS better.

CaítlynJul 24, 20161 votes

I agree, but Im assuming whatever their reason is, it would be something to do with its impact for LC$.

There was a thread somewhere that Riot responded to where they gave about 4 reasons why not more bans, Im not going to dig it up for you but you can find it.

ArakadiaJul 24, 20161 votes

Oker Dokers.

QuephaJul 24, 20161 votes

But they literally said they were interested in doing that.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 24, 20161 votes

because they don't want you banning entire subclasses of champions

Plus theres more to ban strategy than the average player ever thinks about

name a champion you'd ban and I'll tell you something good

MeriipuJul 24, 20165 votes

{quoted}

name a champion you'd ban and I'll tell you something good

Banning was mainly for banning stuff that outright ruins your composition right?

Well as more and more champions are added there is more and more stuff that ruins your composition more than just 3 champions that is not even counting the broken stuff that is permaban of the week

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Banning was mainly for banning stuff that outright ruins your composition right?

Well as more and more champions are added there is more and more stuff that ruins your composition more than just 3 champions that is not even counting the broken stuff that is permaban of the week

name a champion

MeriipuJul 24, 20164 votes

{quoted}

name a champion

I literally just said it is several champions depending on your composition

at the moment outside pro play sona and hecarim seem to be permabans and then you are left with only one ban to cover your composition

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I literally just said it is several champions depending on your composition

at the moment outside pro play sona and hecarim seem to be permabans and then you are left with only one ban to cover your composition

for whatever reason when talking about bans nobody ever wants to participate in an experiment in banning. I really can't imagine why anyone would be in a hurry to increase the number of bans when nobody is willing to actually demonstrate a problem in a more detailed manner.

zlumpyJul 24, 20164 votes

Game does need more bans. We have a massive group of hyper mobile AP and AD champs no one likes playing against such as leblanc, zed, ekko, katarina, etc as well as stupidly dangerous tanks like hecarim, voli, zac, leona, etc AND then we also have an entire group of champs people just hate seeing in everygame and would like more diversity such as sona, darius, irellia, GP, yasuo.

Yes I understand that all champs have weaknesses but you gotta admit more and more the newer champs weaknesses are shrinking while older champs like nunu,J4,even malphite at times really show their age and never get near as much play.

If nothing else the game needs more bans just for the sake of diversity and making games more varied.

In the past 10 or so games I think the enemy team has used the same 3 ADC picks and like 3 or 4 supports in just bot lane. I haven't seen a Janna, Lulu, Raka, Braum (which is weird), possibly bard, or any adc outside jinx, vayne, cait (again weird how there arent many ashes but maybe thats due to my team picking her a lot :P)

Bans should be about cpuntering what kills your comp like previously was stated but that becomes impossible if the enemy has access to 12 different guys that can all do roughly the same job you are trying to stop.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 24, 20161 votes

I think 6 is enough

but really we could solve this with some actual ban discussion and proving that it is or isn't enough

though interestingly ive asked to try this with anyone over 10 times and it has always been evaded for whatever reason. Perhaps the real reason they wont do it is because nobody is actually serious about getting more bans.

BakeRoIIsJul 26, 20161 votes

dude wtf do you want? the only one preventing a discussion here is you. people have already made their points and presented arguments for them. now its your turn to bring up your counter-arguments, because thats how discussions work. if your problem is that people dont name a champ for you, its because thats completely irrelevant to this topic. but just because im curious, ill say nunu. now tell me something good.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 26, 20161 votes

Nunu's teamfight combo potential and extreme jungle antics are the primary reason you'd blow a ban on nunu.

If you are concerned about wombo combos and such there are a few more to ban depending on which sort of thing you want to ban out and how

wombo combos

offense bans

Kalista Yasuo Karthus

defense bans

Amumu Blitzcrank Veigar

note that

Veigar has not had an extreme presence recently and that you can pick a champ to also deny it to the enemy team. Additionally you can just counter the pick if they firstpick it.

Before I forget there's also heavy invade

Not sure who's the worst invader right now but I figure its from this list

Shyvana Nidalee Kindred LeeSin Volibear

of these,

lee tends to fall off later. May pick him for some reason

Voli isn't all that bad

shyv isn't that strong right now

nid and kindred are having issues too

Most likely if I pick junglers it will be to prevent something very specific that counters my team's teamfight synergy or something. Considering you banned nunu, I may just do it based off counterinvade meaning kindred + nidalee and save my last ban for anything stupid in the meta

Rather than ban at random targeting whatever I feel is OP I'll be targeting what actually synergizes with your own bans. This does however mean that those who get first ban have a lot of say in the flow of the game and since they get first pick if there is anything really gross about this meta a random ban from them could mean we leave everything on the table or the second banners get 1 less or have to pick a counter to something. BUT team 2 will get last pick.

I'm not exactly struggling for bans regardless who you pick.

This is the part where you make a strong case that these bans aren't enough. Nunu is kindof easy since you started us out with a champ that is easily problematic for everyone

So I'll continue with Amumu

I've banned mumu, who will you choose next?

BakeRoIIsJul 27, 20161 votes

Ok so this is about ban strategy. But i dont see how it should turn out to prove any point regarding the topic of this thread. You cant prove a general point by giving an example.

Maybe ill continue if you tell me how you plan to make a valid point out of this. At the end, are you just gonna try to convince me that in this specific case, i/we (i didnt get if were on enemy teams here or not) dont necessarily need more than 3 bans to achieve the strategic goal that you guessed from my nunu ban, and therefore its enough in general? Because then id argue cats are generally bigger than dogs because my neighbors fat cat is bigger than my aunts chihuahua.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ok so this is about ban strategy. But i dont see how it should turn out to prove any point regarding the topic of this thread. You cant prove a general point by giving an example.

Maybe ill continue if you tell me how you plan to make a valid point out of this. At the end, are you just gonna try to convince me that in this specific case, i/we (i didnt get if were on enemy teams here or not) dont necessarily need more than 3 bans to achieve the strategic goal that you guessed from my nunu ban, and therefore its enough in general? Because then id argue cats are generally bigger than dogs because my neighbors fat cat is bigger than my aunts chihuahua.

You have 2 options

You can go another 6 years whining about a gut feeling or you can demonstrate the problem or lackthereof Even if we cannot agree on a conclusion the argument itself is what is both more important and in this case stronger

1 set of anecdotal evidence is just anecdotal evidence but add enough samples and you form a pattern

We are on enemy teams, I choose amumu after your nunu ban

Now that I think about it both are junglers so if this pattern continues I'm going to pick my jungler after I think you have.

There aren't many champs like amumu and nunu left. Your turn to ban while I think of how to exploit the lack of these types of champions. even if you ban randomly I get 4 bans plus my pick-based denials

BakeRoIIsJul 27, 20161 votes

Nah sorry this is pointless. Especially since i only play arams anymore and dont even give a shit personally. I also said nunu just because i find him ugly, so theres actually nothing to gain from this for any of us. I only responded to you because i didnt like your approach to a discussion, regardless of the topic.

You should give up on this. The sample size required to actually make valid conclusions here would be far larger than you ever have time to collect. Youd need a shitload of probands with all different kinds of mentality and playstyle, combine them to teams of 5 randomly (because theres not 1 guy banning in game) and run this "experiment" with all of those. then youd have to form new random groups of 5 several times and repeat it. then do it for all the groups again the next day, this time in a different order, for several days. then repeat this whole procedure every new patch. and thats only to generate your data. youd then have to critically evaluate it which would take at least the same amount of time again, just to come to the conclusion that it pretty much all comes down to personal preference.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Nah sorry this is pointless. Especially since i only play arams anymore and dont even give a shit personally. I also said nunu just because i find him ugly, so theres actually nothing to gain from this for any of us. I only responded to you because i didnt like your approach to a discussion, regardless of the topic.

It doesn't matter why you banned him. What matters is that by using your bans to my advantage I can push out a lot more than 3 champs. Even if you were to ban from an aram match I could do the same. I'm both demonstrating the hidden strengths of the current bans and its weaknesses.

And no, you're not going to enjoy my approach to anything at all if you give me shit over something that should be simple.

You should give up on this. The sample size required to actually make valid conclusions here would be far larger than you ever have time to collect. Youd need a shitload of probands with all different kinds of mentality and playstyle, combine them to teams of 5 randomly (because theres not 1 guy banning in game) and run this "experiment" with all of those. then youd have to form new random groups of 5 several times and repeat it. then do it for all the groups again the next day, this time in a different order, for several days. then repeat this whole procedure every new patch. and thats only to generate your data. youd then have to critically evaluate it which would take at least the same amount of time again, just to come to the conclusion that it pretty much all comes down to personal preference.

There's no need to flat out "prove" it with some overwhelming amount of data. I only have to demonstrate the current complexity and create a more meaningful discussion. If I get a draw 3 times in a row against you in checkers that doesn't mean that checkers is a guaranteed draw no matter what you do but there is at least some system for forcing draws in at least 1-3 random-ish cases. For a scientific proof this isn't enough but its plenty for a forum discussion

BakeRoIIsJul 27, 20161 votes

fizz

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 27, 20161 votes

You've started with fizz. There are a lot of reasons to ban out fizz but in all honesty, because were totally pro today, I'm just going to assume its because you don't want to deal with a snowballer that counters whatever mid pick you are strong with.. sure it could be for toplane but with these limited bans it doesn't matter what you actually banned for.

From here I could ban leblanc but I ask myself if she's really all that strong right now. Especially since you are the one banning fizz. I'm going to go against the grain and start off by banning something champs like fizz try to push out of the meta that have been really strong recently. So I'll ban azir since recently he is symbolic of this.

I'll get last pick and your first ban is mostly problematic as a midlaner. Sure he snowballs in top but the real problem is if he roams and ends the game in 17 minutes. 2 midlaners are banned now. I hope your team strat isn't centered around mid because if this keeps up I'm going to grab some advantage with the last pick. in both selection and bans.

redfeenixJul 24, 20161 votes

Ghost crawler answers that question in this thread

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BXOezvo6-explain-yourself-riot

ArakadiaJul 24, 20165 votes

Thanks!

However I disagree with most of his points. There's no reason to make 30 bans. And no team is gonna ban a certain, special comp.