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Give LeBlanc's ult a mana cost

For Carthage··42 votes·1,727 views

You guys took down her W's mana cost after removing her silence so she could roam a lot more. Well, problem is, now she's stupidly oppressive in lane with no counterplay on top of basically never having to keep her mana in check. Admittedly, her power doesn't necessarily translate reliably to the teamfight phase as is since any team that basically dogpiles on top of each other will either make it really hard for LeBlanc to target the squishies or, if it's a CC fest, will just lock her down for the two seconds it takes to nuke her.

Ripping out her power would basically sentence her to being useless the rest of the game outside of laning, so the next best thing is going to be to make her have to ration out what she's throwing out - give her R like a 75 mana cost or something and have it decrease with higher levels to keep her lategame from being any more of a nightmare for her than it already is, but keeping her early game from being this goddamn oppressive.

Alternatively, you can always give Syndra some goddamn love since Syndra's E directly counters LeBlanc's W combo and would allow people to have some counterplay to her besides having the absolutely buggy basket case that is currently "Scatter the Weak" - I've had, on multiple occasions, this skill push a charging LeBlanc to the side rather than away. Not to mention the amount of times that it won't throw the damn sphere just because you tried to combo it too early.

19 Comments

ValyrianBlade11 votes

LeBlanc has one of the lowest win rates in League and Riot just recently nerfed her Ult's AP ratios despite that. Giving her any further nerf would be ridiculous. And she has no mana worries? I think most LBs rush Morellonomicon don't they?

Syndra admittedly is another champion with similar problems. Really low win rate and yet a lot of players think she's got too reliable of burst damage with her ult. I agree entirely that she needs a buff though. She's literally the only champion I've ever refunded (I had bought her about a month before her nerf and hadn't really gotten in to playing her so for 6300IP and the rune page sale (and rune 30% off sale) I let her go.

For Carthage3 votes

I know she has poor winrates. Hell, take a look at just about every assassin or single-burst champ in the roster - they're all sucking. It doesn't change the fact that LeBlanc is absurdly oppressive in lane. I played LeBlanc for a while, and I literally stopped because I already knew myself that the champ flatout was not fun to lane against ever. There was no risk to her reward. Even Fizz could get stomped if he got ganked with his E down, but LeBlanc could just press the button again and disappear back to her spot - no harm, no foul. And playing her, I can tell you that you don't build Morell for the mana - you build it for the CDR so your Q goes on a 3 second cooldown and your W goes on 7. The only time she's ever going to see mana troubles is if she's heavily behind, and that happens to her once every hundred years when somebody goes Lulu against her. The rest of the time it's 150 mana to watch half of your health go away immediately. It's not a "I have to line up a couple of things first", it's a "I just hit my Q and W simultaneously and basically deleted you". Anybody who has played LeBlanc already realizes that once you hit level 2, all you have to do is walk remotely close to an enemy and you'll be bullying them away from farm because any trade that you instigate is going to be in your favor every single time. Once she hits 6, the opponent laner had better be good at wave clear or mobile, because staying in lane is going to result in an almost guaranteed loss.

This mana cost is to make sure the enemy laner doesn't have to back every two seconds they get to lane because the risk of LeBlanc turret-diving them is astronomical if she lands one combo. It'll also make there be actual in-lane counterplay to her, as now, if she screws up a combo, there's more punishment than "Oh, I'll just try again in 26 seconds, no biggy."

ValyrianBlade6 votes

Well, I'm not sure if it's the point you're making but she's had a low win rate for a long time. Even back when single burst assassins were ruling the game, LB had a low win rate.

What do you do against Zed? Every time I see a LB complaint thread I wonder about Zed. I get that your primary concern is LB's ONE advantage over Zed, she has an ultra-reliable combo to bully laning phase. Otherwise though: Zed has a better escape with his shadow (as he can go back and forth, and his shadow can also use abilities) Zed has an easier time cs'ing with his passive (especially if you push him under tower) Zed has waveclear (LB's only waveclear is her W, if she waveclears with it then you're free to pressure her while it's on CD) Zed has a better all-in with his ultimate (he can now switch places with 2 shadows) Zed is more useful late game (he builds AD so he gets to split push, he's more useful taking towers, dragon, baron, and is still useful in fights once his abilities are on CD). Zed doesn't even use mana, let alone just not on his ultimate.

None of this is to say Zed is OP (in my opinion he is, but that's not the purpose of this thread so I won't go in to that). It's simply to say that if you're fine with him, what's wrong with LeBlanc?

She has meaningful weaknesses: Lacks waveclear Weak in teamfights Poor duelist Easily countered by a Banshee's Veil Difficult to CS with

The only way LB is of any use is if she stomps in laning phase.

LankPants6 votes

Well, I'm not sure if it's the point you're making but she's had a low win rate for a long time. Even back when single burst assassins were ruling the game, LB had a low win rate.

Oddly enough single target assassins almost always have a low win rate, regardless of their current state of balance. LB's win rate actually isn't very strongly tied to her power, she had a 45% win rate before the removal of her silence, she has a 47.5% win rate now, she was definitely stronger when she had her silence though.

What do you do against Zed? Every time I see a LB complaint thread I wonder about Zed. I get that your primary concern is LB's ONE advantage over Zed, she has an ultra-reliable combo to bully laning phase.

Can't more than one champ in the game be lacking counterplay or unbalanced? Just because Zed's a piece of shit it doesn't mean LB can't be one too. Honestly I've always considered them too be two sides of one coin, they have most of the exact same problems.

Zed has a better escape with his shadow (as he can go back and forth, and his shadow can also use abilities)

LB and Zed have literally the same escape pattern, they both leave a mark that they can go back to on the ground. Neither of them are better at escaping. An argument can be made about Zed being better at getting into fights but I'd say that's evened out by LB having a longer engage range for fights.

Zed has an easier time cs'ing with his passive (especially if you push him under tower)

While Zed has a harder time CSing under a tower he's a lot easier to poke off of a wave due to him being melee.

Zed has waveclear (LB's only waveclear is her W, if she waveclears with it then you're free to pressure her while it's on CD)

Zed realistically has to use his W to clear a wave, at which point you can pressure him unless his ult's up. While you may not be able to pressure Zed if his ult's up you also can't pressure LB if she Ws into a wave and has her ult up as you risk taking a Q-R and possibly an E based on position.

Zed has a better all-in with his ultimate (he can now switch places with 2 shadows)

Zed all ins better, LB doesn't all in. She almost always has a range buffer to abuse that Zed just can't.

Zed is more useful late game (he builds AD so he gets to split push, he's more useful taking towers, dragon, baron, and is still useful in fights once his abilities are on CD).

That's somewhat questionable. Zed does the things you listed better but LB has her advantages late game too. She's got a higher immediate burst than Zed and can often instantly remove a squishy from a fight more effectively than Zed. She also has some capacity to peel with her double chains, which is something that Zed can't do at all.

Zed doesn't even use mana, let alone just not on his ultimate.

Which I'd say is one of the biggest design oversights that Riot has ever made.

None of this is to say Zed is OP (in my opinion he is, but that's not the purpose of this thread so I won't go in to that). It's simply to say that if you're fine with him, what's wrong with LeBlanc?

I'm not fine with either, and considering how high their ban rates have been over the last 6 months or so I'd say a decent percentage of the community agrees with me.

She has meaningful weaknesses: Lacks waveclear Difficult to CS with

Which are both mitigated by W max

Weak in teamfights

She has better options in teamfights than most assassins. The only one I can think of who's better in fights is Kat, but that's a whole issue in and of itself.

Easily countered by a Banshee's Veil

This is kind of the "Zed is weak to Hourglass" argument. It is true, but assuming everyone always has access to a counter item isn't always fair, especially since LB is rarely forced to deviate her build path.

Poor duelist

This is a weakness of the class. Every assassin should be a weak duellist, the fact Zed isn't is more of a testament to Zeds lack of balance than any thing else. It's kind of like if I tried to claim S2 Ez was balanced because he was weak to burst and S2 Graves was more broken because he didn't have the same weakness. I've picked something completely separate to their role and compared them on it to claim the weaker of the two was actually stronger. I'm not claiming that LB is stronger than Zed but I think this comparison shows that you should only compare champions based on the primary characteristics of their class.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

{quoted}

Oddly enough single target assassins almost always have a low win rate, regardless of their current state of balance. LB's win rate actually isn't very strongly tied to her power, she had a 45% win rate before the removal of her silence, she has a 47.5% win rate now, she was definitely stronger when she had her silence though.

Fair enough

Can't more than one champ in the game be lacking counterplay or unbalanced? Just because Zed's a piece of shit it doesn't mean LB can't be one too. Honestly I've always considered them too be two sides of one coin, they have most of the exact same problems.

This alone resolves most of my other comments. Just making sure OP wasn't holding a double standard. You're not the OP though, so I don't know for sure about him...

Lacks waveclear Difficult to CS with

Which are both mitigated by W max

Do people actually max W first on LB? I thought it was standard to max Q first. Does she even have decent burst without maxing Q first?

She has better options in teamfights than most assassins. The only one I can think of who's better in fights is Kat, but that's a whole issue in and of itself.

Most assassins... hmm... Champs I would consider assassins: Katarina, LB, Zed, Akali, Kassadin, Kha'zix, Rengar, Shaco

Those that can split push very well: Zed, Rengar, Shaco, debate for Akali or Kha'zix Order of usefulness in teamfights: Katarina, Kassadin, Zed, Rengar, Akali, Shaco, LB, Kha'zix

IDK those are opinions so maybe I'm just way off. I think most assassins have a better time in the late game teamfight or split push scenario though.

This is kind of the "Zed is weak to Hourglass" argument. It is true, but assuming everyone always has access to a counter item isn't always fair, especially since LB is rarely forced to deviate her build path.

THIS. THANK-YOU. And yet when I QQ about needing to build seekers against Zed and it setting my entire build back, everyone comments that I either don't need seekers for Zed or that Zhonya's doesn't hurt my build. Whenever anyone else QQs about Zed's kill pressure they're told to rush Seekers. I agree entirely, it's a PoS argument. I would comment though that an ADC can put Banshees veil as their defensive item a lot more effectively than they can QSS against Zed. LBs pressure on other roles is less than Zed's (in my opinion).

This is a weakness of the class. Every assassin should be a weak duellist, the fact Zed isn't is more of a testament to Zeds lack of balance than any thing else. It's kind of like if I tried to claim S2 Ez was balanced because he was weak to burst and S2 Graves was more broken because he didn't have the same weakness. I've picked something completely separate to their role and compared them on it to claim the weaker of the two was actually stronger. I'm not claiming that LB is stronger than Zed but I think this comparison shows that you should only compare champions based on the primary characteristics of their class.

Okay, yes, Zed is not balanced. Was sort of my point - well actually it was more so if LB is bad Zed is much worse. I mean, LB is supposed to semi-counter Ahri (at least pre 5.2) and yet (pre 5.2 changes) I played Ahri against LB and never found her to be too much trouble in lane. Annoying that I had to stay at long range, yes, but still possible to play against. I basically just played safe with the knowledge I would outscale her. Got an early pink in the river to help out bot lane so she couldn't get kills there either. A LeBlanc that doesn't get kills during the laning phase is pretty much a minion late game.

LankPants2 votes

Do people actually max W first on LB? I thought it was standard to max Q first. Does she even have decent burst without maxing Q first?

At high level yes. Your R(Q) deals the same damage no matter how many ranks are in Q, and there's only 10 damage between a rank into Q and a rank into W. But ranking W gives more wave clear and lowers your CD on W, all maxing Q gives you is 10 single target damage.

Most assassins... hmm... Champs I would consider assassins: Katarina, LB, Zed, Akali, Kassadin, Kha'zix, Rengar, Shaco

Those that can split push very well: Zed, Rengar, Shaco, debate for Akali or Kha'zix Order of usefulness in teamfights: Katarina, Kassadin, Zed, Rengar, Akali, Shaco, LB, Kha'zix

IDK those are opinions so maybe I'm just way off. I think most assassins have a better time in the late game teamfight or split push scenario though.

Out of all the assassins you listed there are only three who have a non-assassin pattern in a fight. Rengar can play a tank pattern by engaging a fight before falling back and peeling for his carries. LB can play a mage pattern by using her chains to peel for her carry and just dumping her damage onto anyone who comes close to her. Kass can play a poke mage pattern, but he's just an odd champ who's barely even an assassin at this point. This is important because out of all gameplay patterns assassin is generally the weakest in a team fight.

Akali and Shaco aren't better in fights than LB assuming someone buys a pink.

A LeBlanc that doesn't get kills during the laning phase is pretty much a minion late game.

If this was true she wouldn't see competitive play, as snowballing isn't common place in competitive.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Fine about Shaco, but he's still capable of split pushing meaning he fills a viable role late game.

I'd argue that Akali does much more sustained damage during the fight which makes he more valuable. With her ultimate she's equally good at chasing down targets. I'll accept that Akali post-recent-nerfs is garbage tier right now though, so in her current state she's weaker. That's not a good thing to balance around though.

LB's chains have a fairly long time before they proc (add on to that them being a skillshot). They're not exactly great peel for your ADC. Better than nothing to be fair though.

The point about competitive play: I'd imagine pro players still obtain massive CS with LB, meaning they can still itemize well. Add on that she's incredibly reliable and safe (which pro players love) and inherently makes the laning phase easier for allies as she's mobile enough to roam and doesn't need much jungle pressure on her lane, and she's a recipe for a pro pick. I don't see competitive players complaining that she's OP though. In solo-queue, players don't CS nearly as well (especially on someone hard to cs with such as LB) and hence if she doesn't get kills she doesn't have the necessary damage. Most LBs I see are feast or famine, either they're 7/1/3 with 50cs at 20min or they're 1/5/2 with 50 cs at 20 min (I'm making up numbers and exaggerating, but my point is that I've never seen a LB NOT get kills in lane and still be really relevant mid-late game).

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

And yet despite this being the "tank meta" she sits at 52.56% ban rate, that should be a clear warning sign of her issues when what's she's suppose to be weak against is meta, and she still gets banned that much.

And she rushes it because her mobility (and thus survivability) scale absolutely insanely with CDR when maxing w, and max CDR, she has an amazing whole 2 seconds between it (when dashes to have bounce back up to having another dash to be clear). So much for window of vulnerability, when her a back up one every 14.4 seconds, combined with her passive, if you can chain CC or burst her, she can escape/juke far too much. Not because she has mana issues.

If she had to worry about mana she'd be getting item 3174 or item 3027 she gets neither.

karkani3 votes

How about going a counter vs LB instead of complainning about how "OP" LB is and whiining about nerfing her......

thePandev3 votes

How am I supposed to pick a counter against LB as an ADC though? Literally no ADC can counter her in anyway. You get blown up in a second, literally, without having the time to react or anything. That is just toxic. Not like her combo takes skill either. All of her abilities are point and click and pretty easy to land, other than her E. But I am certain you don't even NEED it to blow up a squishy. Did I mention she has the safest design too? Her W, R and even passive make her hard to kill.

Having to pick a certain champion to counter 1 champion gives off a certain taste of toxicity by the way.

IcyPepper2 votes

How am I supposed to pick a counter against LB as an ADC though?

Well to be fair it's the apc's job to nuke the adc during a teamfight. The adc is not supposed to 100-0 anybody in a fair fight, they outscale in damage after a couple seconds which is why the frontline needs to protect them.

The counterplay to Leblanc as the adc is positioning. Ideally, your team should have cc, and since Leblanc is a carry she's a priority target for cc if she oversteps her bounds. Your support should be protecting you, and the tanks/bruisers should lock her down.

As for laning, you should have wards up and retreat if she shows her face. If you get blown up... well...

But yeah, Leblanc is an assassin mage, so you can't really counter her as an adc. That's more of a teamwork issue, although Sivir should do reasonably well if you can spellshield and maybe build item 3102 to help out.

thePandev3 votes

So I am basically zoned out of a fight if they engage and LB is around?

Her burst is simply toxic. Mid game you can kill an ADC in 1.3 maybe 1.5 seconds. Even assassins like Zed need death mark to proc before they can kill someone.

But really, I don't MIND that. Not as much as the fact that she doesn't get punished for being caught and her safety in general is just toxic for an assassin. 2 dashes and an auto Shaco passive (without the damaging clone of course) is basically a get out of jail free card.

Well, it can be argued that she loses her ult if things come to worst and she needs the extra dash. Well, its on a 20 second CD so you have it back after you recall anyways. Same with her passive.

I would actually argue she is more safe than Zed because of her passive, while having more burst.

IcyPepper1 votes

She's a bitch, I'll give you that. I hate her kit too, but unfortunately it's up to your frontline, your support, and your midlaner to counter her. If Leblanc is picked in draft, I recommend a support with good, instant cc like Annie Taric or who can protect you like Soraka (if she can use her silencing field properly to screw LB over) and Kayle. Janna may work, but I"m not sure her shield and ult is enough to save you from burst.

As for adc's, safe picks include Sivir ... and I'm not quite sure after that. I play Vayne, Jinx, MF, and Sivir, and only Sivir is really safe from LB due to the others' general immobility. A slow field won't save you from Leblanc :/

thePandev2 votes

I don't hate LB, I really want her to be fixed as a champion. But I can't stand the stupid 1 second kills with easy escapes.

I wouldn't even consider Sivir a safe pick against her. She is one of the if not the only ADC with no CC AND no escape. Even if one of LB's spells is blocked you will still get chased down.

I just think having to pick 1 or 2 champions to counter 1 is just toxic, and it's true because you even mention it yourself.

I don't hate any champion, even Teemo. I would prefer every champion just contain flawless kits, but that is a fantasy world.

Unfortunately,Leblanc is an AP Zed who is better at killing and arguably safer with her passive. I am one of those who doesn't believe she falls off late game though. People now realize that she plays an assassin role and not a mage, and as long as you kill the ADC, you have done your job.

And while you might argue, ''she can't farm like Zed'' she isn't supposed to. That is a part that should not exist in an assassin's kit. But even now pro players are starting to show that she can easily farm.

Yes, you can CC her, but CC in general is just an assassin's bane, as item 3075 is to ADCs.

I don't know what she needs, but she needs a fix in her kit, because as soon as she is picked in competitive gaming it will stream down into here like blue Ezreal did.

For Carthage2 votes

It may be because even her "counters" have a strong tendency to have a nightmarish time against her. You vary up your movements and timing and you throw out your Q/W whenever it just strikes your fancy. Not to mention have you seen her counter list? Most of them are hard pushers that can be ganked crazy easily, which LeBlanc can capitalize on effortlessly with the combined dash and range.

I've played on both sides of LeBlanc. I'm completely familiar with how she works. And I can tell you as a certainty that there is no more oppressive lane than hers, and that's including Riven. Even Zed can only do his shenanigans once every minute and a half.

Snake Town2 votes

If you think she doesn't have to worry about mana you clearly don't play her.

For Carthage1 votes

If you ever have to worry about mana, you're either using your abilities to clear waves or you're missing your combo. I've legitimately never had to worry about mana in lane, and the only time it becomes an issue is when you go to roam, which thank god for that because if it wasn't an issue then, she'd never stop ganking.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I already made a Thread about this once, which got kinda big, but the majority consenus said that it wouldn't really do much.

Epilogue of Life1 votes

I think they should never have made this champ to begin with lol, idk why Zed is considered OP when there's stupid ass Leblanc who can port 4 times without using flash....and she deals great dmg....and she has a slow that turns into a snare....and she has a mini shaco ult for passive....and she's ranged, so you can't deny her CS the way you deny Talon or Kass

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