Why Aatrox CAN be buffed and is a GOOD candidate for being buffed.

Abandon··6 votes·1,369 views

Honestly, I think this is the new thing to bandwagon. Either there's a much greater community for Aatrox than I expected or all the Aatrox mains are fed up and are finally starting to bash on the boards. Regardless, there's a bunch of other folk who have jumped on the "let's make an Aatrox post!" and others who are apart of the "no he's toxic! he drain tanks too hard!" response team.

WARNING: This is probably going to be a long post.

There's a lot of misinformation being spread across the boards recently. It's not season 3 anymore, he's not as good as he once was compared to other roster of top/junglers. He held a nice little niche back then but his sustain has been nerfed (50% -> 35% attack speed at lvl 1 is a pretty big nerf which destroyed his mediocre clear time and made him a moderately weaker duelist) and is now way overdue in terms of viability and effectiveness.

I don't get people saying he has a 'toxic kit'. The word 'toxic' is being thrown around so casually it's lost its meaning. What exactly is toxic? Aatrox's below 50% good sustain and over 50% weak sustain mechanic? I can understand if people meant snowbally but even in that instance he is a far lesser evil than many others in the top lane. I think people are forgetting that Irelia, Fiora and Riven exist. They all become obnoxious and can do far more than what Aatrox can. When you play Aatrox, you are auto-attack reliant. If you can't hit someone, you can't do jack sh!t. This has been the very same problem that all melee auto attackers have faced in the past. What does he get in exchange if he can hit someone? He gets a choice; either do more damage or heal a little bit. Fiora, Xin Zhao and Irelia don't have this dilemma, the heal is just a bonus for them and they are usually tacked on an already powerful ability.

Point being: He is not 'toxic', he is fairly balanced where he has to make a decision to either deal damage or heal, something new champions lack.

Maybe we have to scroll back all the way to the S3 threads about Aatrox and his "insane lifesteal" mechanic, back when it was actually strong and there were far fewer options to deal with him. The counter argument was simple. If he did not have some sort of sustain, his kit would not work. He uses % current hp as a substitute for mana. Whilst this may be considered "resource-less" by some, it actually is what keeps him in check. Any other champion that uses mana or fury will scale to a much stronger late game. They can buy 1 offensive item and then build defensive and get away with it and still be able to shrug off or heal the damage they receive later on in the game. Unlike those guys, Aatrox has pitiful hp recovery outside of his sustain mechanic (which i need to emphasise is ONLY strong below 50% hp, at late game it's his LIFESTEAL ITEMS that is healing him not the W) and if you want to build bruiser, you better have a lifesteal item or you effectively cannot function with those huge health costs. He just CANNOT be this 'draintank' concept that people are making out for him to be, he doesn't work like that and if you've ever seen or played an Aatrox you'd know that as well.

Point being: He is not this 'DRAIN TANK' concept people are making him out to be. He has high % health costs which keeps him regulated and fairly balanced in his state where he is allowed a decent sustain mechanic. His late game sustain comes from his items and not his W which in effect, is evidence that he cannot become this comical concept through his kit alone. Even with many lifesteal items, his core mechanic being auto-attacks keeps him from becoming a successful 'DRAIN TANK' since CC and his lack of defensive stats exists.

He doesn't HAVE to receive a buff per se, but honestly why can't he? He has not received any proper help or support for a long time. Even after his release when he was seeing 'some' games in higher elo and competition matches, he was never pick or ban. He was nerfed once heavily (unless you want to count his PBE nerf in which people were still saying he was fine, believe it or not) and after that just kind of left to rot. He has numerous bugs involving his auto-attacks which are his MAIN SOURCE OF DAMAGE and his other abilities including the Q and passive, which makes him extremely clunky in scenarios. Buffs don't necessarily mean MAKE HIM STRONG or MAKE HIM VIABLE, just ease his frustrations and smooth out his gameplay.

Point being: He has not received love or good support by the balance team in a long time. He has numerous bugs which affect his core gameplay and has been held back and punished by others who are receiving buffs while he sits on the shelf to rot.

This is season 6 now where damage (burst) and obnoxiousness reign supreme. Do people understand why Swain and Vladimir were disgusting? Because they were proper 'DRAIN TANKS' a concept which should cannot exist in a balanced state. Swain and Vladimir were not balanced, they were considered the O/Ps when they were strong (even to this day, they are still fairly strong). Aatrox, on the otherhand was a champion a lot of people considered either balanced or even slightly weak on release. It took a people a little while to see that he had good synergies with lifesteal + defensive items but he was never this 'DRAIN TANK' that people make him out to be. If people want to go back and watch past LCS games involving Aatrox, there were very few highlight reels of him 'DRAIN TANKING' or doing anything memorable. Now taking this already mediocre champion and fast forwarding 3 season to a very chaotic and bursty era we can see that Aatrox just cannot keep up. He lacks the stats needed to be a tank/bruiser (which in season 3 he was able to bypass by having high dps/sustain through higher attack speed), he lacks the support in bug fixing leaving him with buggy abilities, he lacks stickier abilities in an era where mobility creep has caught up to him, he lacks the versatility he once saw as there are just far better champions/picks now and he lacks the burst or kill potential needed to be disgusting and obnoxious as other champions are.

Point being: The meta in which he was good has long since died. He just cannot contend modern champions and in fact, has never been way too out of line. He is doing poorly in today's arena and can use some assistance. He is an already gimped champion who has not received proper compensation for being left aside.


Tl;dr - So, can we stop the bullsh!t? Aatrox is not in a good place. He CAN be buffed if they buff him appropriately (bug fixes, slightly shorter c/ds or slightly longer cc or slightly higher base stats) and is a GOOD candidate for buffs. Do you see all these threads RIOT? If it was just 1 or 2 like in the past I understand sweeping them under the rug but Aatrox is being noticed now. He IS being played. He is a symbol for what you COULD be doing to improve the game, the thing you guys set out do in balance patches. Nerf overly strong champions and bring others who have fallen out back in line.

Thanks to everyone who reads and responds to this post, I appreciate being noticed.

35 Comments

Fondling Gems9 votes

The issue with Aatrox and the danger of buffing him is that his state of balance is very small and even minor changes to the meta/item buffs can slingshot him one way or the other. Basically Aatrox can never exist in a balanced state for any length of time to long as the game is changing. The issue with this is that when Aatrox is strong there really isn't any way to play against him. He is the champ who will stand there lifestealing vs 4 champions and walk away with a quadra without having to use him abilities for anything but chasing. The way his kit works is pretty much impossible to balance around, especially on a game by game basis. I am sure he is on Riot's radar for possible champ updates because of this.

Note that I am not arguing for or against Aatrox buffs, I am simply giving reasons as to why Riot is probably hesitant to buff him. They also tend to leave champs like him alone until they have time to actually take a look at his kit and retune/rework it.

Abandon2 votes

This idea that he cannot be balanced has been thrown out many times. I want to know why people don't believe a melee auto-attacker with very few defensive stats, small cc and mediocre burst can't be balanced.

You're telling me, that small things like meta and item buffs can slingshot him one way or another? HOW. I've been playing him since season 3, I've gotten better with him throughout the many games I've piled on him as and I can tell you, that's a bunch of spewed nonsense that is neither fact nor logic. Let me explain to you why this does not make any sense. When ALL armour + hp items and bork were nerfed, this weakened Aatrox along with all other bruisers/tanks. Did this SLINGSHOT him all the way down from being mediocre? No, he just functioned at a slightly weaker state along with the rest of the other bruisers who build bork/defensive items. When tiamat was given it's cleave back and when phantom dancer gained +12% damage reduction (btw, a great item on him), did this SLINGSHOT him into becoming a dueling monster? No, it didn't.


The next thing you're telling me is that there "isn't any way to play against him", aka no counterplay. Let me explain something to you, in this meta BURST is crazy, champions who can build straight tank and still destroy (darius, illaoi) exists, champions who if you play unfavourably will snowball off you exists (riven, fiora, jax), champions who outscale you exists (any tank + nasus) and champions who are ranged or have high to lock you down exist (quinn, graves). So, seriously... how is it you can tell me with a straight face, that there is no counterplay against him. He is a Melee Bruiser for christ sakes, one that's not even very good at that (hence the reason we are having this discussion).

Let me present to you his kit in a basic manner. He has a guardian angel passive that relies on you spending hp to increase how much you gain after reviving, which in most cases in a duel you will still die. Along with that he has an increasing attack speed passive which complements the rest of his kit. Does this have counterplay? Yes, there are attack speed reducing items and his passive cannot save him in many situations where the opposition have high hp targets or have cc to lock him down after he revives.

He has a high c/d non-resetting dash that can be interrupted, uses 10% of his current hp, knocks up a small area for a very small amount of time, stuns him on the area he lands for a split moment and does practically no damage. Does this have counterplay? If you looked at the description and can tell me there's no counterplay then I can't really help you lol.

His W, the 'problem' ability you guys consider it. Is a healing ability that scales of bonus ad healing him for a good amount under 50% and miniscule amount over 50%. It can also be a damaging ability which DOES NOT proc on hits and deals damage to him based on his bonus ad. Now is there counterplay for this ability? Of course there is. Repeated harass from range, high burst or cc that keeps him away from attacking minions, knowledge that he can only use one move or the other and any attack speed reducing items keep this ability which DOES NOT heal for a strong amount above 50%, in check.

His E, a slow damaging slow (lol?) which has a weird hitbox but can hit multiple enemies on a moderate long c/d is a meh poke tool. It does good damage if you're ahead and build AD items but it's 60% bonus ad ratio really holds it back from being relevant past early-early midgame. Counterplay? It's slow, you can easily avoid it. If you stand right in front of it, it can miss. It's on a long c/d, it's not going to be doing much anyway.

His ult, an aoe nuke dealing magic damage, with an ap ratio coupled with an extra attack speed steroid and attack range increase is pretty meh aswell. It can help you cheese people at lvl 6 with the good ol' Q into Ult, Empowered W into E combo but does not really do much outside of that and taking towers slightly faster? Counterplay? It can't do much on its own. Double attack speed steroid buffs just make attack speed reducing items even more better. It's ap which I can understand to be hard to itemise against but it legit scales really poorly into the lategame, dealing very low damage later on. Kiters will still be able to kite you, cc will make you waste your attack speed steroid and it honestly doesn't do much either.


The next thing you talk about is that, and this is a keyword 'WHEN' he is strong WHEN he definitely is not right now, he can somehow 'draintank' 4 people and get a quadra. Now I know you're exaggerating but let's be real, in any one of my games this is not what happens. When I get fed so hard, I don't ever get to 'drain tank'. I have 5 items? I'm just going to kill you, LIKE ANY OTHER CHAMPION WHO'S FED. It's stat check, it's the nature of the game. If someone has snowballed and has a significant lead, THEY WILL KILL YOU FAST and that's that. There's none of this 'draink tank' bullsh!t. There's so many flaws with this argument I can't point them all out but honestly, you need to understand that this perfect scenario where Aatrox is fed and can tank 4 other champions by himself with sheer kit/item alone is nonsense. It doesn't happen and if it did, WHEN HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THIS HAPPEN? I play this champion and this is not how it usually goes. Either you kill them first REALLLYYYY quickly or they will nuke you down with the CC + Burst + DPS they have, unless they're all bots playing zac or taric or something. You have quite an imagination i'll give you that but, there's no way an Aatrox will be able to take on 4 people without 'having to use his abilities besides his q to chase'.

Now, I know you have good intentions. You don't want another abomination or random champion to be buffed into some disgusting piece of trash and i hear you. We've had enough of those. But... don't you see Aatrox is not ANYTHING near what you've described... the champions that may well become disgusting and overbuffed are the champions RIOT are looking at right now. Do you see those PBE updates... can you seriously say that Aatrox can't be meddled with ESPECIALLY with the very light buffs i had in mind but champions who pack HIGH DAMAGE, HIGH CC and HIGH FRUSTRATIONS TO LANE AGAINST (Brand, Riven, Jayce) are allowed to be buffed?

SORRY if I came of as condescending but seriously, I've seen so many posts like yours who state over the top images of Aatrox without any proper grounding in reality or experience with the champion and it's just gotten to the point where it'd be nice if it were straighten out.

Aptest1 votes

Dear justicar,

Instead or re-writing my past arguments I wish to ask you two questions:

  1. What is it you like most with respect to Aatrox? Why do you pick him, and what in his kit do you consider to be "his identity"?
  2. Do you consider Aatrox to merit a kit overhaul, or do you believe he should receive a numbers buff on his stats or kit? why is this your opinion?
pee jugs1 votes

{quoted}

Dear justicar,

Instead or re-writing my past arguments I wish to ask you two questions:

  1. What is it you like most with respect to Aatrox? Why do you pick him, and what in his kit do you consider to be "his identity"?
  2. Do you consider Aatrox to merit a kit overhaul, or do you believe he should receive a numbers buff on his stats or kit? why is this your opinion?

he has no identity which is his identity

Aatrox needs an overhaul. his mechanics should remain unchanged but something to give him an identity or play out his "fantasy" other than simply a lifesteal attackspeed fighter

Aptest1 votes

EDIT: thanks

Abandon1 votes

Hello friend,

  1. I'm the type of player who enjoys melee combat, I started this game with Garen moved onto Trynd and when Aatrox was released moved onto Aatrox. I pick him because I enjoy him, there are some minor grievances with how wonky his kit is but I like him regardless. His core identity kit-wise has to be his sustain. When he was presented to the rift, he was presented as a bloodthirsty, war mongering demon. Honestly, he can do without a lot of the moves he currently has but his sustain has to stay (does not necessarily have to be in the same as it is currently).
  2. Yes, I do believe he should received a kit overhaul but this what people are just not getting. HE IS GOING TO GET AN OVERHAUL, I can't change that and I believe it should happen BUT this will take time almost a year away. If people were actually to look at my post and just read the last bit, I'm not calling for unpurposed, problematic buffs. What i'm calling for is QOL changes, small things that will give him a small push back. Most of them won't make him any different than he is currently.

This post was never a question of rework or buff, i'm simply fed up with the bullsh!t people are slinging across the board. Aatrox is going to be broken after they slightly touch? No, no he is not. Can Aatrox get a few light changes before his rework? I honestly don't see why not but alas, the boards are not on my side this time.

Aptest1 votes

Aatrox is still remembered as one of those horrible "stat check" champions that just steamroll some opponents regardless of their opponent's actions.

I believe that Aatrox's kit dictates he is either trash or ban material. There is a point where if he is stronger than it than he is ban material and if weaker he is trash.

If you buff trash it does not mean he becomes ban material. He can stay trash. I think he's trash enough at the moment that a small buff making him still trash but less stinky trash is reasonable.

Is a Q CD buff really going to help? What I do not want to see is Aatrox becoming more sticky. I think the best buff would be to reduce the health costs on his abilities.

53436278DEL11 votes

so why don't you test it on the PBE ??? instead of being hesitant ..after all hesitation is death - aatrox

Abandon2 votes

I forgot to address this as well, thanks for pointing it out! THERE EXISTS A PUBLIC TEST ENVIRONMENT! We can actually test if he is going to become as broken as people say or not.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Justicar Aatrox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6otsHbvb,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-08-12T16:16:50.649+0000)

I forgot to address this as well, thanks for pointing it out! THERE EXISTS A PUBLIC TEST ENVIRONMENT! We can actually test if he is going to become as broken as people say or not.

That's not what the PBE is for.

Abandon1 votes

"Why do we have the PBE? Riot's mission is to be the most player-focused game company we can be, and part of that is making sure that we're taking cues from you. Your feedback is what fuels us as we strive to make the League experience better. When it comes to rooting out problems, testing ideas, and building the game, the more feedback from you we can get earlier in the process, the better off we're gonna be."

I think it's fair to say this can fall under "testing new ideas", there was a post where someone mentioned about reducing Orianna's R mana cost* to 100 at all ranks and that made it onto the pbe after a rioter saw and "took cues" from the poster.

If we really are not allowed to experiment with buffs/nerfs (which we have done so in the past) then I think the PBE is just not being used to it's fullest potential.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Not butting in on this new conversation but misinformation bugs me. That was making it 100 mana cost at all ranks, not cd. (OCD strikes again.)

Abandon1 votes

Oops this here was my mistake, you are correct.

Mirkhail4 votes

The pbe is mostly for bugs and early feedbacks, the population of the pbe is too small and diverse for a good enough analysis.

Keti6 votes

His free hyper sustain makes him either shit, or a god. There is no in between. It's even worse when get gets any sort of lead in a match, because at that point its pretty much over for you. The champion straight up ruins the game when he's good, and ruins any games he does well in. It would be cool if they turned him into a diving fighter support, we have enough cancerous faceroll diving champs in top.

Abandon1 votes

I understand your concern but I already addressed this 'hyper sustain' thing. It just does not happen unless you have built lifesteal, are allowed to auto-attack and have incredibly high AD and at that point it's more of a problem that you're fed than anything else. Lifesteal on anyone is obviously going to make someone become this 'drain tank' thing. I don't see how any fed champ does not "ruin the game they do well in".

PLEASE don't turn him into a diving fighter support, he was made as a light fighter/bruiser and his entire kit screams to fight... there is no thematic tie or relationship to him being a support Q_Q.

He is neither cancerous or faceroll lol, I mean if you wanna know... your man shen is doing REALLY good right now don't you think? Tanky af, damage immunity, easy to land cc, an extra tp, actually quite decent damage when he builds titanic... i don't really see his downside? He can outduel Aatrox (which you say is this hyper sustain thing) early and build 1 tank item and make Aatrox's damage rubbish.

If he was so faceroll, how'd you managed to go 0.5/10.5/5 on average with him?

Fondling Gems1 votes

I am going to reply to this instead of your response to my original comment because Keti put it much better than I did. The issue with buffing Aatrox (Once again neither for or against it, I am staying neutral) is that due to his innate sustain in combat he is very tricky to balance. In a given game he is either healing negligible amounts because of the enemy team comp or he is outhealing the damage of multiple enemies.

I understand your arguments and I personally don't think that minor qol buffs would be bad, but Aatrox and Vlad, the most similar champ to him in terms of how he sustains in combat, have proven time and time again how even being slightly strong rockets them out of control. Pretty much every champ with in lane sustain has been addressed except Aatrox and it really shows.

Once again I want to make it extremely clear that I am not arguing for or against Aatrox buffs, I am explaining why Riot is probably just ignoring Aatrox until they can get to reworking him.

Abandon1 votes

I get it too, his sustain is tricky to balance. I get it, honestly I do.

It's just that my proposed buffs have nothing to do with his sustain, absolutely nothing. I'm not calling to revert his attack speed, i'm not calling for higher base damages, higher sustain scalings or anything of the sort. JUST some general things that COULD, they well might miss their mark, but still hold the possibility of making him a lot smoother to play. That's all.

I get this is why he has been ignored for a long time but I still feel, putting some time aside aside for champions like Aatrox who are down in the gutter can do some real good in holding confidence in the company.

At the end of the day, these were just my 2 cents nothing needs to be done but it'd be nice if something did :c

Fondling Gems1 votes

Yeah I definitely get that feeling. I mained Taric back when his Q used to go up to a 140 mana cost heal. It made me have to foolow Taric's advice. "With summoner 13 "

Yeah but it can hurt to watch champs you love be ignored.

Abandon1 votes

Yeah... it sucks :c

With 125+ other champions, some needing more attention than others I get that Aatrox can be left behind. I made this thread in order to be noticed because if the Aatrox players don't voice their opinions on his state of being, then nothing will ever be done and we can only hope that in the upcoming year his rework will be done justice.

I hope I didn't come across as being too arrogant or conceited, I was just a little upset with the exaggerations that are quite common with Aatrox. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion, I think I'll take my leave with this last post :)

Keti1 votes

My averages are awful on him because I've picked him twice in troll games that didn't get dodged. I haven't played aatrox seriously since s3, when you took fort pot and killed anyone level 2.

I don't see what the shen vs aatrox matchup has to do with Attrox's health. Strength and health are completely different things. Aatrox is either Über or poo. Currently he's mostly poo. Shen is not my man though, Warwick top was my man, and they made him poo. Then rengar top was my man, and they made him poo. Then renekton was my man, he's currently poo. Then shyvana top was my girl, and they also made her poo. Finally kindred top were my dudes, and they turned them to an especially smelly poo. Shen is just the remainder, who I play when I get top instead of jg. Because I got so fed up I switched to maining jg. Shen was sometimes poo. But even when shen is poo he is it not so poo because of stand united. When poo stands as one even poo becomes strong.

Attrox's entire lore screams support though tbh. He shows up to a fight and inspires all the soldiers on the side he chooses and goes ham. Seems like he'd be a Leona with less cc and more damage with an ult that gives an offensive aura.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Many champions terrorize the Rift for years, but Aatrox is not allowed to be strong for patch or two...

Abandon1 votes

And the sad part is I'm not asking for him to be even 'strong'. Can't he just be in that state of rammus, the 'OK' state? No? Ok...

53436278DEL11 votes

nasus is also his biggest early game counter .. soooooo and nasus is late game

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

Give him bug fixes and base stat boosts, maybe some better scalings (AD, why the hell does he have AP scaling when AP Aatrox is completely unviable????), and he should be good.

I liked him a LOT when I got to play him just because his visuals and audio are so damn good, and his gameplay's pretty fun.

Abandon1 votes

Exactly (though not sure on ad scalings, anything outside of light touches aims more towards rework). But I guess even bug fixes are now a no-no on him.

53436278DEL11 votes

A simple fix for aatrox would be : changing his scalings from bonus to all ad which means he can be tanky and still deal effective damage without building to much damages items.even give him a shield for how many enemies he hits his q with

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Basically aatrox is an example of how older champions got screwed over by; mobility creep, damage creep, & outclassed newer champion design.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

While I'm against the idea of raw stats buffs, I do think he could stand some usability improvements. The biggest thing I want is for his Q knockup radius to be made bigger. It is insanely unreliable for such an important ability and there's really no reason why the hitbox to be so small when the price for missing it is almost always death.

Another option suggested by Hashinshin is to add some bonus armor pen on his W so he isn't shut down as hard by armor stacking. I think 50% bonus armor pen on the W proc whether you use the healing or damaging mode would do wonders for him against champs that just rush tons of armor.

pee jugs1 votes

Aatrox is fine. I maintain a 60% wr with him in high diamond. Get good.

Abandon1 votes

Man, I'll try. I stopped at G5 and maintain 4.0 kda and 60% winrate. I know you don't want him to be buffed -> nerfed and I get that but seriously, if people like riven and jayce are being looked at. Why can't Aatrox and why can't it be ever so slightly light buffs? 1 second off his Q is too much? He doesn't build much CDR so it'd help him a bit. Bug fixes too much? You know he has many bugs right?

Aatrox is not at the point in which he is unplayable but even still, having a few light touches will make waiting for the rework so much easier.

pee jugs1 votes

because hes fine Aatrox. Great split push good duelist.

pee jugs1 votes

When I lose I don't think how my champ could get better but how can I be better.

redfeenix1 votes

I think just straight numbers buff is probably no good for him. They should slightly rework the other skills / passive to make them a little bit better.

Currently his playstyle is pretty boring, if they add more to his skillset they might be onto something. Lets go bug morello to buff aatrox eh?

Abandon1 votes

I understand a lot of your concerns with numbers but numbers and small fixes are the only things that I see are viable 'buffs' without doing a full rework on him lol. Yes he has a snowbally kit that does not work today needing a rework but to keep him somewhat alive, I'm asking for light touch ups on areas he could use to smooth him out that's all.

Feels like I have to say repeat the same things I say a lot :(, there was less resistance when satan himself (teemo) was given bouncing shrooms.

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