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How to preserve Vayne's identities and remove her Q crit burst

5000000000000000··28 votes·2,163 views

Make her Q a defensive steroid instead of offensive.

Remove the damage amplification on next AA, and instead give her a brief %damage reduction effect on Tumble. This removes her burst, and preserves several of her core identities.

It would work something like Q: Tumble 30 mana 6/5/4/3/2 seconds ACTIVE: Vayne quickly rolls toward the cursor's location, causing her to take 30/35/40/45/50% reduced damage for the duration of tumble. Tumble resets Vayne's autoattack timer. (numbers up to adjustments)

  1. Tank killer: most of her damage now comes from Silver Bolts, which means she is much more effective at focusing tanks than squishies. The defensive steroid also gives her survivability in teamfights.
  2. Duelist: brief damage reduction means that Vayne will be able to negate a lot of damage that comes in predictably, such as a 1v1 situation. For example, Vayne will be able to tumble Ekko's Phase Dive or ultimate (both of which are predictable) to negate most of his damage and come out ahead, but at the same time not simply by bursting Ekko down.
  3. Bad waveclear: Nothing much to say here.

She's mostly the same Vayne, but now do what she's supposed to better, and do what she's not supposed to worse. Silver Bolts damage may need to be buffed, and her ultimate may need slight adjustments to increase her damage output otherwise, but I think this is a good direction to take her.

52 Comments

KindredAndWolf13 votes

This would make her an incredible and bonkers op bruiser with a frozen mallet/wits end

Fisher No Chains8 votes

This... After melee assassins going tank, I don't want to imagine RANGED assassins going tank (yes, currently she's a better assassin than intended assassins).

God, a tanky marksman with stealth... I can't really think of a worse abomination.

2 Weezy Baby10 votes

A very bad idea.

Kosm1K6 votes

What if we removed the tumble's ability to crit? Make it like Draven axes where its just bonus damage that doesn't interact with crit? change the ratios a bit so it doesn't hurt her too bad, but will also not one shot people late game.

doiminat0r36001 votes

If we remove her ability to crit on her Q, she is more likely to build tank items that also have AD (item 3078 item 3071 item 3046 item 3022 item 3053 etc). This is the same problem Yasuo has and why his double crit is essential. Either have them be a glass cannon, or have them be an unkillable tank bruiser that can easily 1v1 anyone.

Baron of Bread

Tumble's enhanced damage became able to crit recently, she wasn't built like a bruiser before.

doiminat0r36001 votes

I know. But with the enhansements on her Q damage ratio that came in the same patch, it's likely that she is better off being glass cannon.

Sightless663 votes

This is a misconception. The tumble bonus damage could always crit. The bugfix that people think gave her q the ability to crit actually made the bonus damage and base autoattack damage roll for crit at the same time instead of independently.

Baron of Bread1 votes

Huh. Thanks for the tip off.

Sightless662 votes

Technically, I didn't even tell you the full story. The full truth of the matter is that the crit bugfix actually had a lot more going on, and was a nerf to Vayne. It caused her winrate to drop by 3% in the patch it was applied, despite being paired with a buff allowing her Q to hurt turrets.

I'll link a reddit thread explaining the issue in more detail, but the basic story is that there was a bug that caused rolls for bonus damage only crits to deal base and bonus crit damage, although rolling both crits would result in a base damage only crit. This led to a significant increase in Vayne's damage when she had below 67% crit chance, and a small decrease in damage when she was above that. Overall, it was quite good for her.

DHBGrimReaper5 votes

Please don't vayne will become preseason 6 graves but with attackspeed instead of burst.

TeCoolMage3 votes

damage reduction is a big nono as it serves as a tank steroid by stacking less-diminishingly with resistances and HP. Her Q should either heal a flat amount of HP, give a shield, or give a flat amount of MR and Armour

Think of it this way: at 100 MR and Armour you take 50% damage, if you have 100 resistances and 50% damage reduction you take 25% damage. If you have 100 resistances and gain another 100, you take 33% damage

50000000000000002 votes

That's a good point. A shield or armor/MR is probably better.

Kledy McKledFace2 votes

Not a bad idea

King of Demons2 votes

Or also: How to make a champion worthless

50000000000000004 votes

Could you elaborate on this? Not sure how this would make her worthless.

Legacy Hydralpha2 votes

An ADC with a defensive steroid, if anything, could be powerful. Though, having a buff against taking damage on an ability for avoiding damage may not be the best idea. The few things that are likely to hit you are on-target spells, autos, and maybe AOE spells.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Might I turn your attention to Khazix in Season 4?

Legacy Hydralpha1 votes

I've heard of it, haven't been playing long enough to see it that much of it though.

Best princess EU2 votes

Nop, replace bonus damage with bonus attack speed for 2 attacks

ZephyrDrake2 votes

Vayne is supposed to be just as effective against both tanks and squishies. The last thing vayne wants is damage reduction and i can already that becoming either really annoying due to how often she is able to tumble or completely useless due to how short the damage reduction is. She is meant to be a late game hyper carry not some weird thing that has no idea what it's supposed to be. She doesn't want to tank damage in teamfights, she wants to get in and absolutely destroy everyone as fast as possible

Bonipherus2 votes

Remember when they added the % damage reduction to Khazix ult? That worked out well having a high damage assassin with an on-demand Alistar ult which was also able to be activated multiple times. Lets give it to Vayne on a normal ability with a low cooldown.

Automated Riven1 votes

The amount she would have to be buffed if this change were to go through it pretty funny to think about. she already is the worst adc in lane and also has the worst waveclear out of all the adc's and what she gives up for that she makes up with a gimicky ability to maybe burst a squishy if they dont position well. She is a late game hyper carry (that is her identity not the true damage bot everyone thinks it is) the easiest way to change that is have her bonus damage on tumble scale with level and maybe remove its ability to crit.

50000000000000002 votes

I mean, late game hypercarry isn't her only identity. There are distinguishing features that make Vayne stand out from other hypercarries. %HP true damage is one of them, and being able to avoid damage despite her short range is also one.

Also, isn't survivability a core characteristic of hypercarries anyway? Ryze, Cassiopeia, Tristana, etc.

Automated Riven2 votes

yes she uses her mobility and %MAXHP true damage to be a hyper carry. but if you take away her only really sorce of damage scaling she will be really bad. even if the damage reduction is 100% she will be bad. She will just do far less damage then literally any other adc with the same items. and will rely only on being able to get her true damage off like 20 10 to 15 times during a teamfight. her true damage would spike from being about 20% of her damage to being 50% and her winrate would drop to about 35 to 40.

She would litterally be the worst adc at every stage of the game.

50000000000000002 votes

She still gets damage from her ultimate, right? With this change she'd probably build on-hit instead of crit, so her late game autos will still hit hard. And the bonus AD from ultimate will synergize better with high attack speed, no?

Automated Riven2 votes

not if you want a viable adc with late game damage. the only reason kog got away with building on hit is that he did double the amount of normal auto attacks. Also on hit builds need hurricane to be effective, which is an item that should never work with vaynes kit due to both her silver bolts and her character. she should be attackspeed and crit based not attackspeed and on hit. unless her silver bolts gets a huge buff to compensate the drastic loss in dps she would suffer by getting forced into an onhit build.

50000000000000002 votes

What if she got an attack speed (and MS, maybe?) buff whenever she procs Silver Bolts, similar to Vi W? Would that give enough damage to compensate for the loss of it in Q?

Automated Riven1 votes

it may.

kile1471 votes

I could see her Q causing her next two attacks to have +50% attack speed and silver bolt procs giving a MS boost. It would make her play around her silver bolts more, but wouldn't give her as much insane burst.

LordGeovanni1 votes

more ms on vayne please just do it i dont even want to play this game anymore

kile1472 votes

Melees are faced with a choice, never reach her because she kills you or never reach her because she outruns you... neither is pretty.

LordGeovanni1 votes

only source of damage scaling (builds 6 build damage build).

Automated Riven1 votes

Right. and the reason its working is because she can burst squishys late in the game and also shred tanks. thats what makes her a late game hyper carry. If all of her damage scaling besides silver bolts was removed she would do less damage then every other adc while having the worst laning phase,midgame,lategame of all of them. The only reason you would pick her is if the other team only stacked tanks who have no shields in their kits (cause shields are really good against vayne as they are artificial health and help against the true damage) while also not having anyone able to get rid of her. But even in that situation a kog or jinx or trist would still do the same job but arguably better in the late game. there is just a small chance vayne could do it better in the midgame after 2 attackspeed items and maxed w.

edit (also vayne has always 2-3 shot squishys. this isnt anything new its just that its all frontloaded now and you see it much more clearly.) the onshot is pretty new tho. I cant say I have ever seen that before.

The Deckowner1 votes

so basically old katarina E

50000000000000001 votes

I guess so, but with scaling damage reduction and lower cooldown.

Automated Riven1 votes

6/5/4/3/2 is her current q cooldown.

50000000000000001 votes

I meant compared to old Shunpo.

Danjeng1 votes

Imagine a tank/AS Vayne. She would be able to output high and reliable damage (because of silver bolts and flat AD boost on ultimate), while being fairly durable. Frozen Mallet, Phantom Dancer, BotRK, Wit's End, GA... Lord have mercy.

LordGeovanni1 votes

you cant be scaleing down the cd and up the damage reduction

50000000000000001 votes

I just based it off the current numbers. You're right in that the numbers are probably pretty bad right now. What do you think will be appropriate, in your opinion?

LordGeovanni1 votes

30% at all ranks while scaleing down cooldown. i dont like it because i dont believe in ranged characters whos weakness is supposed to be that they are squishy useing damage reduction at all. thats a tank stat not a squishy one. but i think its more fair than what is currently out

SooFr0sty1 votes

Have the reduction scale with bonus ad

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Not a bad thought.

Think it would be enough if her Q was changed to more of a sustained damage effect, though. Maybe 10-20% bonus for the next three attacks instead of 30-50 on a single one?

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Concept is good, really terrible execution.

6Sfool1 votes

I'm fine with that. It would make attack speed really her only build, and she'd have to lose a lot of damage to tumble come lategame.

Sraeg20131 votes

The thing is Vayne's Q has been unable to crit, until like a month before they "fixed" it by making it consistent.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

If you were to give her a defensive steroid on Q (which is already a niche filled by Graves), we would see a different build crop up. 40% CDR Vayne with a 1.4s cd on Tumble that gives % damage reduction would be insane. She'd build BORK / BT, and then she would be broken. Giving her a flat shield / heal on that same cooldown is outrageous as well. Scaling back the CD would also make her lose her identity as a mobile, outplay assassin.

It's best to just leave it as it is, or give it more synergy within her kit. You could scale back the numbers very slightly, and let it knock seconds off of E cooldown. I think that would be very interesting to see.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Because giving marksmen damage reduction is such a great idea, when they already are the best draintanks in the game. Flat bonus resistances make more sense.

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