Tiny Shen Buff to make him a META pick.

King Odin·Feb 11, 2015·110 votes·6,052 views

Old: SHIELD: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 60% AP)

New: SHIELD: 40 / 60/ 80 / 110/ 140 (+ 15% of Extra HP) Edit: Changing it to extra health from total HP and increasing % from 10 to 15

Shen is a tank so naturally I think his shield should scale with health like SIons does. Sions shield currently scales 30 / 55 / 80 / 105 / 130 (+ 40% AP) (+ 10% of maximum health) and is naturally tanky since he can stack his health through csing and kills. Please consider this little thing Riot thanks.

Edit: The point of this thread is just to say that his AP ratios should be health related instead. I don't know how to balance it so I threw some values at it even though they may be to high. And of course CD would have to be altered to make this make sense etc. So don't expect the values to be accurate.

113 Comments

EyrgosFeb 11, 201527 votes

King OdinFeb 11, 201517 votes

Shen Thank you summoner.

GetToTheLanternFeb 12, 20153 votes

I am personally a Shen main and I'd love to see this shen buff he's not an overall op champ like Lee sin etc so it wouldn't throw off the "balance" and yes I know my what my name is I've heard all the jokes before >.>

JevelFaithfulFeb 12, 20151 votes

I haven't really checked the numbers (and you even say they aren't really meant to be balanced). But I agree with the idea. It could be a relatively easy semi-systematic class-wide fix.

FunkyyCatFeb 13, 20151 votes

#Bump

Kratos263Feb 11, 20159 votes

Did you at least think about that before posting? He'd have at least a 600 health shield on a 5 second cooldown at lvl 18 what the hell.

King OdinFeb 11, 201515 votes

Sion can potentially have even more health and it deals damage to enemies. I don't see the issue.

They would have to increase the CD on Shen too compensate for the buff is all

destiny fanFeb 11, 20158 votes

sion is a mana based champion, on shen, this shield buff would make him horrible to lane against, and give him a nautilus grade lategame shield.

not to mention his incredible utility as a tank and the massive amout of sustain he has.

not to completely contradict you for the sake of doing so, but i find my points valid, the hardest part of balancing shen its his incredible laning value, specialy past 6

King OdinFeb 12, 20156 votes

Very good points. I personally agree with what you are saying but Shens late game can be quite weak compared to others since he has such small and short ranged AOE cc aswell as the fact that he isn't very tanky at all without items. So I was trying to improve his late game whilst making his early game a little weaker. So what I should do is lower his shields base values.

RikariFeb 12, 20152 votes

**Sion uses mana **and has a hard kit to use,countered by a single ounce of mobility Shen uses the toxic "cost in meed of a nerf" energy and can shield an ally,boost their lifesteal and can taunt multiple enemies.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 12, 20158 votes

Shen is consistently out of energy. Energy doesn't need nerfs. Zed does.

WhiteFireOCNFeb 12, 20152 votes

If you're constantly out of energy with Shen, you're doing it wrong. Jus' saying.

Auz the RipperFeb 12, 20157 votes

Or the enemy is mildly decent at dodging

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 12, 20154 votes

Q costs 60 energy

W costs 50

E costs 100

Shen's max energy is 200.

You do the math yet? Yeah, that's 210. How much did I just say Shen has? Oh yeah, 200. His kit literally costs more energy than he has IN ONE ROTATION. Granted his passive restores 10/20/30 and his E restores 40 on hit, allowing you to cast Q OR W a whopping ONE MORE TIME.

OrangesilkFeb 13, 20152 votes

I know this completely irrelevant, but I read that "ONE MORE TIME" in a Daft Punk voice.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 13, 20151 votes

completely relevant*

WhiteFireOCNFeb 13, 20151 votes

As a Shen main, I RARELY find myself out of energy unless I happen to massively screw up a combo.

It's what separates Shen from other energy champions, the fact that you actually have to care about what you're doing with your abilities before you do it.

However, if you combo correctly instead of grinding your face across the keyboard, you won't find yourself out of energy.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 13, 20151 votes

As a person who can read, I find that literally not possible. Numbers don't lie.

RikariFeb 12, 20152 votes

LeeSin Sustain,mobility,low cooldowns,aw hell you know what Lee has Zed Ranged poke for days.If you try to trade you WILL be oom. Akali An AP assassin with spellvamp. Also Stealth. Kennen Endless,Endless CC,with an insane movespeed boost. And range.

If Shen was able to spam like the rest of them,he would make an epic support. Not to mention all of them have energy regen abilities on top of its 10 per second regen rate. Some mages have meagre mana regen abilities aside from a dorans ring.

Annie Karthus Kassadin Malzahar can't often poke you without going oom. Swain basically has a super dorans ring. TwistedFate Xerath restore mana with a special AA. when they do that,its your best time to engage.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 12, 20152 votes

I don't know why all the energy champions don't have to actually manage their energy like Shen does. Zed is basically resource-less, it takes some skill to manage to run out of energy on him. Lee, Akali and Kennen all basically have infinite energy as well. Granted with the changes they embraced the resource-less spam of Akali and Kennen and simply reduced their damage to compensate. As for Lee and Zed they still do what mana users do, only better, and with no resources. What is this?

Ariel the CruelFeb 12, 201520 votes

And then you realize Shen is the only energy user who ever actually runs out. Hell. He can't even use a full rotation if he misses that 1 CC. Which, by the way, is thinner than a Nidalee spear.

He also doesn't boost life steal. He heals for a flat amount when ever the targeted enemy is attacked.

RikariFeb 13, 20151 votes

If Sion misses his E the rest of his kit is useless unless he ults. Also Sion doesn't regen all his resources in 21 seconds just saying... Shen needs a buff,but energy is still and probably will always be better than mana.

Ariel the CruelFeb 13, 20152 votes

Irony: It wasn't originally supposed to be. Energy was supposed to be the early game resource, while mana was better mid/late game after you built into it some.

Shen and early game Kennen show this philosophy. Now days, Shen is the only energy user that ever actually runs out. It's sad, really.

Personally, I think Riot should just shift the game to energy. Be easier to balance if champs have a secondary resource they can't buy into.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 12, 20151 votes

Exactly. And they should. Right now Feint has virtually no cooldown but at the same time does near nothing for Shen for how much it costs. I'm all in favor of a stronger shield on a longer cooldown (hopefully without a cost increase).

doubleguacFeb 13, 20151 votes

Sion's shield has 50% less health scaling than this proposal, as well as a lower base value. Yes, Sion can stack health, but his W passive probably isn't going to make up for 50% lower scaling.

Sion's shield also almost triple the cooldown at max level (13 seconds vs. 5 seconds). If his shield cooldown were increased, your proposed numbers start to sound a little more reasonable.

Still, another really noteworthy difference is that spamming Sion's shield in lane/jungle is extremely mana intensive. Sion's shield costs a huge chunk of mana even at rank 1. Using it repeatedly in trades will quickly oom him. Since shen is energy based, he can spam his shield to his heart's content in lane.

The difference in laning is really important to mention here. I think one of the main reasons Riot has been hesitant to buff Shen is because he is a massive lane bully against other melees. His laning power comes from a lot of factors that lack dynamic counterplay. He bullies other melees in lane because he has amazing base stats, he's energy based, he has innate sustain, he has spammable point and click poke, and he has a spammable shield. These factors allow him to beat most other melees through sheer attrition. Aside from dodging his taunt, you can't really "outplay" shen in lane. He's just a brick wall who constantly whittles you down while shielding and sustaining through your damage.

I'm not saying Shen is OP in the slightest. I agree he could use a small buff. But, best case scenario, that buff would improve his late game team fight presence without buffing his already frustrating laning phase.

So, maybe increase the cooldown on his shield, and give it 7% health scaling? Or make the health scaling increase with rank, from 5-10%. This would buff his late game team fighting without touching his early laning phase as much--he's already plenty strong in that phase of the game.

SirsirFeb 12, 20153 votes

It would probably be like 5% of max health

Report Team GGFeb 12, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Did you at least think about that before posting? He'd have at least a 600 health shield on a 5 second cooldown at lvl 18 what the hell.

Did you at least think about that before posting? Values can be adjusted at Riots discretion. The concept is the point of the post

XimleeFeb 12, 20152 votes

Maybe you could try to bring attention to the flaws in a more constructive format?

TwilitFeb 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Did you at least think about that before posting? He'd have at least a 600 health shield on a 5 second cooldown at lvl 18 what the hell.

You realize how easy this is to fix? It's pretty easy. Cooldown now - 5 seconds. Cooldown to make this balanced if it ever even gets added - 11 seconds. Bam. Balanced and Shen now has a chance at being a meta pick

aaronconlinFeb 13, 20151 votes

I consistently get a 700-800 HP shield on Nautilus , who tends to do more damage and has more cc than Shen . What's the problem? Shen is a tank.

StealWolverineFeb 12, 20157 votes

make it based off of bonus hp. bump it up to 15% or something.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 12, 20155 votes

I'm fine with his current shield. What I'm not fine with is it's scaling energy cost. The cooldown gets reduced with each rank on top of the CDR you build but the energy cost stays at a flat 50, meaning using it later in the game is more costly as you are paying the same amount for a substantially smaller (in comparison to your health) shield on a lower cooldown.

DeusVultFeb 12, 20155 votes

IMO, all tank shields should scale with Health, AP champ shields should scale with AP

And there should be no AD scaling shields. Ever

Robert SmithFeb 12, 201513 votes

I'm looking at you Riven

Tin TarantinoFeb 12, 20151 votes

AP and health scaling shields are actually more effective, AD items are expensive, provide little defense stats themselves and as a result the shield doesn't help you much when you are behind. If you give Riven an AP/Health scaling shield then she still hits your carries for some decent damage but she gets less squishy. The AD scaling shield actually helps keep her from coming back as easily if she gets behind.

ArveanorFeb 12, 20151 votes

"Giving Riven a weaker shield would make her less squishy"

LeondeFeb 13, 20151 votes

I think you missed the point.

If a shield scales off of Bonus HP, then that means it would scale off of, for example, a Randuin's Omen. You now have 70 Bonus Armour that makes all of your HP worth more.

However, giving Riven a weaker shield would not encourage people to build a Randuin's instead of a Bloodthirster. They'd still get a Bloodthirster or whatever other item anyway.

The initial logic and your sarcastic logic are both a bit off.

Jolly RogeredFeb 12, 20155 votes

Even if this isn't the right kind of buff Shen needs (opinion wise). I appreciate this topic because Shen feels neglected. I have never seen a Riot member reply to any Shen thread no matter how productive the thread was.

MidFeb 12, 20152 votes

Yup, this would make Shen so much more viable.

FreljordanFeb 12, 20152 votes

instead make it 60/80/100/120/140 (+10% BONUS HP) so that way its not a 540 shield that's on a relatively short cd. bc that's a lot when you consider armor and mr

junglerboy16Feb 12, 20152 votes

Shen's shield is far more spammable, and he is already a health stacker, so it would probably be better if it were more like 40/55/70/95/120 (+8% max health).

This change is never going to happen though unless the rest of his kit gets an overhaul, because according to Riot, they never want his shield to actually be strong in any way because it makes his low interaction passive damage boost happen too frequently and that makes him a really toxic laner. They don't want him to be a meta pick in his current state because he is not a healthy champion for the game right now.

Ale non è maleFeb 12, 20152 votes

The tiny Shen buff that would make him a good but not overpowered pick again would be to give him Ki Strike cooldown reduction on Vorpal Blade use too (right now it is only on basic attacks) Shen role is to get in, absorb as much damage and CC as he can thanks to his tankiness and feint Shield, and allow his mates to do the damage and kill enemies. Actually, once he gets in, even with a successful Shadow Dash, he can't sustain himself and live long enough to do his job. Given the strtegnth of the anti-health items and abilities at the moment(especially BoTRK), he would need to be able to both shield himself with W and regain health with Q effectively. The problem is that, his energy costs limit him and don't allow him to do both things at the same time.

Example: He hit only 1 enemy with Shadow Dash, he is left with 140 energy(100-40 energy used). He uses Feint(50 energy) to shield himself and Vorpal Blade(60 energy) to sustain himself. NOW he is left with only 30 energy left. Standard energy regen is set at 10 energy/second. Once Vorpal Blade and Feint goes off CD, Shen has regenerated likely 30 energy (kicking in some CDR here and there from SV and maybe other CDR items). Now Shen is forced to use only 1 between Feint(shield) and Vorpal Blade(sustain) and then he is unable to use any other ability because he is at 0 energy. In the 3-4 seconds where all of this happens, while eating various amount of CC, how much AAs do you think Shen is capable to do to trigger Ki Strike CDR? Even if Shen has Ki Strike up once he starts to trade to restore immediately energy (wihich is 30 energy regain), he can't likely process Ki Strike again during the fight, so he is left without no possibility to do anything for some seconds while he regen energy. And in these seconds he is so vulnerable, especially because his health tankbuild is rendered useless with enemies with BoTRK or other anti-health items/abilities. If he could use Vorpal Blade too to reduce Ki Strike CD, he could have more chances to trigger it, regain energy, and being able to perform an extra spell that could be the difference between him living long enough to be able to do his job, and being useless as a pure tank that is shredded too fast by the enemy as he is now

Xela SyabFeb 12, 20152 votes

Shen really just needs an as/hp/cdr item. Riot really needs to make an item like that so health bruisers can duel with regular lifesteal bruisers.

ExecutorDillFeb 13, 20151 votes

Get a Nashors tooth with an ap tank item like Rylais or Liandry's then just go full tank really. but ya he needs a bit more Q damage and better scaling on E then problem fixed :3 E can scale with Armor, AD or my personal favourite Bonus Mov Spd, all logical choices.

MadraFeb 12, 20152 votes

I was actually a little floored when I tried Shen recently and realized he didn't get any MR/level. I thought all the tanks got MR/level: even most melee champions do. Kassadin doesn't, but his passive is -15% Magic Damage. I was looking at a few and it seems that Singed doesn't get any either. Seems like the popular tanks from the FoN era had their MR/level removed and never got any of it returned.

Lord Graves IIIFeb 12, 20151 votes

No, but not for the reasons you might expect.

Shen is in a better place than plenty of champs, like Taric, or Poppy. But at the same time, Shen doesn't need buffs, he needs remade. He is either never ever seen, or a constant pick or ban. His kit won't allow him to be "Viable" or "decent" without being "complete global bullshit".

I'd sooner they just redo Shen and give him a better kit. Give us the superhero ninja we deserve.

Hes like Warwick. He has a kit that needs fixed, and isn't really going to be fair or balanced until it happens. Shen is kept weak because of that damn ult of his is so gamebreakingly strong.

Shennifer LopezMar 9, 20151 votes

Personally, I think that Shen's problem is that the way he is played doesn't match who his character is supposed to be, a ninja. He is supposed to be a ninja with some team supporting characteristics since he is supposed to be the yang (positive, "good") to Zed's yin (negative "evil/bad"). In order to achieve this, I think he needs to altered slightly so that he will be built AD to become more of a ninja assassin. The problem with building him AD right now is that once he goes in (even with a full team taunt), he can't get out and is instakilled. If Riot gave him a reset on his taunt ONLY if he himself killed an enemy AND only for three seconds after the enemy's death. Then he could taunt a carry, kill them, and then either taunt again to get out or to try and lock down another enemy. The three seconds worth of a reset forces Shen players decide quickly whether they want to go back in or try and get out in addition to giving the other team some counterplay (like kiting him for the three seconds). This would fill his assassin role by being able to actually kill someone late game by himself (that doesn't take an hour with full tank, thornmail build) and would also satisfy his team supporting characteristics with his ultimate and the ability to still taunt multiple targets for your team. This would make Shen way more fun to play (high risk/high reward) compared to playing as a full tank ninja that can taunt and throw a dagger at people while waiting for his taunt to come back up, which usually happens after the team fight is over late game. His abilities would obviously be AD scaling, but not enough scaling to where he would become too powerful. For people who think this is going to be op, just remember that this is a complete AD build and he will die quickly if he doesn't land his first taunt and kill his target quickly. The rest of his abilities would still be perfectly fine as it gives him a little bit of survivability.