Let's say Plants go on live and are fine, why are we removing Smite Buffs?

Arakadia·Oct 17, 2016·45 votes·3,076 views

I don't care about plants, but we are we even removing smite buffs at all?

85 Comments

MarshbouyOct 18, 201616 votes

Let's look at this logically. First clear you HAD to smite either krugs or gromp (or start blue) and you generally ONLY smite buffs after that. Second clear you might smite just to clear faster but everything past the second clear you are entirely going to save smite for objectives/wolves/raptors.

Eventually you would do nothing but smite 2/6 camps. they are a pretty outdated mechanic.

DarkRitualOct 18, 201615 votes

Wolf and Raptor buffs are insanely useful.

MarshbouyOct 18, 20163 votes

Yes they are, but they are worth the same as item 3649 or item 3364

DarkRitualOct 18, 201617 votes

False. Wolf spirit tells you when someone enters an entire half of your jungle. Much better coverage than a single ward. Raptor buff lasts longer, so you don't have to guess nearly as much where wards are at a given point. It doesn't let you clear as many wards/traps at once, but it certainly has its uses.

Some junglers want to smite for the health later on, other's don't. If you have a good sustain jungler, you don't need to smite buffs for the health. You save it for camps you can make more use of. Problem is, there's really only one "correct" choice for each specific jungler. They want jungle to be less of a "solve this equation for this jungler because the equation never changes." I think there's a better way to go about it, but I beleive that is the general reason for the upcoming jungle changes.

MarshbouyOct 18, 20163 votes

False. Wolf spirit tells you when someone enters an entire half of your jungle.

And is buggy and can be outran.

Raptor buff lasts longer, so you don't have to guess nearly as much where wards are at a given point. It doesn't let you clear as many wards/traps at once, but it certainly has its uses.

It has its uses but its definitely inferior to item 3341 and item 3364 because it does not deactivate the wards and it can sometimes go off for either almost dead wards (and the despawn before you get to them) or it runs out before you can find and kill the ward.

Some junglers want to smite for the health later on, other's don't. If you have a good sustain jungler, you don't need to smite buffs for the health. You save it for camps you can make more use of. Problem is, there's really only one "correct" choice for each specific jungler.

Allowing non sustain junglers to have better sustain will help kill sustian junglers from dominating the meta.

Jet SettOct 18, 20168 votes

Raptor smite lets you know when wards are nearby, rather than you taking a guess with Oracle. It is inferior in most situations, but it is not DEFINITELY inferior.

ReZisT LustOct 18, 201614 votes

im the asshole midlaner who places a ward on enemy chicken camp so it instapops

Spaceman5pffOct 18, 20161 votes

Sustain Junglers aren't even IN the meta right now, so that last point is pretty fkin moot.

MarshbouyOct 19, 20161 votes

Graves Nidalee excuse me?

Spaceman5pffOct 19, 20161 votes

I mean I guess they sustain well, but they are picked for putting huge pressure on the map.

When I think of a sustain jungler, I am thinking of Zac Warwick Fiddlesticks people who stay nice and healthy in the clearing process.

But yeah, those two do sustain well, so i guess I see your point.

MarshbouyOct 19, 20161 votes

But yeah, those two do sustain well, so i guess I see your point.

as in. "They absolutely shit on any other 'sustain jungler' to the point of utter hilarity". Seriously. They don't seem like sustain junglers on the outside so i can see how you would get confused.

Spaceman5pffOct 19, 20161 votes

Well the thing is, they aren't really sustain junglers. Graves cheeses them and nid just takes less damage bc she can clear them so fast.

MarshbouyOct 19, 20161 votes

but they are sustained because of their "cheese"

ArakadiaOct 18, 20163 votes

Wolf is pretty great, it covers a whole quadrant of the jungle. Additionally, raptors helps clear our wards and can thus check more area.

Also, Rito wants to fix whats not broken. It might be outdated, but its not broken. If they change it to just a heal it will fall into the same pit, people will just not use smite for buffs once they dont need it.

Sightless66Oct 18, 20164 votes

It might be outdated, but its not broken

I'd call it pretty broken. It's a piece of the game that requires neither thought nor mechanical skill. It's something you never, ever really get to make a decision around. It's just another piece of rote memorization you have to learn if you want to be able to jungle. Insipid, boring design is something we should be looking to eliminate, and this is a great opportunity to cut some out.

people will just not use smite for buffs once they dont need it.

Then they will get to use it more in fights, which generally feels better than being obligated to smite for camps anyways. It also means that junglers who traditionally had sustain problems can find more sticking power in the jungle instead of having to smite for buffs they may not give a shit about, whereas more sustained junglers can find other uses. That opens up options by itself. Overall, definitely an improvement.

ArakadiaOct 18, 20162 votes

How is it thoughtless or broken? If im playing X jungler and see the enemy jungler is shaco or lee sin (heavy invaders) I will smite wolves often. If im playing nidalee I will smite krugs for the buff instead of X camp so I can clear skuttler. Its brainless for the first clear then you gotta think about who your gonna use it on. Champs, drags, barons, and the valuable smites like wolf and raptors.

Sightless66Oct 18, 20162 votes

How is it thoughtless or broken?

Because once you've learned the ideal usage, you don't have to think about it ever again. Here, let me summarize it: Save the smite for raptors whenever you possibly can, smite krugs when you need to clear with some sustain (and you'll stop doing that as the game goes on unless you have no hard CC), and smite their wolves when you invade. Other than that, save it for fights and objectives. I've just expressed 99% of the optimal jungle smites, and it took me two sentences. More importantly, at no point did I say anything about "if the enemy does X, react by doing Y". That's the problem. What you want to smite is set in stone from the moment the game starts. Reactivity is virtually nonexistent.

If im playing X jungler and see the enemy jungler is shaco or lee sin (heavy invaders) I will smite wolves often.

If you're being caught out in your blue side jungle, ward control is going to be a much greater problem pretty much always. It will keep you safer and allow counter-aggression. Smite raptors. Don't smite wolves unless you know they're already entering your jungle and you're about to fight.

By the way, this is a key example of what Riot was talking about. The only time smite buffs are worth thinking about is at lower elo play where people overestimate certain effects. Once people figure them out, they're brainless.

Once you learn the relative value of each smite buff, you almost never have to actually strategize about them again. There is no tactical decision making to be had I can't remember the last time I saw a high elo jungler adapt his smites based on enemy actions. It's just not worthwhile.

Oakleaf RangerOct 18, 20162 votes

This, how often is krugs and gromped smited for the buff in comparison to the other camps. Currently its very obvious that certain camps are just flat out better for smiting than others. So now the playing field is being leveled out. I personally welcome the change to the camps. As someone who plays mid and top (can jungle very well but find it hard to carry when my all my lanes are losing) ganking lanes will become much harder since there will be fewer tools to block and control vision available to the jungler. Help distinguish the trash junglers from the good ones.

devdev463Oct 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Let's look at this logically. First clear you HAD to smite either krugs or gromp (or start blue) and you generally ONLY smite buffs after that. Second clear you might smite just to clear faster but everything past the second clear you are entirely going to save smite for objectives/wolves/raptors.

Eventually you would do nothing but smite 2/6 camps. they are a pretty outdated mechanic.

It's not an outdated mechanic though... The checks and trade offs simply aren't there yet, and they should improve upon them by changing it so only 1 or 2 buffs are for jungle sustain while the other 4 are utility. The option to smite either a raptor or a wolf is pretty interesting but it can definitely be better.

What's the point in abondoning what could be a very interesting mechanic with a few tweaks?

JbelsOct 17, 20164 votes

Wait does that mean no more healing when you smite red? That will screw SO many junglers it's not even funny

Connor HawkeOct 17, 20166 votes

no you get healing from every camp that you smite now instead.

MohawkBirdOct 18, 20163 votes

[deleted]

President Swa1nOct 18, 20163 votes

I believe they stated that as one of the reasons for the change, too.

Lord DesertOct 17, 20168 votes

You get 100+ 10%maxhp back now(smite on red was 20%), but the values might be tweeked.

The Yetii RiderOct 18, 20162 votes

Smite on red is 20% missing health. That's a big difference between that and 10% max health.

LordSirChipmunkOct 18, 20163 votes

It's going to make jungling for newbies like me heck on earth, in terms of level 2 red camps. I already struggle with clearing the level 2 red buff, and I need that smite health bonus to survive it. Riot thinks this will make jungling easier for new players, but it won't. Upvoted.

Cookimonster316Oct 18, 20163 votes

Im pretty sure smiting camps now gives hp for everything, at least that is what i heard.

President Swa1nOct 18, 20162 votes

In the Road to Preseason post, Riot said that now, every smite on any camp gives you health back for 100+ 10% of max HP

LordSirChipmunkOct 18, 20162 votes

What about Mana? Thanks for informing me though.

President Swa1nOct 18, 20161 votes

I'm not too sure about that, good question.

President Swa1nOct 19, 20161 votes

Just checked on the official season 7 update page, honey fruit gives mana

Solari FortuneOct 18, 20163 votes

Because the Combat Smites were basically having issues You wanted to smite Raptors for the ward detection, but you also want to smite the carry in a team fight, but you still need it for drag

P0IS0N IVYOct 18, 20165 votes

Isn't that a good thing? You have to make choices.

Solari FortuneOct 18, 20161 votes

the issue was that in the end it was just held onto forever and you just walked around with 2 smite charges

ArakadiaOct 18, 20166 votes

Why would you hold onto it forever? Wouldnt you use it if you needed it so much?

AdriqnoheeOct 18, 20161 votes

Because you couldn't know when you would need it and for what, and having smite for an objective is far more important than securing a jg buff or dealing more damage to the enemy carry, so junglers would never want to risk not having it.

Backup4nowOct 18, 20162 votes

This guy is actually correct. Unless you're a farming jungler like Udyr where you just take everything you can and don't gank often, you typically hold on to your smites until you absolutely must use them, like in important fights (if you have a combat smite) or for dragon.

ArakadiaOct 18, 20164 votes

Isn't that called tactical decisions?

KingnewgameplusOct 18, 20162 votes

I think the way that derp is trying to interpret it is the megalixer effect, where its so valuable, that you never use it. I have never had this problem but I think that's what he's going for?

Just Blame JennyOct 18, 20163 votes

I'm kind of going to miss the smite buffs, but I guess we'll see how that goes.

That said, is anything being done about scuttles? The heavy hands buff is pretty much the only way some junglers (e.g. Nidalee) can clear them early in a reasonable amount of time.

Blue Moon WolfOct 18, 20163 votes

Apparently it's because it created an "optimized jungle route" that junglers followed instead of just being "helpful bonuses to be mindful of" like Riot wanted. I don't see how these plants will be much better since the only two that are really that good are the vision and health plants (the blast plant could help to get away from someone, but that's more of an escape tool than a jungle assists) and we will very likely have the issue of junglers getting pissed when laners take his healing plants, but we'll just have to see.

Xion The XIVOct 18, 20164 votes

These plants will more then Likely fail for Multiple reasons.

Healing plants will be too beneficial to any champion with a Dash/Jump skill. So they can Dash/Jump through the Health oranges and get 1 slow instead of all of it.

Vision Plants seem to only be placed Near Objectives Such as Baron and Dragon. They also last for 15 seconds of vision. So Lee Sin/Shen/Thresh/Kha'Zix or anyone with a wall hoping effect will just set the plant off and go back to killing the objective.

The explosion plant is a joke in of itself. Instead of Punishing someone's Mistake you are allowing them to have a get away free card in the jungle when it spawns. That plant will force someone to either stop chasing the 10 hp mid laner running or force a flash for a kill. Will be having a lot of fun seeing Katarina's jump to them and laugh.

I also don't really see why they are complaining about people taking one jungle route as a bad thing. Some junglers are Dependent on Farming to help win the game. WarWick needs lvl 6 before his ganks are anything but a joke. Some Junglers were dependent on Golem smite buff to get the stuns without having to back after their first clear of Red and raptors. This decision just makes it seem to really benefit Sustain Junglers only. I know other junglers can eventually get out of the need for the buffs, but by the time they do Nunu would of already ganked a few lanes and is a higher level then you for all of your early backs.

Whiteeye AvelynOct 18, 20161 votes

I understand what you are saying but i think people need to chill out for just a bit and wait for them to go on the pbe before we riot, we don;t know their spawn rate, where they are going to spawn.Now im not saying that they will be the greatest thing every but i can see where they are coming from the only things i ever really smited for the buff were wolves in my foes jungle birds and red cause the rest where really Meh,But that's just me.

RainbowIceeOct 18, 20161 votes

you make a great point, but personally my worry is that riot never listens to the feed back of the testers. Some testers have warned and given great feedback on things that riot fails to take action on until it's already live and causing a mess.

Whiteeye AvelynOct 19, 20161 votes

That's fair because riot has a problem with response time, Though they have given or are giving us everything we said we wanted like replays sandbox and solo Q

RainbowIceeOct 19, 20161 votes

well at least mostly but it's a step in the right direction. Now If we could only have a seasonal/annual community voting on some skin themes that'd be perfect.

TalisidOct 18, 20162 votes

I want the Raptor Buff to remain in the game in some form. That's honestly the only interesting one. The rest can go.

LordSirChipmunkOct 18, 20162 votes

I think the red and blue smites were really useful though. Krugs were also kinda fun imo.

SinlaireOct 18, 20162 votes

they were really fun when the stun also applied to champions like when they were released. play XinZhao or MasterYi , break 2.0 attack speed, then gank. you could get 1-2 stuns off in a pretty short period and if you were Xin you could stun, knock up, stun again almost back to back. it was terribly broken and needed to go but was soo much fun for good ganks.