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Cassiopeia+Singed bot lane... The anti-meta duo?

Elindiir··4 votes·2,499 views

Me and my buddy have been playing around with this pair lately with amusing results. From what it seems, this duo counters mechanics that are wildly popular in the bot lane... The pair significantly punishes mobile ADCs who build their kit around mobility, as well as punishing tank supports that exist to be all over their opponent whether it be a pull, a dash, or both.

Under normal conditions, Singed can't support because he farms WAY too effectively, but Cassiopeia nullifies that because her Twin-Fang last hits WAY better on poisoned targets, therefore allowing them to shove in the lane hard and make the enemy have CS trouble because going-in on them is a rather dangerous action.

There are counters to this however, with Janna and Morgana being the main ones. Janna can keep Singed perpetually CCed in some matter, keeping the running man from running, all while keeping a shield up. Morgana can keep from being burned down with her E while she R,Q, and Ws....

So, what do you think of this duo?

(Note, I answered A to be able to read results.)

23 Comments

The Queen Viper3 votes

It doesn't really work in Ranked the higher you go but since you are a Bronze 4 ... do whatever since you can't really go any lower than Bronze so give it a try and see what happens.

However note that you DO NOT want to shove your lane when you are Cass unless it's safe to do so, and Singed is an AWFUL support for Cass. You don't need Singed to support you... Cass can poison people on her own just fine. Instead you want a support with CC to lock people down and make the lane safe for you, so that you won't die the very moment the enemy jungler comes to say hi.

Elindiir1 votes

Me and my friend are good about warding, and ghost can make getting out of sticky messes easy. Almost every time we got ganked, it amounted to nothing or kills for us because Singed has protection simply by the concept of Singed Rule#1: Don't chase a Singed... That is compounded by the fact that if people chase, I shoot them down faster than any marksman. Singed has enough CC for me to survive with his big slow and flip and the triple DoT-ing that we do turns the lane into a mess.... Plus, Cassi has her own disengage in her ult that I keep for the sole purpose of when I get ganked.

However, I do see now that a strong bias is in the fact that we are extremely coordinated in our actions and both of our support-main-instinct of excessive warding habits.

EDIT: Also, it is quite mana costly even with my mana regen page to constantly be using Q and W to farm, but the little bit of Singed running around the minion wave and scaring off the farming ADC (because if Singed gets close, it is virtually an automatic kill or a burn of flash) makes my own mana-pool happy because Singed's mana pool doesn't have to be as filled as my Cassi's to make a move.

The Queen Viper2 votes

{quoted}

Me and my friend are good about warding, and ghost can make getting out of sticky messes easy.

You shouldn't need to use Ghost, since you have MS boost in Q and slow in W... and a stun in ult. I personally suggest running Exhaust (or Cleanse even) since you will need that when trading.

{quoted}

Almost every time we got ganked, it amounted to nothing or kills for us because Singed has protection simply by the concept of Singed Rule#1: Don't chase a Singed...

Well that's good for Singed! ... not so much for you since any decent player will just ignore him and focus you down instead. And Singed cannot really do much other than run around in circles while they slaughter you.

{quoted}

That is compounded by the fact that if people chase, I shoot them down faster than any marksman.

Again, you don't need Singed to poison people, you need a proper support to hold people down.

You are just making your life so much harder with these unnecessary "plays".

Not to mention that Singed doesn't really bring much to the team anyway.

{quoted}

Singed has enough CC for me to survive with his big slow and flip and the triple DoT-ing that we do turns the lane into a mess....

Depends who you are up against. Many meta champs nowadays don't really care about slows... and anyway, if you want slows then there's no reason to pick Signed over Janna for example.

There's a very simple reason why you don't see Signed played as a support: It just doesn't work.

{quoted}

Plus, Cassi has her own disengage in her ult that I keep for the sole purpose of when I get ganked.

It's bad if you have to waste your ult just to disengage from a fight.

That's not how it supposed to be used.

{quoted}

However, I do see now that a strong bias is in the fact that we are extremely coordinated in our actions and both of our support-main-instinct of excessive warding habits.

Like I said, if it works for you then go for it.

Just remember that it won't work for long... so abuse it while you still can.

{quoted}

EDIT: Also, it is quite mana costly even with my mana regen page to constantly be using Q and W to farm,

Why are you using them to farm?

Please stop doing that, you don't want to push your lane all the time.

Q is for poking / harassing and W is for the slow... being it engage or disengage.

Just last hit with your E ... minions don't even need to be poisoned anymore.

When it comes to your "mana page", you can use Mana regen Seals if you like (I do it myself also), but you don't really need anything more than that. After your first back, you should get Tear and that pretty much solves all the mana problems you have. Not to mention you should start with Dorans Ring, since it also gives little bit of mana regen.

Put some CDR Glyps in there and you are set.

Personally suggest running 2x MS quints, helps with kiting.

{quoted}

but the little bit of Singed running around the minion wave and scaring off the farming ADC (because if Singed gets close, it is virtually an automatic kill or a burn of flash) makes my own mana-pool happy because Singed's mana pool doesn't have to be as filled as my Cassi's to make a move.

I'm sorry but all this nonsense about using Singed as a support just really reeks of you not wanting to play properly and using Singed as a some sort of "crutch" ... Again, if it works for you now then go for it, but it won't work for long if you start climbing.

Elindiir1 votes

I like this a LOT, a SOLID counter-argument and a solid set of reason. Its not just "No it won't work because Singed doesn't support" you add detail of WHY it won't work. And I like this. Though you don't take much into account the fact that those that don't usually care about slows will suddenly care about them with Cassi's grounding, and Singed flipping into Singed's slow will root them. But other than that, it has been quite a pleasure arguing logically with you.

(I am not using sarcasm at all when I say this, and I am Up-Voting you.)

Mig891 votes

Yeah when someone takes the time to quote out your argument like that you know they're serious. XD

Elindiir1 votes

I like when people do that because it makes it healthy. I personally don't know how multi-quoting works, so I try to at least reply to all points... I do many argument threads like this for healthy reasons, and I put in polls so that people can just throw in a short answer opinion there instead of just filling the thread with nopes. I have gotten a lot of "One trick pony" votes which makes me happy because it means people are actually THINKING of this rather than going "Cassi isn't a marksman".

BastionKross3 votes

Teamwork can beat the meta. If you have a buddy and you're both on the same page, chances are you can pick just about any two champs, go bot lane, and be a credible threat. Some combos will be more effective than others, of course. Don't worry about if the community approves of your duo, as long as you can win with it, they can go to hell.

Now if you're looking for critique about that combo, there's a few major weaknesses. Most importantly, if no one on your team picks a marksman in a solo role, your team will be lacking that physical damage DPS come late game. Singed's utility isn't the greatest if he's gold starved later on as well, since he'll struggle to split push and not be able to do the normal Singed things like lead three opponents on a five minute chase through their own base turrets. He'll basically be a slow/flip bot, and sometimes that's not going to be enough contribution to a teamfight.

And like you mentioned, there are strong counterpicks to this in the form of Janna and Morg, two not unpopular supports. There's a significant chance you might end up getting counterpicked purely by accident. That's gonna suck.

Elindiir1 votes

Thanks, and it was intent for critique, I like a little healthy discussion about this and to see what people think... Me and my buddy have been doing a lot of fooling around with WTF comps that do surprising things.

Girard2 votes

I imagine a Varus who can aim with any competent support would just make a massacre of this lane.

Friendly Ram2 votes

Good but not the most toxic bot lane. Go cass teemo and watch them cry.

Elindiir1 votes

Done it LOL!

It isn't QUITE as looney early on, but late laning phase gets disgusting.

Friendly Ram1 votes

I just love free heals off of everything. Gotta see how the singed cass works sometime. Made any good videos on it?

Elindiir1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Happy Honker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6KNA5ygy,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-06-13T19:31:23.443+0000)

I just love free heals off of everything. Gotta see how the singed cass works sometime. Made any good videos on it?

Hopefully my friend (The Singed) will record us in action... I would REALLY love to get a video of us against Kalista and/or Blitzcrank. He has gotten 3 S's in the recent games we did this on.

Elindiir1 votes

HERE IS A VIDEO OF IT ALL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMtxmCpyuAs

Friendly Ram1 votes

Thank you.

Fusarix2 votes

Cassio teemo was better (before casseio was changed) it was basically a free first blood. Since teemos e' counts for cassio poison e coold down reset (which doesnt exist anymore). The very large issue I see with this duo is if singed gets poked early by a ranged support, and since he has no sustain gets kicked out of lane. If your up against a braum and a farming adc like kog maybe. But if you have to fight something like lucian nami... good luck mayn

Elindiir1 votes

The Cassi actually does terrible things to super-aggressive ADCs like Lucian and Kalista because they have to get in close and are dependent on dashing around. Braum is probably the best tank against this comp, but Braum is still in a bad situation because he gets DOTed. However, the ranged poke issue is something shared by most vanguard supports like Leona. The poison factor still gives Cassi a massive DPS boost. Basically this comp exists to counter Lucian/Kalista and Blitz/Thresh/Leona/Nautilus

Dedrius2 votes

It will be pretty difficult to stay in lane vs ranged harass from the ADC and no sustain on singed, making that lane pretty meh. If you want double poison try going cass sup with twitch adc, its pretty good.

zlumpy1 votes

I feel like the problem with this idea comes when the entire enemy tam decides to pile into bot lane like they usually do anymore and procedes to lock these 2 heros out of the game....then again who doesn't this tactic work against >.>

Elindiir1 votes

And that is why I run ghost LOL.... So, Singed chase game anyone?

Maximum Morde1 votes

Lucian would get so fed, as would other bully/super long range adcs. I just don't see it working too well against players who aren't going to get cheesed.

Cass and Singed rely on base damage early, which means they rely a ton on level. Duo lane denies them level, and traditional ranged adcs/supports suffer less from that.

Elindiir1 votes

Cassi and Singed rely on the enemy trying to make a move and then turning the tables against them with extremely high DPS upon their entry in the danger zone... They both have zone lockdown against anyone that get in it. Poke-n-Farm ADCs on the other hand would not have as much trouble, but as it goes in the video, this duo does not miss CS easily. This pair counteracts heavy engage but is weaker to disengage.... Watch the vid to see how this works... not the best examples sometimes because the Illaoi really sucked despite being premade with the enemy ADC, but you can see.

Maximum Morde1 votes

Any long ranged ADC like Cait, Ashe, Jinx, etc is going to poke back so hard that you just get bullied out of lane or die. Pair basically any high damage ADC like Lucian, Draven, MF, Corki with a disruption/cc Support like Blitz/Thresh/Naut/Morgana and they will just straight kill you then go back to farming. Any ADC with any Sustain support like Soraka, Sona, or Nami, will literally just outsustain the damage and keep farming, possibly pick up kills because they will out trade as Singed and Cass simply can't compete as they are too mana constrained.

It isn't Cass that is the weak point(though she isn't very strong either). It's that Singed. Any competent player is going to abuse that Singed so hard he will need to call a hotline and move to a shelter. Early game singed is way too weak to stand up to sustained harass in a duo lane against competent players.

Cheese strats like that are amusing against baddies, nothing more. Your video doesn't contradict anything I've said. You are playing against bronze4/5 and unranked under level 30s in that video.

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