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@Riot @Meddler. Hi! Could we discuss why the "Unique Playstyle" champ's don't have these Subclasses?

Solideus··6 votes·3,829 views

Hello! I think the subclass categorization is a great way to work with champions, both for improving design and for new players to find and understand champions they'll enjoy.

I don't, however, think "Unique Playstyle" is a useful category, and an unique kit shouldn't disqualify them from being categorized in a way that makes sense. The output of the kit can still be categorized in some way.

Anyway, the subclass DOESN'T have to fit PERFECTLY, they are only a loose definition so you have common ground for discussing a champion, but these champions need that common ground too. They don't fit perfectly anywhere, but there's a category that best suits their needs.

These following subclass-categories make sense to me; I'd love to hear you argue why they don't work for the champion. That goes for you other forum-goers as well, of course!

  • Chogath - Battle Mage (Hybrid Juggernaut)
  • Blitzcrank - **Disruptor **(Hybrid Warden)
  • Singed - Juggernaut
  • Fiddlesticks - (Jungling) Disruptor
  • Kennen - Disruptor (Hybrid Battle Mage)
  • Urgot - Too Be Determined. Post rework, possibly Battle Mage or Artillery

I don't think those are nonsensical categorizations! The new Controller/Disruptor categories really filled a gap in the class-categories, which you might have underestimated! I think some of these champions have had confused identities because they're actually Disruptors! Great news, Woho!

Here's my rationale behind the categories for each champion:

  • Cho'Gath: He's a lumbering, often kite-able, titan with a kit that plays like a mid-range mage; Therefore, Battle Mage with a splash of Juggernaut.

  • Blitzcrank: Compare him to Taric (Enchanter + Warden-Hybrid) for a second; Blitzcrank is what you would expect of the tanky melee Disruptor counterpart to Taric. Therefore, **Disruptor **with a splash of Warden.

  • Singed: He wants to splitpush and wants to be chased, but that's irrelevant to what subclass he is, IMHO. Ultimately he (should be) kiteable but tanky and brings a lot of sustained dmg, so I can't see him as anything but a Juggernaut. Looking at his kit, most of his abilities look like those of other Juggernauts. Therefore, Juggernaut, possibly with a splash of something like Disruptor, Battle Mage, etc.

  • Fiddlesticks: Unlike other Disruptors he's a dedicated Jungler, but that shouldn't be held against him; Kindred is still a Marksman, after all. In summary, despite his archaic kit, you find in it what you'd expect from a non-laning Disruptor, I think. Therefore, Disruptor.

  • Kennen: He is a flex-pick, but let's stick with the primary mage-y version. What's most iconic about Kennen? His Passive and Ult. He locks down opponents and entire battlefields (Disruptor) and has the tools to go into the thick of battle (Battle Mage). Therefore, Disruptor with a splash of Battle Mage.

  • Urgot: Kind of irrelevant, as his kit is archaic and will change so much after the eventual rework that there's basically no use arguing what to call him yet. But I'm SURE he'll belong to some subclass once his modernizing VGU is finished! That one is just a matter of waiting for the drop! Because his E-Q is likely to stay I'd guess Artillery or Battle Mage, though.

That's it, please bring your viewpoint to the discussion! What do you agree/disagree with? I hope some Reds chime in too!

//Best Regards, Solideus

34 Comments

RiotMeddler4 votes

Hi!

We went back on forth on those champs quite a lot, with some similar arguments to those you've outlined being made. Our eventual feeling was that while there were sub classes that were better matches than others, those champs also had enough characteristics that weren't representative that they were ultimately more unhelpful in getting good discussion going than helpful.

This stuff's also pretty work in progress too. I suspect at some point we'll probably add a couple of new subclasses for example. One of those might be a category of high risk, middle of the enemy team mage type that Fiddle and Kennen could fall into, along with champs like Kat and Lissandra. Another could be a breakdown of marksmen into multiple categories if we found an appropriate set of criteria that described what they did that was different, not just how they do it or how individual marksmen are different from other individual marksmen.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

This stuff's also pretty work in progress too. I suspect at some point we'll probably add a couple of new subclasses for example. One of those might be a category of high risk, middle of the enemy team mage type that Fiddle and Kennen could fall into, along with champs like Kat and Lissandra. Another could be a breakdown of marksmen into multiple categories if we found an appropriate set of criteria that described what they did that was different, not just how they do it or how individual marksmen are different from other individual marksmen.

I like to think of those as Engage mages. Particularly with Kennen and Liss, as the offer a powerful engage tool, Moderate damage, And Lock down, which can offer your team a good means to start a fight, in lieu of a Tank. Especially with Hour Glass, to keep you alive.

Not as much with Kat and Fiddle, as they don't have the lock down, So their engage becomes more mid line after your regular tank has already CCd the main group.

Teridax685 votes

Out of potential marksman subclasses, would you consider the following groups:

  • "Utility" marksmen who tend to trade off raw damage or safety in exchange for team-oriented power, namely Ashe, Kalista and Sivir, with Ezreal and Jayce having some incidental elements through their ally buffs.
  • "Assassin" marksmen whose focus tends to be much more on priority targets, and who usually have good dueling power as well, with some degree of target specificity, e.g. Caitlyn, Draven, Graves, Kindred, Lucian, Quinn, Tristana, Twitch, (kinda) Urgot and Vayne.
  • "Powerhouse" marksmen who tend to have very consistent, somewhat target-agnostic damage that lets them handle crowds very well, at a cost in personal survivability, e.g. Jinx, Kog'Maw, Miss Fortune and Varus.

There's likely a fair amount of overlap between these subclasses, and they might not capture all marksmen perfectly, but would these set a proper distinction between marksmen? Have these groups been considered before? If an issue with marksmen is that they're too similar in terms of what they do, would you consider doing another class update to nudge them towards greater separation?

BluePolarizer1 votes

that's actually pretty good, but typically utility marksmen either end up as powerhouses with huge AOE damage (Ashe and Sivir have huge AOE damage, especially with Runaan's) or as duelists (Kalista is one of the best duelists in the game and Ezreal has pretty high burst).

Teridax681 votes

That's true; Sivir in particular is known for her tremendous waveclear/AoE through her W + Q, so it's entirely possible that any hypothetical utility marksman subclass could just fit under other subclasses with utility or crowd control as a unique feature. With that said, I think some of that may come from marksmen each going into multiple potential subclasses when they should really be specializing in fewer features (Kalista, for example, has a really confused identity, as her whole theme is ally-centric power but her passive and E make her one of the best duelists in the game, as you mentioned). On one hand, it's difficult to differentiate marksmen because they all do very similar things (i.e. autoattack-based DPS, which usually bleeds into objective control, pushing power, tank-busting, etc.), but one of the main issues with the marksman class is probably because any individual marksman guarantees too many things, which is partly why the class is mandatory above any other in every game.

Solideus2 votes

I personally think Marksmen, if anything, are better served with hybrid-subclasses than they would with their own subclasses, at least right now. "Powerhouse" marksmen are "pure" marksmen, while others simply borrows things from non-marksmen classes. That's my view on it, at least.

Teridax681 votes

I agree that the "powerhouse" marksman type is generally the typical idea of a marksman -- DPS-heavy, great in teamfights, fairly vulnerable on their own -- and to some extent every marksman is a powerhouse marksman, due to how they usually itemize for high basic attack damage, and therefore very consistent DPS. You're also right that the other two subclasses I mentioned tend to be closer to others for different roles, with utility-oriented marksmen borrowing from Enchanters and duel-oriented marksmen having similarities to assassins or divers. With that said, though, many other subclasses have some running similarities, e.g. Juggernauts vs. Battle Mages, Disruptors vs. some Battle or Burst Mages, Divers vs. Vanguards, etc., so it would still make sense for marksmen to have their own subclasses, even if those have direct, or at least very close, connections to subclasses in other roles.

I also suspect a major issue getting in the way of marksman classification is that, even though there likely are marksman subclasses, practically every marksman dips into two or more of these tentative groups at a time. BluePolarizer mentioned above, for example, that Kalista is a top-tier duelist, despite also having a very ally-oriented kit, and that Sivir provides huge amounts of both AoE damage and team utility. Even the most duel-centric marksmen, like Kindred, Quinn or Vayne, are much more able to switch or chain targets than, say, assassins or even some divers, and having kits with limited innate waveclear doesn't really mitigate their pushing power once they boost their autoattacks well enough. The issue isn't necessarily with marksmen being OP or overloaded, though I feel the class as a whole might be a bit too strong relative to the others, but with there being few explicit tradeoffs between different kinds of marksman-specific power, and consequently often few differences in playstyle or general contribution.

Solideus2 votes

Absolutely, there are similarities between other different Subclasses, but that seems superficial to me because those that are similar have different primary Classes, so the strength-weakness profiles are actually quite different. The Juggernaut/Vanguard/Battle Mage Subclasses are all more or less "tough & aggressive", but that expresses itself very differently for respective Class.

All marksmen are ranged sustained damage threats but they have to keep their distance; otherwise they go down quite fast. Other distinguishing features are secondary to that core profile. Their profile is so specific that Marksmen are more like a Subclass than a Class, really! Anything straying too far away from that would no longer be a marksman, so it's inherently hard to split them into subgroups with distinct core strengths/weaknesses, at least in any useful way.

I don't think there currently is a need to create a split; they are somewhat few and don't really need to become more distinct right now; the Marksman Update was quite successful in doing that already, IMO. To create two sensical Marksmen Subclasses you'd almost have to first divide them and then make each subgroup more similar to each other, which of course would be very counter productive.

Linna Excel1 votes

Another could be a breakdown of marksmen into multiple categories if we found an appropriate set of criteria that described what they did that was different

Those that want AS or crit more vs those who are casters that want pure AD and armor pen?

Teridax681 votes

I feel that probably gets closer to "how they do it" -- if a crit marksman, a caster marksman and an on-hit marksman all happened to be really good at the same things, e.g. dueling, objective control, kiting, etc. (so basically Draven vs. Lucian vs. Vayne), then their builds wouldn't really be enough to tell them apart in terms of what they output for their team. On the flipside, build-based distinctions would do a really good job of describing itemization differences (obviously), as well as the general power curves of those marksmen, which are often an important point of distinction when picking individual champions, more so than for most other roles.

Solideus1 votes

Thanks a LOT for commenting! I find this is a really interesting subject, and I really think it's great terminology.

I am of two minds on subclasses being helpful or not for "Unique Playstyle" champions; I see your point on it being harder categories to use for these champions in particular, but I still think it might be helpful ultimately, as it gives direction. Some of these are pretty old kits, which may contribute to making them complicated to define, but my opinion on that is that picking the right subclass gives a solid direction for filling in what gaps are missing in those old kits and make them make more sense. I don't think finding and filling those gaps would take away from their uniqueness, frankly. They still retain what makes them Unique even if you smooth out the kinks or modernize their abilities, or laser-focus their output-niche!

I'm excited and intrigued by the possibility of new subclasses! The curent ones do a pretty decent job at broadly covering all the bases, so I think the call to add more depends on how specific you want to be. The "Risk Mage" makes a lot of sense and fits several champions much better (because it's more specific!), but I could also see an argument for Battle Mage ("Fragile Battle Mage"?) or Disruptor ("Damage-Centric/Damage-Threat-Zone Disruptor"?) being malleable enough to broadly contain and represent those with the current terminology, if you chose to.

Marksmen I personally don't see a great need to distinguish in the near future; there just doesn't seem to be much value to doing so. You don't seem to have trouble retaining Marksmen distinctiveness currently. Maybe in the future you'd have a good reason to do it, but I don't know.

Again, thanks a lot for commenting and engaging with the subject! I hope to see you and other Reds discussing the subject further, and do make sure to tell us if the consensus on any champion's subclass changes internally!

DeathBurst1 votes

I don't understand how grouping Blitzcrank with Leona or Malphite or even Maokai would be unhelpful. I can understand the debate around Cho or Fiddle (even if I think that Cho is definitely a Battle Mage, potentially hybrid), but Blitz is an archetypal Tank, even if his hook is iconic and very unique. He has high amount of CC, durability, lock-down potential, etc. Warden or Vanguard doesn't really matter at this point, but the other suggestions I've seen were Assassins and Disruptor. Assassin is obviously wrong for his most common build, and Disruptor doesn't fit Blitz more than Malphite or Annie with their ult up.

What made you decide that Blitz was Unique instead of whatever category of Tank? As far as I can tell, he plays pretty much like any other Vanguard if his team is ahead, and fall-back on slightly more defensive, Warden-like plays when playing from behind.

Ultîma1 votes

I actually suggested this in a previous thread of mine. There's already a pretty clear variance of playstyle between all the marksmen, the key gameplay patterns that I've identified are as follow;

Slayers - Marksmen who excel at dealing a maximum amount of sustained damage to a single target. This is the most classic definition of a marksman in League. These characters are often characterized by their shorter reach* and on key positioning to catch out priority targets on the enemy team. Champions - Quinn Vayne Twitch Draven Graves Jinx Kalista Lucian Tristana

Snipers - Marksmen usually characterized by their range, safety and ability to make plays from far behind the frontlines. These characters are defined by their ability to use their skills to make the enemy team's life a living hell whether it be by poke pressure or laying down minefields. The utility they bring compliments strategic team compositions rather than their strict damage output. Champions - Caitlyn Corki Ezreal Jhin Varus AsheKogMaw

There is sure to be a bit of overlap where some champions are concerned (Are Kog and Trist snipers or slayers? Kalista deals a lot of damage but has some of the best utility in the game.) but I feel as though these classifications sum up the broad strokes of the Marksmen class.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

One of those might be a category of high risk, middle of the enemy team mage type that Fiddle and Kennen could fall into, along with champs like Kat and Lissandra.

and karthus

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Hi!

We went back on forth on those champs quite a lot, with some similar arguments to those you've outlined being made. Our eventual feeling was that while there were sub classes that were better matches than others, those champs also had enough characteristics that weren't representative that they were ultimately more unhelpful in getting good discussion going than helpful.

This stuff's also pretty work in progress too. I suspect at some point we'll probably add a couple of new subclasses for example. One of those might be a category of high risk, middle of the enemy team mage type that Fiddle and Kennen could fall into, along with champs like Kat and Lissandra. Another could be a breakdown of marksmen into multiple categories if we found an appropriate set of criteria that described what they did that was different, not just how they do it or how individual marksmen are different from other individual marksmen.

I'm specifically curious about what "disruptor" means. What are their strengths and weaknesses aside from "probably has a stun"? Why does Morgana count as disruptor but that's only considered a tertiary role for Lux? Why are Kennen and Cho'gath considered unique instead of disruptors?

Silverclaw1 votes

For Marksman, why not 'Caster Carries' (aka Marksman that rely on their spells to do meaningful constant damage like Lucian and Ezreal) and 'DPS Carries' (aka Marksman that focus on autoattacks like Caitlyn and Vayne). Jhin, Sivir, and maybe Kog are the only three that, IMO, lie somewhere in the middle, and even then, it's not that bad.

Jhin - Has only 4 autos at a time, which leaves plenty of time for casting spells. He relies on is spells to do a decent portion of his damage, so I'd call him a Caster Carry.

Sivir - Her W is for all intents and purposes a steroid, and her main use of Q outside of laning phase is to clear waves. The rest of them are one time use spells that don't do much for her damage output. DPS Carry.

Kog - Kog's W is also a steroid, and the rest of his kit is designed to maximize the damage he does with his autos except for his ult, which is an execution tool. DPS Carry (and this goes for champions like Draven and Tristana as well).

EDIT: If you wanted to, you could also include utility carries (Marksman that tend to have lower damage output, but trade that for CC and engage power)

Solideus1 votes

I'd argue NO champion fits perfectly into any subclass, so it seems arbitrary to single out the one's you put in "Unique Gameplay". Either way subclasses are also used to denote the intended direction for a champion, even if it doesn't fit the current version; deciding what direction any eventual changes the the champion would be in IS very helpful.

Let's say you were to work on one of them to make it more cohesive; having decided on a subclass (with whatever caveats required for the specific champion) WOULD help that project.

Any kit would be better off being more cohesive with some subclass as a guideline, even with the exception of unique features on it. (Blitz's hook, Fiddle's jungling & ult, etc.)

For example, by removing the hook Blitz's kit looks a lot like that of Wardens, with a few things standing out as being misaligned (perhaps parts of the passive, ult and W). Actually using Warden (or some hybrid thereoff) as a starting point helps deciding on a direction for fixing those misalignments on his kit. Otherwise he might turn out all over the place!

His hook is unique and awesome already, and would of course inform what'a appropriate to have on the kit as well, but the subclass helps aligning the rest of his kit in a cohesive direction. Having "Unique Gameplay" gives no starting point!

AATTRROOXX2 votes
  • Chogath - Battle Mage (Hybrid Juggernaut)
  • Blitzcrank - **Disruptor **(Hybrid Warden)
  • Singed - Juggernaut
  • Fiddlesticks - (Jungling) Disruptor
  • Kennen - Disruptor (Hybrid Battle Mage)
  • Urgot - To Be Determined. Post rework, possibly Battle Mage or Artillery

I classified every champion using the new system when it first came out, and let me tell you I made the same mistakes. That's my credibility and why you should consider my suggestions. I am wholeheartedly open to comments.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

Battle Mage: A spellslinger who deal sustained damage whilst having a strong defensive ability that lets them survive at close ranges.

Cho'gath is not a battle mage (or a juggernaut because of his huge CC) he does not have effective sustained damage nor a strong defensive ability. (his ult is tankiness, not in combat defense/sustain) A better classification is vanguard, burst mage as he is a good offensive tank and has very high burst damage.

Juggernaut: A relatively low CC tank that moves slowly and has immense damage potential if not kited.

Singed is a juggernaut, but should primarily be a disruptor. He creates large zones with his poison and glue and has a fair amount of CC. He does have much damage potential and tankiness so juggernaut secondary is good.

Disruptor: creates lasting zones of control that change how the enemy moves/reacts.

Blitzcrank is not a disruptor. Yes he 'disrupts' enemy champions, but he does not fit the description of the disruptor class. No, your champion's existence isn't a zone to play around. I categorized him as only vanguard. He does a great job initiating fights with CC but doesn't fair too well when engaged on.

Fiddlesticks is a disruptor with his ult but I feel his battle mage elements with his short range and godly sustain are more prevalent. battle mage, disruptor.

Kennen can go any of three directions, disruptor/marksman/battle mage it really has more to do with how he is played than his kit overall.

Urgot... not enough information to make judgment.

These are just my thoughts on your classifications, above I linked the original post for ease of access and my post if you want to see proof that I know my sub classes. Luckily as a league player you're already taking this with a grain(or truckload) of salt.(jk) Just know that these are my thoughts from my understandings and I am open to comments/counter-arguments.

That was long. [slayer-jinx-catface]

Solideus1 votes

Hi! I'll be a bit more specific on my thinking with the above champions. I didn't want to be too detailed in the original post to keep it somewhat concise.

I'll use the subclass definitions givien by Riot themselves in their Devblog on the subject.

Chogath Cho'Gath

Battle Mages get into the middle of the fray, seeking to wreak havoc upon the entire enemy team with their overwhelming sustained area damage. Due to their relatively short (but not melee) combat ranges and the need to burn down their opponents over time, Battle Mages have significant defensive capabilities that range from sustaining endlessly to literally defying death for a short period of time.

Battle Mages don't have to have small-windowed defenses. In my opinion Cho'Gath's sustain from his passive and heal/tankiness from his ult qualifies as his significant defensive capabilities. His abilities are of similar uptime and output-profile as Swain's, whom is an archetypical Battle Mage. Despite his sustained damage E I can see an argument for Burst Mage, but he IS very tanky and the damage is gated by low range, so I'd err on the side of Battle Mage. Hard and soft CC isn't prohibited for Battle Mages; many of them have it. I think the Tankyness and kiteability of Cho'Gath is core enough to merit him being a hybrid Juggernaut, though.

Singed Singed He does have Disruptor-like capabilities, but if you look at the other Juggernauts it isn't unusual for them to have such abilities witout being considered hybrid champions. If he had a hybrid component it could be Disruptor, but Trundle, Volibear, etc, seem to be considered Juggernauts even with similar capabilities.

Blitzcrank Blitzcrank I actually think his hook is an uniquely dangerous pick-off ability that it merits being considered a threat zone around him, despite otherwise melee abilities. I think he really IS a zone of threat to play around. Isolating one poor opponent from his team seems like it falls into the Disruptor category. Being tanky and melee is why I consider him a hybrid Warden in the same way Taric is distinguished. Also compare him to the Warden Alistar, which Blitz has a similar disruptive- and peel-capabilities to once in the thick of a fight. That's why I don't consider him a Vanguard anymore.

Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks I think the ult being Disruptor-esque has huge merit for Fiddlesticks, whom is very reliant on it to succeed. the Fear and crows also seem Disruptor-esque to me. The drain is great jungle sustain, and can perhaps be used in a well-positioned gank, but in teamfights it's rarely usable. In-fight sustain WOULD be a point for Battle Mage, but considering he's so extremely fragile and that his drain is so unreliable in a teamfight scenario I DON'T think he should be considered a Battle Mage.

That's my take on them, at least!

Joman7671 votes

Cho gath is an ap bruiser and singed is just a tank but disruptor sounds cool.

Solideus3 votes

If you are unfamiliar the terms I'm using were established by Riot in this Devblog! http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

Automatis1 votes

Who cares what a champ is classified as? Riot's classifications and those 4 meters are notoriously useless. You can call Ekko an "assassin" but in reality he's got multiple build paths that just make it misleading. Classifying a champs kit doesn't dictate how they execute in any given meta, and its just needless categorization for the sake of categorization.

dumb.

Solideus1 votes

You just seem not to know what we're talking about. The above is about design, this and this; not the old tags or "meters". If you're ignorant of the subject and don't care about it, maybe you shouldn't engage with it? That'd seem kind of dumb, otherwise.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Am I the only one that found it strange they just bisected all the previously established classes, instead of actually trying to categorize them properly?

Solideus1 votes

Could you elaborate what you mean?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

They more or less took every class, and split them in half (except mages & marksmen); using a ratio of damage vs utility types. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

~ Basically dividing each class based on; do they perform offensively or defensively, and how well? Tanks; defenders like braum, and playmakers like leona.

Fighters; immobile like darius, or mobile like xinzhao.

Assassins; kill one target like zed, or kill teams like yasou.

Mages; split into 3 based on their range & rate of damage (burst, artillery, and battle), rather simple.

Supports; like the tanks, protectors such as janna, verses disruptive like zyra.

Marksmen; the lazy undivided class, here's one that should've been obvious though; auto-attack reliant such as vayne & sivir, and ability casters like corki & lucian. ~

The way they tried to oversimplify it by cutting down the middle appears as a lack of forethought. Given how several champions can be played multiple positions (morgana mid or support), let alone play different roles for the team (chogath mage or tank); I'd say there's plenty more ways to categorize the classes into more subclasses. I've been debating writing my own post on the subject for the past year, but I'd go into nitty-gritty details and end up with something a couple pages long; and I highly doubt most people have the patience these days to read it, let alone reply thoughtfully.

Solideus1 votes

Personally I think that difference is largely aesthetic, honestly. It doesn't matter how much you use autos vs. abilities, marksmen do largely the same thing either way, unlike other Subclasses.

I think it's just not useful divvying up the Marksmen at the moment. The differences must be useful to distinguish, otherwise why bother doing it?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I agree for the most part. Though I'd say the primary difference between the two I mentioned is the functionality difference. Vayne near entirely replies on right clicking to kill someone, auto-attack reliant; while corki has low cooldown abilities that do more damage than his auto attacks (usually), ability caster. Seriously, how often do you see a vayne get kills using only condem, or corki mow down teams with only autoattacks? That's why riot was separating the classes into subclasses in the first place wasn't it? To distinguish how similar champions act & react.

Solideus1 votes

All marksmen bring sustained damage, while other subclasses bring much more different things. Diver's have target accessibility, Juggers don't but raw power instead; battle mages have AoE presence, Burst Mages pick off key targets, Artillery has sustained poke, etc, etc.

What I mean is that marksmen bring the same thing, no matter if that's done through autos or abilities.They have individual differences, but there's no clear split between different kinds of output like other classes have with their subclasses. That's why I don't think the AA or Caster subclasses bring much value.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Sustained damage, you know that's a constant damage over time with minimal fluctuations. Kalista, tristana & jihn sure don't with massive spikes of damage built into their kits. Then why bother trying to subdivide any of the classes at all if you're just going to oversimplify it?

Valor Bot1 votes

I'd say Blitzcrank is more of a Vanguard, since he's an offensive tank who's always looking to catch enemies out of position with his crowd control. Disruptors, on the other hand, are Champions who are fragile and (usually) able to create huge zones of threat, like Anivia and Zyra.

Solideus1 votes

I think a pickoff- or isolating-playstyle like Blitz's, Taliyah's, Anivia's or Morgana's also fit into the Disruptor category. I also don't think target-ground abilities are mandatory, even if they're pretty common.

The hook, one of the most dangerous abilities in the game, merits being considered a dangerous zone of threat, I'd say. Blitzcrank is also tanky and melee though, which is why I think he'd be a hybrid Warden on top of being a Disruptor (just like Taric, whom is uncharacteristically Tanky among Enchanters).

If not Disruptor, I think his very melee-centric kit and having mostly short, melee, single-target lockdown and peel is more akin to a Warden rather than a Vanguard.

Compare him to the similar champions Alistar/Thresh/Maokai, whom are Wardens. I also used to think of him as a Vanguard, but I've changed my mind after looking at the current list of Wardens.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

The game still doesn't recognize Bruiser vs. Juggernaut vs. Tank or AD Carry vs. AD Caster or Burst Mage vs. DPS Mage or Tank-Support vs. Mage-Support vs. Utility-Support or...

Riot's pretty behind on a lot of things which is caused by their bad habit of tunnel-visioning on frivolous changes that they make for the sake of change. They can't correctly change champions because they can't even identify that champion's core identity.

Case in point: Mordekaiser.

Solideus1 votes

Without any context I think this whole thing comes of as hyperbolic. I don't know what it would mean for "the game to recognize", but the new subclass categories do a pretty good job at distinguishing types of champions.

Because of limited resources Mordekaiser was a less successful, but virtually every other rework has done a great job at finding and expressing the champions core identity, so I don't think your critique is all that thought trough.

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Kayle's new splash: that's not a boobplate
Story, Art, & Sound238 comments
83
votes
@Jaredan. Evolving content is great. I hope Gangplank sets a trend!
Story, Art, & Sound13 comments
58
votes
Xenomorph Zyra
Concepts & Creations17 comments
51
votes
Bioforge Sion
Concepts & Creations38 comments
51
votes