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Actual ADC Solutions?

Whisper87··18 votes·1,326 views

So I've been reading a lot how people think ADC's do too much damage. Some people say crit needs to be removed, some say items need to cost more, some say make them less damage and more utility.

My thoughts have always been that ADC are allowed to become like holy cow wtf damage Gods at 3-4 items because they are sitting ducks during lane phase and have such low individual agency pretty much throughout the game. I thought this was a fair trade off, but apparently a lot of people disagree.

So I'm wondering if anyone has any well thought out solutions that don't completely wreck the idea of a marksman carry. Here are my questions:

  1. If Crit items become more expensive, is there really a sweet spot where can slow them down a touch without delaying the build so much that it becomes too risky to play a crit stacking adc as you will have a bear of a time making it through early game? Or are we just ok with crit adc's becoming a niche pick that you'd only ever do with a composition specifically designed for it?

  2. If we remove crit or lower crit damage, how do we prevent the role from being monopolized by utility or poke/caster marksmen? At that point aren't marksmen basically just the same as mages but they can also kill objectives well?

  3. What is the issue people have with raw damage battery adcs? This similar to #2 but I'm just thinking that if we take out auto attacking crit monster adc from the equation, aren't we kind of homogenizing roles? Wouldn't people consider lower diversity between roles a unhealthy shift?

  4. What are the thoughts on re-implementing kill lanes bot? If you just nerf the relic shield & lifesteal thing I think casters like Jhin and MF will be as good as the auto attackers again overall. So then all that's missing is getting Lucian and Corki back into the bottom lane. If we give them back legit kill pressure in lane (I know technically they do, but not strong enough outvalue what other ADC bring to the table), do we think we can maybe see a world where literally every kind of ADC is really really playable? This could also be a good way to keep the crit monsters down if you could go like Leo or Naut with Lucian and kill em twice in lane phase straight 2v2 style.

41 Comments

Tèrminus10 votes

At the very least, Statikk Shiv needs to either not be able to critically strike or do so at a reduced value. Scoring a critical strike with Shiv in the early to mid game is a fairly substantial chunk of hybrid burst damage on a cheap item, and it's more RNG than standard critical strikes because you have to roll a critical on your energized attack.

Just to elaborate, at level 11, an IE+Shiv energized critical strike deals 268 flat magic damage to up to five targets.

Whisper871 votes

I like this option as it limits mid game burst to champs, but I like the idea of being able to rush Shyv for wave clear. I think this is kind of busted because most people rush Shiv over other zeal items for wave clear. The crit to champions is like extra cherry on top.

What if we make Shiv procs unable to crit champions but still able to crit lane creeps and neutrals?

Tèrminus3 votes

{quoted}

I like this option as it limits mid game burst to champs, but I like the idea of being able to rush Shyv for wave clear. I think this is kind of busted because most people rush Shiv over other zeal items for wave clear. The crit to champions is like extra cherry on top.

What if we make Shiv procs unable to crit champions but still able to crit lane creeps and neutrals?

Shiv already does +65% damage to minions by default.

https://imgur.com/6fnky84

Have that ratio scale with your critical strike chance, so that it still bursts minions with your critical chance stat.

Whisper871 votes

Yup, either way as long as the mid game insta wave clear is there

Plastic 5 ADC6 votes

Removing the crit from statikk would solve a lot of problems

+1 from me

Sp33d Zer01 votes

Pretty sure Shiv always crits if the auto does.

Tèrminus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5s8nP7X3,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2018-01-19T09:38:24.730+0000)

Pretty sure Shiv always crits if the auto does.

It does, but again, that requires you to roll a critical strike while energized.

Like, if an enemy ADC has Shiv and doesn't ever roll criticals on their Shiv procs, they won't burst you down nearly as hard as is possible if mutliple Shiv procs happen to critical.

TreeDayBan8 votes

Hypercarries need to go back to being relevant on 3 items at the least; not being end-game viable at 2. A large portion of the ADC roster isn't that great. There are 3/4 that are just too strong, and they spike too hard on 6k worth of items. But considering the coming Jinx buffs, that is not the route Riot is taking. Jinx scales like a hypercarry; she takes multiple items to get going. So hey, lets buff her so she doesn't cause the other ones are better than her on 2 items.

I mean why should I play a champ like Ashe who is complete ASS on 2 items when I could play Kog/Vayne and be end-game and better on 2?

Changing the costs of items is not going to fix this. What is 500 more gold? Kog will still get a Rageblade and Runaans and dump on your team. Vayne will still get an IE/Shiv and dump on you. All changing the costs is going to do is make other ADCs who are not great to be even worse.

Whisper871 votes

Does anyone know what caused this over tuning of crit ADC's? I mean back when Tristana was first a high priority pick she was truly a late game carry.

What accelerated the pace of crit adc's?

Did IE get buffed at some point and I just don't remember? Or was it Statik Shiv buffs? Or was it just that people realized that rushing Bloodthirster was idiotic when you could be rushing IE first or second? Or a combo of all 3?

Tèrminus3 votes

{quoted}

Does anyone know what caused this over tuning of crit ADC's? I mean back when Tristana was first a high priority pick she was truly a late game carry.

What accelerated the pace of crit adc's?

Did IE get buffed at some point and I just don't remember? Or was it Statik Shiv buffs? Or was it just that people realized that rushing Bloodthirster was idiotic when you could be rushing IE first or second? Or a combo of all 3?

Passive gold generation being increased, first turret being worth bonus gold, supports being more proficient at keeping the ADC alive and thus lessening the need for BT/Mercurial earlier, and just the fact that hitting 50% critical chance at two items is a really big spike anyway.

Whisper871 votes

Well passive gold and turret gold just accelerates the pace of the game across the board, doesn't affect ADC's in relationship to other rolls. Like yeah they hit their spike 3 minutes earlier, but so does everyone else, so their power Ratio compared to other champs doesn't change.

So this means the vast majority of what happened to ADC's is just supports being stronger and people realizing that they should rush IE instead of BT? That's crazy

Tèrminus2 votes

{quoted}

Well passive gold and turret gold just accelerates the pace of the game across the board, doesn't affect ADC's in relationship to other rolls. Like yeah they hit their spike 3 minutes earlier, but so does everyone else, so their power Ratio compared to other champs doesn't change.

It matters when ADCs have bigger spikes than most of the roster.

Also, IE alone isn't the problem. The problem that's caused by not needing the big-ticket life steal items is that IE into double Zeal upgrades becomes the best build path, and this is a problem because the Zeal upgrades are among the cheapest completed items in the game.

Hell, even just IE + Zeal upgrade + a second Zeal is pretty strong for cheap.

In a vacuum, 10% critical strike chance is a 10% increase to your auto-attack DPS, further boosted to 15% by IE. IE + Zeal upgrade is effectively a 75% increase to your DPS on top of the 70 AD from IE, further increased to 105% once you build a second Zeal, then 120% when the second Zeal is upgraded.

All that's not even factoring in all the attack speed you got too, or scoring Statikk Shiv criticals in there too.

Meanwhile, Essence Reaver ADCs are rarely if ever an issue.

Whisper871 votes

Right I know ADC's ramp up more than other classes. My point is that it's not like we just handed ADC's a free ticket to bypass other people. It's more like we crammed 36 minutes of content into 28 minutes. Everything that used to happen just happens faster, assassins getting fed, towers dying, ADC's hitting their spike.

Like let's say assassins and bruisers would shine for the first 30% of the game that on average went about 36 minutes, so about 12 of the 36 minutes they were the shit. Now they still shine for 30% of the game, but that 30% is down to like 9 out of 27 minutes instead.

So yeah not needing BT to survive the early game is a big one I can see. As it moves forward the big power spike of the ADC ahead by like 75% of a full item (BT does have SOME offensive ability).

Next question: When did people start having a big issue with ADC being primary damage batteries? I mean the first several season revolved around getting your ADC fed and carrying them to carry yourself. Even when like Lucian, Corki, Ezreal, and Graves were high priority in the bottom lane, they may not have hyper scaled but they did way more damage than most everything else. Is it just that people are getting bored of having one role fill a very specific but 100% necessary role across most every season and they are ready to see something new? Or maybe it's just that if I'm going to die I want to die to Lucian comboing and chasing me with his badass kit and not a Tristanna autoing me to death?

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Does anyone know what caused this over tuning of crit ADC's? I mean back when Tristana was first a high priority pick she was truly a late game carry.

What accelerated the pace of crit adc's?

this would do it

they buffed ALL of it.

Infinity edge V7.9 Total cost reduced to Gold 3400 from Gold 3600. Combine cost reduced to Gold 425 from Gold 625.

Zeal V7.9 Total cost reduced to Gold 1200 from Gold 1300. Combine cost reduced to Gold 600 from Gold 700.

Essence Reaver V7.9 Total cost reduced to Gold 3400 from Gold 3600. Combine cost reduced to Gold 200 from Gold 400.

they allowed shiv and rapid fires passive effects to stack in the same patch, made them energize 25% faster and allowed them to apply to turrets. the combine cost of both items was increased by 50 gold, but since they decreased the cost of zeal by 100 gold first, both items total price was made 50 gold cheaper after their buffs.

there were also direct buffs to the marksmen kits themselves over the time. like the addition of the extended ult duration on vaynes r when she scores a kill.

the weird part is that crit marksmen werent even weak at the time. its just that through massively cutting game times and exceptional game snowballing, games didnt typically reach a phase where crit marksmen became relevant. however this wasnt an issue with the class or their itemization being weak at the time, but an issue with general game pacing.

honorable mentions to

  • the warlords buff to synergize with critical strikes (now fleet footwork with the same effect)
  • the rework of support itemization

marksmen have so many outside sources of sustain, that they can skip the expensive lifesteal items and go for cheaper and greedier crit stacking builds.

instead of item 3031 item 3086 item and then item 3072 or item 3153 (around 9750 gold for those items before crit buffs)

their builds became item 3031 + double item 3086 (8600 combined gold)

you compare the cost of both builds and they pay a good 1150 gold less for their 3 item builds.

  • also the changes to item 3075

it reflects significantly less damage back at crit stackers. in the past, a 2200 gold thornmail rush could prevent an adc from stacking crit as his first 3 items, since he would shred himself on its passive if he didnt buy lifesteal. since they added grievous wounds to thornmail they massively nerfed its damage return to a flat value from a % value. this means there is no active way of punishing greedy crit stacking builds anymore.

ChaosThief5 votes

Marksmen, in their current iteration, are just problematic in general.

Their job is purely for the sake of DPS. That's fine. The issue is the fact that their DPS is designed to fight every target except tanks specifically building against marksmen, and even they struggle because you can only negate the bonuses the marksmen get and they still pierce a good chunk of your armor, meaning that they'll always do a good chunk of damage. The classes designed to counter marksmen are either delayed or too short ranged to be effective, or just flat out dodge-able.

The issue is that some raw mechanics aren't up to modern standards. Crit being so RNG heavy really makes it hit or miss for the enemies, and that all of the damage that marksmen has is typically tied into a point and click "stay out of range counterplay" mechanics, they really need to rework this in general. Change how the marksmen as a class work so that they're still reliable DPS, but not "stay out of X range or slaughter them before they can react" as counterplay.

Whisper871 votes

If we move ADC's damage off of autoing, then they become casters, which is homogenization of roles. Playing a marksman should not feel like playing a mage who builds AD items.

Again I'm looking for ways to make marksmen less problematic under their current identity, not to completely remove them or change that identity significantly.

Here's the thing is that if you make their damage spell bases (which is the only way to make it not point and click), they become gated by cooldowns. To make up for that you make the skills more bursty to make up for the downtime, this basically turns them into AD mages. The whole thing with marksmen is persistent damage. If we need to slow down their power curve or nerf that damage, OK, but I don't think it's healthy for the game to remove the only class who is capable of literally pumping out damage constantly. It's kind of the point of their existence, to have someone on your team with theoretically 100% possible damage uptime as far as per second.

only zhule1 votes

The whole thing with marksmen is persistent damage. If we need to slow down their power curve or nerf that damage, OK, but I don't think it's healthy for the game to remove the only class who is capable of literally pumping out damage constantly. It's kind of the point of their existence, to have someone on your team with theoretically 100% possible damage uptime as far as per second.

No one is debating that ADC's are suppose to have persistent damage output. What people don't like is how that damage output is very high, hit very early in the game, and on champions who are very difficult to pin down. If the ADC has a good front line that can keep enemies off them, they should 100% be able to put out some insane levels of damage. If you can catch the enemy by surprise, and they have no armor/sustain, you should have a good chance to pick off a single target. You however should not be able to go 2/1/1 by the 20 minute mark and melt through anyone not rocking 200+ armor. You should not be able to go 2/1/1 by the 20 minute mark and destroy the enemy ADC + support simply by walking forward and right clicking.

on a side note, i would argue that crit is making ADC's more like burst mages then anything else. If you up the value of straight AD, but remove critical, you get champions who can output good damage per second BUT require time to do so. I think a lot of people would rather see an ADC with 400-500 AD and zero critical, then one with 250-300 AD rocking 90% critical. The first one sounds like it would be worse, but the second one basically means every hit is doing 625-750 damage (because clearly you are going to have item 3031 )

ChaosThief1 votes

{quoted}

If we move ADC's damage off of autoing, then they become casters, which is homogenization of roles. Playing a marksman should not feel like playing a mage who builds AD items.

Again I'm looking for ways to make marksmen less problematic under their current identity, not to completely remove them or change that identity significantly.

Here's the thing is that if you make their damage spell bases (which is the only way to make it not point and click), they become gated by cooldowns. To make up for that you make the skills more bursty to make up for the downtime, this basically turns them into AD mages. The whole thing with marksmen is persistent damage. If we need to slow down their power curve or nerf that damage, OK, but I don't think it's healthy for the game to remove the only class who is capable of literally pumping out damage constantly. It's kind of the point of their existence, to have someone on your team with theoretically 100% possible damage uptime as far as per second.

I don't mean remove their power entirely from basic attacks, since that's pretty much what defines a marksmen. What I mean is give them something else to work around instead of gold.

For example: Jinx's W lets her do bonus damage to the target hit by the W for a few seconds.

Or more like varus; land 3 autos, then an ability, so weaving ability and auto attacks.

Whisper871 votes

Let me illustrate why this is problematic. These are just random numbers not actual ones, just ones to illustrate. And this is assuming 0 damage reduction, just moving damage around. I'm also assuming we nerf crit a bit to compensate.

ADC Now: autos you 4 times for 600 crit, 600 crit, 600 crit, 300 regular

ADC under your idea 3 autos and a spell: autos for 400 crit, 400 crit, 300 regular auto, and then only a 400 damage spell to make up for damage lost with crit.

If you don't nerf crit then it would need to be a 600 damage spell to make up for the lost damage.

I now this is a bit hazy so let me make the point: In order to make this work without bumping up damage output is to make the spells so strong they DO feel like casters (damage gated by CD). OR, remove pure auto attacking ADC's all together, which creates less variance in scaling and style, which is not healthy for game interest.

ChargeItDownMid4 votes

[deleted]

Whisper871 votes

Is having a marksman of some sort as a requirement really a bad thing? I mean right now Poke, Utility, Hyper Crit styles are all viable so there is quite a lot of diversity down there. The only thing they are missing are the burst traders like Lucian and Corki got nerfed out of bot so only can work in mid now.

But yeah maybe we could tone down the crit stuff a touch so that utlity and poke feels as good, at least in the early and mid game it needs to outvalue crit stackers.

I'm just saying the idea of this thread is how to make marksmen less problematic, not how to completely rework the philosophy of the game.

Sleepcoma4 votes

if adcs are spiking at one item theres a problem, which they are

Buzzkillington04 votes

Reduce item 3087 's damage vs champs or make it unable to crit and remove the interaction with item 3094 and item 3085 will need a small rework. After this there will be no more reason to rush item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 or item 3031 item 3085 item 3087 and general itemization will revert to something more expensive such as item 3153 item 3087 item 3031 or item 3085 item 3153 item 3031 + situational items. ADC itemization is a symptom of a bigger problem which is the excessive snowball + tower first blood gold + faster gold generation which also need to be adressed so the game can be in a better state, not just ADC-wise but globally. And shit like Lulu dumping an ult + redemption + her shield + locket needs to go. Each shield after the first one within X seconds should be reduced by an amount. Same for redemption heal after a shield.

vgamedude3 votes

I'd rather see a DotA like system where a number of different characters and classes can participate in the duo lane and carry rather than your carry role always being one class 24/7 of auto attacker bs.

Whisper871 votes

So if they just buff burst ADC like Lucian and then nerf relic shield on ADC then you can start playing MF and Jhin and stuff down there too, not just hyper carries. That would give you some diversity.

I just feel like if we go into a world where you can start sending melee and mages bottom, marksmen would be like a super rare niche pick. I mean Dota is fun to watch (I watch a lot), but one of my complaints is not enough ranged auto attack dps. You might catch a Drow, Sniper, or Luna every once in a while.

I think it's cool to have diversity, but I don't want to have it be where you hardly ever see a ranged auto attacker in a game. IDK why people hate on them so much.

vgamedude3 votes

{quoted}

So if they just buff burst ADC like Lucian and then nerf relic shield on ADC then you can start playing MF and Jhin and stuff down there too, not just hyper carries. That would give you some diversity.

I just feel like if we go into a world where you can start sending melee and mages bottom, marksmen would be like a super rare niche pick. I mean Dota is fun to watch (I watch a lot), but one of my complaints is not enough ranged auto attack dps. You might catch a Drow, Sniper, or Luna every once in a while.

I think it's cool to have diversity, but I don't want to have it be where you hardly ever see a ranged auto attacker in a game. IDK why people hate on them so much.

That's some diversity but not really enough in my opinion. It's still just Marksmen carries 24/7 nothing else, and Jhin is still loads of AA damage along with MF.

I can't speak for everyone but I hate ranged auto attackers because it's arguably the form of damage with the least amount of counterplay, and it's super annoying getting damaged so much by something that isn't even a skill shot from long range.

Athenes Lulu3 votes

Disclaimer: I actually don't play ADC, and that I play mostly enchanters since season 3.

An issue is that it's not just a crit problem, but as well as people who abuses it the best. ADCs that are subpar/shit right now are also crit reliant (in which we can probably also include Jhin and Caitlyn), but that's because they can't abuse the other factors (runes, double relic strat, tank busting, etc) as well as those who are meta.

Now, to break stuff down:

  1. The reason crit items got a "permanent sale tag" is because ADCs who rely on crit don't just get one item and enter a powerspike; they need at least two to fully utilize their basic potential. A big factor that they were able to "reach a powerspike by just one item" is also because of how there are other tools that's not items that "fills" up the second item that they needed to reach that powerspike. During the Ardent Censer meta, it was basically Ardent Censer giving them pretty much everything: on-hit damage (in which is one of the only tools to help melt tanks who were also just as strong that time), "lifesteal", and attack speed. During today's meta, it's the runes that gives them so much free base damage, so rushing just crit (namely Statikk) can fast forward that itemspike.

The solution? Either tone down the free damage/sustain the runes give out, and nerf the stats on the items. The reason we don't want to make items more expensive is because if ADCs are behind, they might as well remain useless for a very long time, because one does not go off and farm alone just to catch up as an ADC.

  1. Crit damage honestly needs a little bit of nerfs, mainly because it turns pure autoattackers into burst casters, and playing against that from behind feels like absolute shit. At least a 50% bonus damage reduction from what we have sounds great, though. Or we can always make it scale off bonus armor, but that would sorta defeat the purpose of armor pen.

  2. Depends on what you are really "removing", though. If you are removing "pure damage carries" that provide zero utility or zoning, then not really. But if you are removing ADCs that provide actual utility, yes. The purpose of the ADC rework back in preseason 6 was to actually differentiate that, but we all know that didn't work as intended, as hypercarries still fight for the top spot.

  3. Kill lanes is what makes botlane even more snowbally and impactful than we already have been seeing for the longest time. Yes, that's right, your favorite tank and mage supports are exactly why botlane has become extremely snowbally because kills = more snowball. In fact, there used to be a trinity of the 3 kinds of supports: kill, sustain, and poke. Ideallly, poke beats kill lane, kill beats sustain lane, and sustain beats poke. If we want to make every ADC playable, that kind of trinity needs to be maintained, which isn't the case as when kill lanes are meta, kill lanes beat everything. Honestly, I don't recommend bringing back kill lanes as that is THE source of why botlane snowballs so hard.

Note: "Poke" lanes were used to be defined as where people just poke and harass to deny farm, apply push pressure so that junglers have to come down bot, and sometimes force objectives. That as a concept isn't used much today, with a very few exceptions such as Caitlyn and Ziggs whose purpose is to get the first tower and force jungler ganks.

Tèrminus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5s8nP7X3,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-01-19T07:24:57.446+0000)

  1. Crit damage honestly needs a little bit of nerfs, mainly because it turns pure autoattackers into burst casters, and playing against that from behind feels like absolute shit. At least a 50% bonus damage reduction from what we have sounds great, though. Or we can always make it scale off bonus armor, but that would sorta defeat the purpose of armor pen.

Make Infinity Edge's bonus critical damage scale with level, from 25% up to 50% at level 18, like Lethality does.

Combine this with reducing Shiv's burst potential early on and that should go a good ways towards controlling critical DPS champions, maybe.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5s8nP7X3,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-01-19T07:24:57.446+0000)

Disclaimer: I actually don't play ADC, and that I play mostly enchanters since season 3.

An issue is that it's not just a crit problem, but as well as people who abuses it the best. ADCs that are subpar/shit right now are also crit reliant (in which we can probably also include Jhin and Caitlyn), but that's because they can't abuse the other factors (runes, double relic strat, tank busting, etc) as well as those who are meta.

this is a recurring problem when it comes to marksman balance.

shit in regards to other marksmen, doesnt mean theyre shit compared to the game as a whole. would jhinn and caitlyn still be shit and incapable of carrying games, if you nerfed all the marksmen that are currently beating them in lane and outpacing them? no.

thats why the answer to this problem isnt to buff the currently "weaker" marksmen. im saying this especially in regards to the upcoming jinx buff.

only zhule3 votes

To answer the questions.

  1. instead of making Crit items a hair more expensive, simply reduce the amount of critical strike chance all items give. The fact that i can build item 3031 + item 3087 which allows me to crit harder, hit faster, thus building charge quicker, then multi crit targets for hybrid damage is insane. Even more so when you account for the fact that with 2 items half of your attacks are critical hits. ADC is not a niche pick, the support is almost never going to have the damage output to take objectives, most mages take a very very long time to siege down a tower since they build no Attack Speed and you can't cast spells against turrets.

  2. ADC's need to have unique strengths and weaknesses. Utility usually is traded for pure power, and vise versa. Jhin has good utility and can in the right situations hit you like a semi-truck. One of the big trades offs is that he wave clears poorly and the forced reload/ big damage last shot means you have to pick and choose when you auto farm versus when to hold that damage. Vayne use to be a good tank buster, the her kit let her deal with champions like Leona by getting around high armor builds. The trade was that she had low range, and unimpressive wave clear. Now we Vayne rushing IE+ Shiv and all of a sudden she has good attack speed, amazing wave clear, and the ability to constantly hit critical after critical. With her built in knock back AND built in gap closer she has simple tools that allow her to engage or disengage meaning you often have to either catch her off guard (from stealth) or stun lock her with multiple champions. This is the same basic issue with most of the "good" ADC's currently. They barely have to invest in items, once they get 2 their damage output skyrockets, and they have built in tools to make it insanely hard to punish them (even though they are glass cannons)

  3. Same basic idea as 2. people don't have an issue with damage battery ADC persay.... They have issue with how fast the ADC gets to be that damage battery, and how many of them end up as such no matter how hard to lock them down early. If i can totally wreck the enemy ADC, put them at like 0/4/2, and still have them roll up 2 minutes later and 2-3 shot me then yes i am going to be pissed.

  4. The sustain is an issue and GOD do i hope Riot will address it. But i think we still need to have ADC's be less insane by themselves. An ADC that is mildly ahead should not be able to easily 2v1 and still walk away with 40%+ of there health.

Harden Stepback2 votes

Nerf support healing and shielding.

increase the cost of the crit attack speed items

china is problem1 votes

Or revers Season 3 stat with ADC possible burst assassin and no 6 AA for just kill Zed item 3047 item 3026 item 3071 item 3814 item 3147 item 3193

Whisper871 votes

I don't understand what you are saying?

You saying revert season 3 stat changes to ADC items?

Or saying make it so you can play burst assassins instead of ADC's?

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Zeal items + Rageblade cost increased by 200g IE + Essence Reaver -5 AD Ezreal removed from game

ADC role is now balanced.

Whisper871 votes

I don't mind the first couple, but removing Ezreal or re-working him is an issue for me. He is really the only true poke ADC left that gets all of his viability from long range damage.

Ashe and MF and Jhin and Varus all have much bigger windows on their poke, have lower consistent poke output, and have kind of a mixture of utility and then either sustain or burst paired with the utility. They are kind of like control mages of bot lane.

In order to keep the game interesting I think we need to keep him. He is just like pure poke damage bringing little to nothing else to the table, and that's a really unique role, if you remove him all of the sudden ADC role becomes very homogenized.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

ADC role is far too unique between each champion to be ever called homogenized. Ezreal is definitely not the deciding factor here. There's a huge difference between utility ADC's, hyperscaling ADC's, and AD caster ADC's. And within those 3 groups they each perform in extremely different ways.

The remove Ezreal thing was more of a joke. Cuz as I was talking about Zeals, Rage, IE and Essence, I realized Ez is one of the top ADC's but doesn't build any of those items. I don't mind healthy iterations of Ezreal--aka when Iceborne/Runic Echoes/Jungle Ez/Klepto Ez/etc. isn't broken on him.

Whisper871 votes

I feel ya. My problem is that caster ADC's besides Ezreal are like not a thing. I mean you can count MF I guess, but I tend to put her more in the category of utility ADC like Ashe, Varus, and Jhin because even though she has more raw damage output on her spells, her pattern of play tends to be similar. Poke, push, poke, push, when you see an opening you pop your ult, all of this from outside of auto range. Yeah her ult is damage, not utility, but again feels similar in that you are waiting for that perfect ult to make the big play or win the fight.

When I speak of casters I'd like to see Corki and Lucian rebuffed to the bottom lane capacity, and here's why it's healthy:

  1. They can punish crit scalers with kill pressure. This whole thread talks about the problems with crit or scaling ADC's, well if killing them in a 2v2 is a realistic option we can slow their role without even needing to directly nerf them. The poke and utility champs we listed above take too long to get real kill threat, having to poke and push the wave a lot, then being far up which makes it dangerous to go for the kills either because of jungle pressure. Bring back the Corki/Lucian with Leo/Naut lane that can potentially secure a all in 100-0 kill at lvl 3, that way they can have lane pressure onto scalers without too much risk.

  2. Diversity will be achieved. Right now taking things like Vlad or Casseopia mid, even Orianna can be a bit tricky because of there slightly slower early game, the option to bring kill pressure out of bot lane can turn the meta on it's head and say hey, the mid lane isn't buying time for the bot lane this game, this time it's the other way around.

  3. Assassin mid laners. One of the big problems with assassins in pro play has often been the AD-AP mix issue. Even when assassins are strong there is a problem of having to diversify damage, so many pro teams will not opt into a Zed or Talon mid, or go for that yolo Pantheon counter to Kassadin because they are afraid of outscaling in the latter parts of the mid game. It's too risky. Well then there's Rumble top to help, but the problem is that's only one champion and in a meta where damage top laners and tanks both exist, you can't really afford to pick Rumble until you know that the enemy team is going for a tank top and not something like Camille or Jayce. But, imagine a world where you could first pick Corki as a flex, then the enemy doesn't know if they need to be banning/picking away zed/talon cuz Corki going bot, or if you are going for scaling and they should be banning team fighters who can protect a Corki mid + marksman bot comp. Same deal with Lucian, you could first pick him, if they pick a counter to him mid, you just send him bot, if they don't you could open up the tank jungle-tank support- rumble top option with the double marksmen from mid and bot. Also an inherent weakness of assassin mid laners is wave clear, so if you took a Zed or a Talon mid, Corki can actually help cover this earlier than other marksman as he has two spells to help clear in his Q-E where other champs need to get some items or a few levels in their spell.

  4. They would not be op. Poke and utility ADC's are strong enough right now that having other marksmen who could put legit 100-0 pressure on them is not broken because with just a few good trades low range guys like Lucian can easily be put into a HP range where they don't want to fully commit to a kill. They also can get pushed in fairly easily. My idea for Lucian would be this, add a small amount of base damage (like maybe 10) to his Q, then make it so that if he hits his W on a champion his next Double Tap proc or Q on the target will hit for a bit extra bonus damage, again maybe like 10. The idea here is you don't want to buff his wave clear because that's one of his counters, so Q only gets a small direct buff. The addition of damage proc from his W into the rest of his combo plays well into his identity as a guy who chases and chains combos, and his W remains an enabling/mobility spell rather than something that's good for last hitting or poking.

Evil Yasuo1 votes

The solution is to give assassins their burst speeds back. 1 down so far (rengar)

Infernape1 votes

-cries in LeBlanc-

Evil Yasuo1 votes

{quoted}

-cries in LeBlanc-

Oh yeah, she's getting her's too. So 2 down so far.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Need to draw focus away from bot lane, discouraging the clownfiestas that lead to snowballing. Increase gold itemization for ADCs Reinforce turrets in bot lane. Since bot is supposed to be a farm lane, you could even argue that the turrets could be stronger than other lanes.Yes, it promotes lane switching, but why is that so big of an issue? Alternatively, have some other way to weaken ADC sieging power. Lower rune power levels

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